If the Ivy League added 2 schools, which would they be?

College Search & Selection
401

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Colgate was considered a stronger academic school than Brown until the 1970's

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<p>gellino, with all due respect, you've stated this more than once in various forms, but do you justify this kind of statement? i know that you've stated "general reading, older people in the forum, etc." but that's nothing to hang your hat on is it?</p>

<p>for example, it's hard enough for people to agree "which school is stronger" academically even today with all of the information, transparency, data points, rankings, etc. - and that's in today's world.</p>

<p>so it begs the question of how one even begins to make a reasonably accurate assessment of academic conditions 25 years ago? there are NO rankings, frankly, there are NO meaningful data points: SAT ranges? GPA? Merit scholars? Nothing.</p>

<p>i mean there isn't some official 1800-1970s study of Brown and Colgate that concludes that Colgate was superior to Brown before 1970 is there? furthermore, i've never heard of Colgate being that prominent as an academic powerhouse, be it in the 1800s or the 1920, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s... a decent school? yeah definitely, but let's not get carried away.</p>

<p>now Brown may not have been as powerful as they are now (and the introduction of its new curriculum in '69 certainly had a significant impact on the university, that we can agree on) - but any underlying assumption that Brown was some kind of floundering community college before that is totally ludicrous. Back in the day it was a "second choice" school to Harvard, Yale and Princeton (to a certain degree that it is today) - that we can agree - but to suggest that Colgate was "superior"? show me any shred of evidence.</p>

<p>i'm sorry, but unless you come up with something substantial - i'm going to call total BS.</p>

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<p>I'm not saying Colgate was an academic powerhouse (depending on what that means), but think that it has always been considered a good school. I think it's more Brown's meteoric rise. At no point was I saying that Brown was a floundering community college. I've seen several comments on here by people that seem to be a generation older than me that compared Brown in the 1950's and 1960's to be on a level slightly better than Trinity and Brandeis (which is around where I'd say Colgate is). This also reinforces my Dad's figment of being stuck in the '50's/60's mindset during my application process where I was allowed to apply to Colgate, but not Brown because he didn't consider it a good enough school. The only other reference point I have is my uncle applied for the class of 1969 and Colgate was his first choice, but he was rejected and had to settle for his second choice acceptance into Brown instead. I'll grant you I don't have SAT avgs from the 1960's (if people even followed and posted such things readily then), but people somehow seemed be informed on colleges and managed to select suitable schools for themselves without any rankings books. So, I just wanted to state in response to many posts on here implying that Brown is included in the Ivy League over Colgate because it was a better academic school was not only potentially inaccurate, but not necesarily even much of the criteria used at the time.</p>

403

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I'd love to see any shred of hard evidence to any of these "claims" about other schools who were supposedly courted to join the Ivies (e.g. NU, Colgate, etc.)</p>

<p>Coincidentally, they all have the same kind of story and outcome, "yeah, they wanted us to join back in the day, but we decided it just wasn't for us..."

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<p>Right - just b/c YOU haven't seen anything - it must mean that these "claims" are nothing but wishful fairytales (nevermind the fact, that I must have also completely wasted my time making up the details to the "story").</p>

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While I have seen no evidence of Northwestern attempting to join the Ivy League, they were certainly known for futility for football in the '80's and did, indeed, play Princeton (a 37-0 victory) in 1986. However, Colgate played Duke in 1991 and this didn't mean they were attempting to join the ACC.

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<p>It takes an understanding of the business of collegiate football to understand that there is a BIG difference btwn the two situations.</p>

<p>Back in the '80s/'90s - it was extremely rare for any team from a major conference to play a Div1-AA school.</p>

<p>But in the rare cases where it did occurr, the Div1-AA school ALWAYS TRAVELED to the big conference school to serve as fodder (which, in return, they would get handsomely compensated).</p>

<p>When Colgate played Duke in 1991, Colgate went down to Durham - when Northwestern played Princeton in 1986, the game was at Palmer Stadium.</p>

<p>Collegiate football is big business and there is no financial reason for Northwestern to have scheduled an AWAY game with an Ivy League school (much less, schedule a number of them).</p>

<p>The NU/Princeton game is probably the only time a major conf. school played a Div1-AA team, much less, an Ivy League team as an away game.</p>

<p>Northwestern would have never scheduled such a game unless there was an ulterior motive.</p>

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<p>I would agree with the notion of politics of scheduling home/away games. Even in the '40's and '50s almost all the games for Harvard, Yale, Princeton were home games, except among each other.</p>

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<p>I was there in 1972, Ed Marinaro was still on campus, and nobody cared about footbal even then. I was not there in 1921 or before. However I'm not sure that era should be counted on to shape contemporary policy.</p>

<p>Hockey was of course more recent. But also more relevant in recent times IMO.</p>

406

<p>Cornell played Stanford (in Palo Alto) in 1991 to commemorate Stanford's 100th Anniversary and Cornell's helping hand in getting the Leland Stanford Junior College started.</p>

<p><a href="http://gostanford.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/091805aad.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://gostanford.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/091805aad.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Stanford crushed Cornell 56-6.</p>

<p>Oh what a joy it would be to have athletic scholarships!</p>

407

<p>I would add MIT and Colgate, and name Wellesley and Wesleyan as honorary Ivies, should they choose to join.</p>

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<p>gellino, with all due respect, just because your dad or uncle thinks (thought) that Colgate is (was) > Brown isn't really a compelling/ valid enough of a reason for you to make a blanket statement as such. i mean, YOU can hold that opinion all you want, but presenting it as some kind of historical fact is pushing it. finally, what does it say about your dad's views that he still thinks that Colgate is all that great (or conversely that Brown just isn't all that good)? </p>

<p>at any rate, that's all i really wanted to add - it's not a major deal - i just wanted to respond because i noticed you stating as such a couple of times, and was always curious as to why you held that opinion and further why you felt so confident about the matter.</p>

409

<p>"The NU/Princeton game is probably the only time a major conf. school played a Div1-AA team, much less, an Ivy League team as an away game."</p>

<p>-Uh, Northwestern played a Div 1-AA school LAST WEEK (New Hampshire), and lost!</p>

<p>"Northwestern would have never scheduled such a game unless there was an ulterior motive."</p>

<p>-That’s ridiculous. Northwestern used to play Duke early every season, something that doesn’t happen anymore. Maybe that’s just a failed attempt to join the ACC…..</p>

410

<p>well, if anything ... at least this thread is now about sports rather than academics.</p>

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<p>Well, the Ivy League is a sports conference....</p>

412

<p>How about Northwestern and Northeastern?</p>

413

<p>"The NU/Princeton game is probably the only time a major conf. school played a Div1-AA team, much less, an Ivy League team as an b]away** game."</p>

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Uh, Northwestern played a Div 1-AA school LAST WEEK (New Hampshire), and lost!

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<p>And the game was in Evanston and was not an away game (UNH was paid $400,000 for the game).</p>

<p>Playing Div-1AA teams is commonplace today, since, after Div-1A went to a 12 game schedule (up from 11), a win against a Div-1AA team counts towards bowl consideration (but the Div-1AA team always travels to the major conference team's location - even mid-major Div-1A teams travel to a major conf team's location due to $$$ considerations).</p>

<p>Yeah, it was a "bad" loss - but NU had a new QB, head coach, OC and they were on an emotional down after the game against their former head coach's alma mater (who had passed away from a heart attack this summer) the week before (plus, UNH is the top-ranked team in Div-1AA, and Duke and Colorado had already lost to some crappy/middling Div-1AA teams this season).</p>

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<p>"Northwestern would have never scheduled such a game unless there was an ulterior motive."</p>

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-That’s ridiculous. Northwestern used to play Duke early every season, something that doesn’t happen anymore. Maybe that’s just a failed attempt to join the ACC…..

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<p>This statement is completely idiotic. </p>

<p>No - NU had Duke on its schedule as a series for a couple of seasons a number of years ago and Duke is back on the schedule for a 2-game series the next 2 years (why doesn't this mean that Duke wants to join the B10, since the B10 is an overall better academic conference than the ACC?).</p>

<p>NU used to play Stanford and Vandy as well (I guess that means they wanted to join the Pac-10 and SEC as well, or vice versa); NU plays MAC schools (I guess that means they want to join the MAC); OSU played Texas, Rutgers played UNC and Illinois, etc. (I guess this means they all want to join other conferences).</p>

<p>People who know nothing about collegiate football shouldn't post as if they know something about it.</p>

414

<p>“This statement is completely idiotic. </p>

<p>No - NU had Duke on its schedule as a series for a couple of seasons a number of years ago and Duke is back on the schedule for a 2-game series the next 2 years (why doesn't this mean that Duke wants to join the B10, since the B10 is an overall better academic conference than the ACC?).</p>

<p>NU used to play Stanford and Vandy as well (I guess that means they wanted to join the Pac-10 and SEC as well, or vice versa); NU plays MAC schools (I guess that means they want to join the MAC); OSU played Texas, Rutgers played UNC and Illinois, etc. (I guess this means they all want to join other conferences).”</p>

<p>You clearly don’t understand sarcasm. That’s pretty sad. What I was saying is that your claiming that there were other motives behind Northwestern playing Ivy League schools is flawed, flawed for the reasons that you yourself just listed. Thanks for proving yourself wrong. </p>

<p>“People who know nothing about collegiate football shouldn't post as if they know something about it.”</p>

<p>I know nothing about it? I know enough to say that Northwestern playing Princeton was not because Northwestern wanted to join the Ivy League. This is completely unfounded. There is no evidence to support the claim that the school wanted anything to do with the Ivy League, other than playing against some of its teams. I’m sorry, but Northwestern did not schedule games with Ivy League teams to become part of the Ivy League, uneconomical or not.</p>

<p>Now if you will excuse me, I have a football game to attend.</p>

415

<p>
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You clearly don’t understand sarcasm. That’s pretty sad. What I was saying is that your claiming that there were other motives behind Northwestern playing Ivy League schools is flawed, flawed for the reasons that you yourself just listed. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

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<p>Actually, it's YOU who doesn't understand sarcasm - the lowest form of humor, btw (you were trying to refute my statement - which I completely understood). </p>

<p>Now, that's really sad.</p>

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[quote]
I know nothing about it? I know enough to say that Northwestern playing Princeton was not because Northwestern wanted to join the Ivy League. This is completely unfounded. There is no evidence to support the claim that the school wanted anything to do with the Ivy League, other than playing against some of its teams. I’m sorry, but Northwestern did not schedule games with Ivy League teams to become part of the Ivy League, uneconomical or not.</p>

<p>Now if you will excuse me, I have a football game to attend.

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<p>Once again you show your complete ignorance about the business/economics of collegiate football.</p>

<p>A major conference school would never play (or have scheduled in the first place) an AWAY game at a Div-IAA (much less a mid-major Div-IA school) unless there was an ulterior motive - there's no financial incentive to do so (if anything, NU traveling to Palmer Stadium would have cost NU $$).</p>

<p>But NU didn't just schedule the Princeton game - they also had scheduled a number of other games with Ivy League teams (which were later cancelled). There is absolutely no reason for a major conf. team to schedule a series of games with the Ivy League (financially, it would be disatrous for the finances of the athletic dept.), much less play them as away games.</p>

<p>If anything is unfounded - it's your clueless assertions. </p>

<p>I'm sure the guy I had spoken to, who had worked in NU's athletic dept. in the 80's (and was involved in the scheduling and cancellation of the games with the Ivy League), made up this "story" just for the hell of it.</p>

<p>Enjoy the game.</p>

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<p>“If anything is unfounded - it's your clueless assertions. </p>

<p>I'm sure the guy I had spoken to, who had worked in NU's athletic dept. in the 80's (and was involved in the scheduling and cancellation of the games with the Ivy League), made up this "story" just for the hell of it.”</p>

<p>MY clueless assertions? Your assertions are the ones that are clueless. Show me one piece of evidence stating that the scheduled games were more than just poor economic planning on the part of the athletics director, and I will believe you. You can claim to have spoken with the person who was responsible for the scheduling of the games all you want. Any and all decisions to switch conferences would have to come from the board of trustees itself; moreover, any votes or measures taken on the action would be in the university archive, and yet they are not. People make these baseless claims about Northwestern trying to join the Ivy League in the 80’s and yet there is no record if it ever happening, why? </p>

<p>Again, show something, a press release, statement of intent, anything, and I shall believe you. Until that time, don’t pass your beliefs off as truth.</p>

417

<p>The NY Times today published a listing of the choices students (in a large and diverse sample of 3200) actually make between elite colleges after they have been admitted. The main point of the article was to prove Harvard's dominant position, but the interesting thing is that Georgetown and Duke were almost clones of each other ranking right behind the Ivies, MIT and Stanford. This is further proof, that Georgetown and Duke should be members 9 and 10 of the Ivy League and would fit right in. On a de facto basis, they already fit in.<br>
(Today Georgtown played a respetable game with the Ivy League's strongest team, Brown while Duke was annihilated by VA. Tech in the ACC. Athletically, this move makes increasing sense).</p>

<p>C'mon administrators lets get this done. Catholics and Southerners will add diversity and opportunities for some very good and reasonable travel.</p>

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<p>when was this NYT study published? any links?</p>

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<p>Today's Sunday paper-Week in Review section</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/weekinreview/17leonhardt.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/weekinreview/17leonhardt.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The economists who did this should refine their next survey to separate out Wharton and Georgetown SFS.</p>