If JHU is such an amazing school for pre-meds...

<p>Bigredmed, you are mistaken. The committee here does not limit who applies. There is no manipulation of the numbers, or rejection of applications by the committee for being inferior. They will write a recommendation for everyone who is applying. The quality of the application will be based upon the student's resume and where he's applying. This is where confusion sets in. Having a bad recommendation is not given to all students with bad resumes. It is dependant upon where they apply. If students where consistently given bad recommendations, Hopkins would not place a large percentage of pre-meds in to medical school. </p>

<p>The committee is not there to reject kids applications to medical school. THey are there to write recs based on upon the students' records and to where they are applying. In fact, it ends up being better than a form letter in almost all cases. The only exceptions are the over-zealous students with crappy records applying to med schools they couldn't hack.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Extremely selective with the quotations, Sakky. Your representation doesn't convey the meaning of the article. How about </p>

<p>"You're not consigned to the scrap-heap if you don't get in the first time," said Fishbein, "and we will be here to support you the whole way, even after you graduate."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Of course I am being selective with my quotes! The rest of the article basically deals with how the premed committee serves to help those particular students who are doing well. I have never disputed that the top JHU students do well for themselves. The interesting question to me is - what about those who DON'T do well? What happens to them? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Further, Sakky, JHU does send the highest percentage of students to Graduate school. "83 percent of Johns Hopkins students go on to graduate school (about half immediately after graduation), the highest percentage of any school in the nation." From 2006. This is states on many of Hopkins' websites.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If so, then would you mind linking to these websites? </p>

<p>
[quote]
BDM, Hopkins places students at every large consulting firm and most large Ibanks as well as in many other good government and private sector areas. Much better than many schools. Look at the career center website.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But again, that's missing the point. Again, nobody is disputing that the top students do well for themselves. The relevant question, again, is, what about those students who are at the bottom of the class? </p>

<p>
[quote]
I just read post #43. What you don't seem to understand is, that 90+% of premeds go to medical school from Hopkins.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, as stated by BDM above, what you mean to say is that 90% of premeds * that apply to med-school * will get in. Plenty of premeds at any school, Hopkins included, don't even bother to apply. For example, plenty of premeds at any school don't even manage to complete the premed course sequence because they find it to be too difficult. Even of those that do, some complete the sequence with such poor grades that they know they're not going to get in anywhere, so why even apply? For example, if you get straight C-'s in all of your premed courses, come on, you know you're not getting in anywhere. And even of those that do reasonably well in those courses, some will absolutely bomb the MCAT and therefore decide not to apply. </p>

<p>But the point is, at any school, the percentage of premeds who actually apply to med-school are only a subset of the total number of premeds at that school. I know quite a few people (granted, not Hopkins people) who really wanted to be doctors, but never even applied to med-school because their grades/MCAT scores were just too low such that they knew they weren't going to get in anywhere. </p>

<p>But anyway, the point is, to date, nobody has yet satisfactorily explained to me why you (potentially) need to sink bad applicants in order to help your good ones. I've said it before, I'll say it again - if you can't say something good about somebody, why not just say nothing at all? Why do you have to dis' somebody publicly? </p>

<p>Look, the poorly-performing JHU premed in't going to take anything away from the top JHU students anyway. For example, a guy with a 2.9 GPA and a mediocre MCAT score who still insists on applying to med-school isn't going to take away a spot from the superstar JHU premed who's trying to get into Harvard Medical School. Competitively speaking, he's not even in the same universe. So what's the harm in just giving that mediocre premed a neutral form letter so that he can apply to some no-name med-schools or osteopathy schools? His chances are already low to begin with - so what's the point in lowering them even further by tattooing him with a bad rec? </p>

<p>what I gather from coolguyusa and darkhope is that JHU is basically playing reverse Robin Hood - you're taking away from the poor performers in order to boost the top students. That to me is already rather odious. But that's not even the full story, for I rather doubt that the top students are even really being boosted at all. After all, think about it. How exactly is a top JHU premed helped when the mediocre premeds get bad rec's? Why does that help? Let's face it. The top premeds and the mediocre premeds are probably not even applying to the same tier of med-schools anyway, and if they are, the mediocre applicant won't even make it past the first screen of the top med-schools. Hence, the top and mediocre premeds are never realistically compared by the same med-school adcom in the same process anyway. Secondly, even if miraculously they were compared together, they STILL would certainly not be compared head-to-head against each other such that the committee letter takes precedence. For that to happen, you would have to have a med-school adcom who had 1 spot left and 2 applicants left to consider - a top JHU premed and a mediocre one - and then use the committee letters to decide between them. Come on, is that really going to happen? Again, the mediocre premed will almost certainly have been eliminated in the process long before it ever got to that point. Better grades, better MCAT scores - the top JHU premed is superior to the mediocre one in every possible way such that a committee letter isn't going to make much of a difference.</p>

<p>Hence, I still do not see how the top JHU premeds gain anything by having the mediocre JHU premeds get branded with negative recs. Like I said, keep giving the top premeds stellar rec's. I have never disputed the value in this. But, let's be honest. It's clear to me how the mediocre premeds lose out when they are tagged with bad rec's as opposed to neutral rec's. But who really gains from this situation? Does anybody really gain anything? Economists would say that this situation is Pareto-suboptimal - that some people lose, but nobody gains. This is the case of reverse Robin Hood, except that the top students aren't even really gaining anything. Seems to me that you're hurting the bad students just for the sake of hurting them. It's not a zero-sum game, it's a "negative-sum" game.</p>

<p>mediocre premeds do not get branded w/ negative recs if that was so...then wow...neg recs must not be so bad since so many mediocre premeds get into med school o.O</p>

<p>
[quote]
If students where consistently given bad recommendations, Hopkins would not place a large percentage of pre-meds in to medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, that's not logically accurate. Like BDM said, and the article I posted said, the committee might well be threatening those students with bad rec's in an attempt to convince them to not even apply at all, thereby keeping the 90% figure intact. </p>

<p>Again, consider this quote:</p>

<p>"Yet not all students are able to put a positive spin on their experience like Palaganas. Recent premed graduate Brett Gutterman felt that Fishbein and Savage discourage students who may actually have a chance of being admitted to medical school."</p>

<p>""I feel that they try to demean people who's grades are marginal in order to convince them not to go to medical school," he said. The result is, said Gutterman, that people who could get in marginally with a 3.2 do not even apply. "They think people won't get in, but I personally know people who've gotten in with a sub-3 GPA and sub-30 MCATs." ""</p>

<p><a href="http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/m...-2246962.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/m...-2246962.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The only exceptions are the over-zealous students with crappy records applying to med schools they couldn't hack.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See - right there, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If a student is applying to a med-school he can't hack, then it's up to that med-school's adcom to reject that candidate. It's that med-school adcom who should ultimately determine whether that student can or cannot hack that particular med-school. It's hard enough to get into med-school these days, especially for a poorly-performing premed, without your own undergraduate school making snarky comments about you. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Further, Sakky, JHU does send the highest percentage of students to Graduate school. "83 percent of Johns Hopkins students go on to graduate school (about half immediately after graduation), the highest percentage of any school in the nation." From 2006. This is states on many of Hopkins' websites.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The claim that this is the 'highest percentage of any school in the nation' intrigues me greatly. I would love to see some evidence of this. In particular, a school like Caltech, and possibly also MIT, are schools that immediately come to mind that I strongly suspect have a higher percentage of students who go on to graduate school. Think of it this way. As can be seen in the following link, 42% of Caltech undergrads in 1991-1995 eventually received their science/engineering PhD's - by far the highest percentage of any undergrad school. And that's not even talking about those Caltech undergrads who got PhD's in non-science/engineering subjects (i.e. economics or math), or who got just master's degrees or professional degrees. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/program/natSciEngrAtSwat.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/program/natSciEngrAtSwat.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So the point is, I have reason to doubt that JHU really does truly produce the 'highest' percentage of students who eventually receive graduate degrees of any school in the country. If anybody wants to show me evidence, let's see it.</p>

<p>"So what's the harm in just giving that mediocre premed a neutral form letter so that he can apply to some no-name med-schools or osteopathy schools? His chances are already low to begin with - so what's the point in lowering them even further by tattooing him with a bad rec?"</p>

<p>Aside from your condescension, I see you have not been reading my posts. Hopkins in fact gives GOOD (i.e. better than neutral) recommendations to even poor students applying to mediocre medical schools. Mediocre premed students get in to mediocre and osteopathic medical schools all the time from Hopkins.
Hopkins never ruins a students chances.
And moreover, your logic is incorrect. How many poor students would think to apply to a great medical school. Your stating that it's the job of the med school adcoms to decide is moot. With the advising we get here, Hopkins students know where it is reasonable to apply.</p>

<p>People hardly ever get bad recommendations. You're making it seem like a common occurrence. </p>

<p>AS for highest percentage, it's claimed here: <a href="http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/johns_hopkins_university.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/johns_hopkins_university.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>under the students section,</p>

<p>here: <a href="http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency/en/wikipedia/j/jo/johns_hopkins_university.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency/en/wikipedia/j/jo/johns_hopkins_university.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>about a quarter down the page</p>

<p>here: <a href="http://web.jhu.edu/president/messages/letters/2000/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.jhu.edu/president/messages/letters/2000/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>in the third to last paragraph, although Brody writes "one of the highest."</p>

<p>And it's written on countless admissions brochures, outlines and prospectae. You can try to call the admissions office bluff, but I doubt the admissions office of one of the finest institutions in the nation is lying to it's prospective students.</p>

<p>Or do you not realize that graduate degrees include but are not limited to Ph.Ds?</p>

<p>Further, I'm not sure you know what these letters are. They're not "make or break it" letters. They are cover letters which summarize the application to follow. They summarize professors recommendations and speak to the experience and the academic record of the student. The committee also interviews the student to get to know him. A bad recommendation is nothing more than a statement something along the lines of "His academic performance left something to be desired." Which would be said about any student applying to any graduate school from any undergraduate school with a poor record.</p>

<p>These letters don't say "we strongly urge you to reject admission for this student." These letters don't even hint at that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Aside from your condescension, I see you have not been reading my posts. Hopkins in fact gives GOOD (i.e. better than neutral) recommendations to even poor students applying to mediocre medical schools. Mediocre premed students get in to mediocre and osteopathic medical schools all the time from Hopkins.
Hopkins never ruins a students chances.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Trust me, I've been reading your posts quite carefully. And what you are saying does not square with what alumni Brett Gutterman said. Here is his quote again.</p>

<p>"Again, consider this quote:</p>

<p>"Yet not all students are able to put a positive spin on their experience like Palaganas. Recent premed graduate Brett Gutterman felt that Fishbein and Savage discourage students who may actually have a chance of being admitted to medical school."</p>

<p>""I feel that they try to demean people who's grades are marginal in order to convince them not to go to medical school," he said. The result is, said Gutterman, that people who could get in marginally with a 3.2 do not even apply. "They think people won't get in, but I personally know people who've gotten in with a sub-3 GPA and sub-30 MCATs." ""</p>

<p><a href="http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/m...-2246962.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/m...-2246962.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So are you prepared to say that he's wrong? </p>

<p>
[quote]
AS for highest percentage, it's claimed here: <a href="http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/john...university.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/john...university.htm&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, this is a reprint of wikipedia. I think we all know how reliable wikipedia can be. Don't get me wrong. I like wikipedia. But when stats like that are asserted without accompanying references, that's not exactly the strongest proof in the world. After all, I can go to the wikipedia article of Eastern Connecticut State University and edit it to say that it has the highest grad-school attainment rate in the country. Anybody can.</p>

<p>
[quote]
here: <a href="http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency...niversity.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency...niversity.html&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>ANOTHER wikipedia reprint (look at the URL if you don't believe me). See above. </p>

<p>
[quote]
here: <a href="http://web.jhu.edu/president/messages/letters/2000/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.jhu.edu/president/messages/letters/2000/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>in the third to last paragraph, although Brody writes "one of the highest."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Aha. Not THAT one I can believe. I can certainly believe that it is 'one of the highest', not least because that phrase is necessarily vague. After all, what does that really mean? Top 10? Top 100? Top 500? It is unclear. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I don't dispute that JHU probably has one of the highest rates in the country. The problem is with asserting that it has THE highest. The only thing you have is wikipedia and its reprints, and that's not exactly strong proof. </p>

<p>But besides, ask yourself this. If JHU really does have "the highest" graduate degree attainment rate, then why did your President only assert "one of the highest"? Why would he make a weaker assertion, if a stronger one is valid? If you're really #1, why wouldn't your President say so? I think your President is thinking what I'm thinking - in that that claim of being #1 is questionable, so he wisely backed off from it. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Or do you not realize that graduate degrees include but are not limited to Ph.Ds?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And do you not realize what I wrote? It seems to me that you didn't read my posts carefully, so why don't you read it again? I EXPLICITLY stated that graduate degrees included all sorts of degrees. 42% of Caltech undergrads get PhD's in science and engineering. And that's JUST Phd's in science and engineering. What about other sorts of graduate degrees? Add it all up and I strongly suspect that a higher percentage of Caltech undergrads will go on to graduate school of some kind, compared to JHU students. </p>

<p>But nevertheless, other than dodgy, unreferenced wikipedia sources, I see no proof that JHU has "the highest" graduate degree attainment rate. Even your President refrained from making such an assertion.</p>

<p>I am not necessarily going to say he (Gutterman) is wrong, but the pre-professional advising office does not makes up the committee that we have been discussing. Further, you don't know where he wanted to apply. It could have been the case that he went in there wanting to go to Hopkins Yale or even UMaryland, and a 3.2 is not going to get anyone into any of those schools. This is all merely speculation, just as you, who has no affiliation with this university, are speculating about its practices and what it says.</p>

<p>As a Hopkins students, I CAN say that I know more Hopkins students and graduates than you and have spoken to Hopkins students and graduates in every step of applying to medical school (I myself and not a premed). Very few, if any, feel the same way that Gutterman does or did. Most find the pre-professional advising extremely helpful. But as you continually remind us, aren't we talking about the practice of the committee that writes recommendations?</p>

<p>As per highest graduate degree attainment. I could go to the admissions office, find the brochures, scan them all and post them here. But I'm not sure it's worth it because surely you'll discredit those, somehow.</p>

<p>The bottom line is, ANY school that screens (even screen the most absurdly unlikely candidates) is a school I would not want to attend. The advising may be great, the facilities may be awesome, the professors may be world class, but if I want to apply to medical school, even if my stats are really really low, I expect my school to support my aspirations. JHU will support you with open arms if you fall into their "ranges," but if you don't, you will be discouraged, and that is the VERY reason why I would not go to Hopkins.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am not necessarily going to say he (Gutterman) is wrong, but the pre-professional advising office does not makes up the committee that we have been discussing. Further, you don't know where he wanted to apply. It could have been the case that he went in there wanting to go to Hopkins Yale or even UMaryland, and a 3.2 is not going to get anyone into any of those schools. This is all merely speculation, just as you, who has no affiliation with this university, are speculating about its practices and what it says.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But take that scenario you described, because that's precisely what I'm talking about. Let's say the guy comes in with a 3.2 and insists on applying to Harvard, Yale, or even UMaryland. You said it youself - he's not going to get in with that GPA. So then what's the harm in giving him a strong rec, or at least, a neutral rec (hence, not a bad rec)? Like you said - he's not going to get in anyway, so there is little point in tagging the guy with a bad rec. Like bruinboy said, I think it's reasonable for students who are paying good money for a private school education to want somebody that acts on their behalf. </p>

<p>
[quote]
As a Hopkins students, I CAN say that I know more Hopkins students and graduates than you and have spoken to Hopkins students and graduates in every step of applying to medical school (I myself and not a premed). Very few, if any, feel the same way that Gutterman does or did. Most find the pre-professional advising extremely helpful. But as you continually remind us, aren't we talking about the practice of the committee that writes recommendations?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am not disputing that the process helps the majority of the students at JHU. I am, again, simply asking what happens to that minority of students who are at the bottom of the class? what about them? Seems to me that JHU doesn't really care about those students who are doing poorly. </p>

<p>
[quote]
As per highest graduate degree attainment. I could go to the admissions office, find the brochures, scan them all and post them here. But I'm not sure it's worth it because surely you'll discredit those, somehow.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Because I don't believe the stats. And neither does your President, evidently. Otherwise, why would he make the weaker claim of "one of the highest", rather than "THE highest"?</p>

<p>"So then what's the harm in giving him a strong rec, or at least, a neutral rec"
it seems like the arguments are getting repetitive lol and so are the responses =D hehe in order to promote the general student body, it is necessary to not provide good recs to everyone. I think for the students that are not doing well...most likely the future prospects of me...will be advised to take a year off than apply...they are not forgotten lol... </p>

<p>coolguyusa...is only partially right...jhu has the largest % of grads entering grad/prof school immediately following 4 yrs of undergrad compared w/ any of the top 50 universities(excluding lac...did not check on those) which provided data to us news. After 10 yrs...i think the largest % goes to another school lol...</p>

<p>This has got to be the craziest discussion ever. People are citing sources and ppl are refuting points.</p>

<p>Well I'm going to JHU. My cousin went to JHU and she got honors and went into medical school.</p>

<p>The bottom line is this. There are lots of college students who just wants to party. If you just party, failing is inevitable. Its kinda hard for an advisor to write you a good rec when you haven't even put up a good fight.</p>

<p>JHU is an awesome school that'll set you up with lots of opportunities. If you don't take advantage of anything, you might as well go to your state school.</p>

<p>If you happen to look at mdapplicants, a huge factor I seem to notice is research. There is no better place to find research opportunities than JHU.</p>

<p>I happened across this thread and would like to comment. </p>

<p>I am a parent of a kid who has applied to JHU, who is interested and involved in science, but not sure she wants to be a doctor. I am an MD. I went to Harvard for undergrad, and I am married to a JHU alum. I've been in practice for 20 years (faculty in big university/researcher). </p>

<p>Yes, medicine is competitive, possibly from the moment of forming the thought that you may wish to enter the field :(. It is important to be as prepared as you can be, and to stack your deck if you can. JHU does a good job of preparing people at every level, IMHO--the college is great; the med school grads I've seen as residents are smart, conscientious and competitive; basic and clinical research are top-notch, etc. </p>

<p>It's a great place, but JHU has had a reputation for having more competitive atmosphere than average [and possibly than is necessary? your choice] for decades. Often there is some truth to these legends. Anyone considering JHU should make sure it works for them. </p>

<p>Lastly, wherever you go, please arrange to step back, take a breath, and live life a little, somewhere along the line, for the sake of your future patients! In medicine, it is key to be grounded, ethical, and thoughtful. Perspective is a requirement. So are empathy, common sense, patience, and the ability to truly step into another person's moccasins for a while. Once you get on the treadmill of being in this job, it is hard to find times and ways to step off. It can be difficult for people who have always lived in a bubble of smart, capable, and competitive people to deal with real-life problems of the not-so-capable, or the socially disadvantaged. Consider whether being at a small-ish, highly competitive university with a lot of pre-meds would stifle your ability to simply live, or think about issues other than your GPA for any length of time---because it is critical that you be able to do these things while you are young. JMHO. </p>

<p>Best of luck to all.</p>

<p>actually...something that i said above might not be right regarding the mean gpa...
coolguyusa:
can you plz scan the piece of data from the regist. office to either debunk or support the comment regarding hopkins having deflation or inflation...there's so many contradictory things said by current students at jhu...and does hopkins even provide such a thing as a average gpa data? o.O or was spec07...uh...just mistaken...lol</p>

<p>For pre-law students, JHU is the third most grade-deflated school in the country besides the military academies.</p>

<p>Interestingly, Penn is #2.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=183418%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=183418&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>=D tys bdm!</p>

<p>The important thing to realize is that grade deflation is not in and of itself an indictment of a school, which is the entire point of the thread I've linked to. You'd be crazy to tell kids that Penn's going to kill their chances.</p>

<p>You'd be similarly crazy to tell kids that deflation at Hopkins, in and of itself, is going to kill their chances.</p>