if you must start at county, do you "fire drill" applications to 4-yrs?

Parent Cafe
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<p>H and I see that S will have to start at County, for both financial and academic reasons. If he measures up at County, there will be money for him to finish a 4-yr degree elsewhere. It is a very good CC with a 65% rate of transfer out to 4-yr schools. He is now in 10th grade. He is bright with LDs, and despite years of extra help and an 80% work load, he is in the bottom of his class with low test scores and no real career goals. In fairness, it is an unusually hard, competitive school in an affluent NYC suburb, essentially a public prep school, so he would probably rank higher in a lot of other high schools around the country.</p>

<p>Without digressing into too many details, please trust me, we do not qualify for need-based aid, S will not qualify for merit aid, and despite years of saving, we still have some budgetary limitations for college. It would be far worse for him to run out of money before finishing a degree, or to get in over his head academically and generate an ugly transcript that will dog him.</p>

<p>We have encouraged him to consider the skilled trades, but for now he wants college. He would LOVE to go away in the fall after 12th grade, because it sounds like fun. He does not acknowledge the pitfalls. His close friends are bright without LDs, from money, who expect to go to elite private colleges (and probably will). His friends are constantly talking trash to him about County. He is demoralized and resents what we are saying.</p>

<p>My question is whether it is wise to continue showing him around to colleges, and ultimately to cooperate with the process of him applying to 4-year schools in the fall of 12th grade, knowing that it's just for the experience of it, and he must start at County.</p>

<p>Reasons to tour: to build enthusiasm and commitment for life after County, to motivate. To avoid having to start from scratch while enrolled at County and presumably working hard there. To include the younger sibling who needs to see schools for her own benefit, anyway.</p>

<p>Reasons to support him in applying: to let him hear it from the actual colleges, not just his parents, about whether he measures up. To learn how to apply while he still has access to teachers and GC in a very good, nurturing public HS (which he will not have when applying as a transfer from county). To send him to County secure in the knowledge that he will be a viable prospect to transfer out, if he holds it together. To have goals about improving his prospects for target transfer schools. To go through the financial aid drill and see first hand that we get nothing. To let him be part of the flurry of college planning activity that his friends will be absorbed with in 12th grade (yes, that is pathetic, I know.) To help him stay as serious as possible about his transcript through HS -- I don't want to give him the excuse of "oh, who cares; I'm only going to County anyway". Going into County as strong as possible will make you a better transfer candidate out. And if he should surprise us by getting in anywhere decent, he can decline for financial reasons and then remind the schools of that history when he is a transfer applicant in two years.</p>

<p>Reasons to forget about 4-year schools and stay focused solely on County: I don't want to give him false hope that we are going to relent, and then have him get some acceptances, only to make him even more upset when we look at the COA spreadsheet and tell him, once again, that he must start at County.</p>

<p>What have you seen? Have kids in his boat chalked up the application process as a worthwhile exercise, learned from it, and moved on to County a little more savvy and mature? Or is it just a waste of time and money that tends to confuse and disappoint the kid even further?</p>

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<p>What is “County”? Your local community college?</p>

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<p>You know, a lot of maturation and learning takes place between 10th and 12th grade. I think if he really knows now that his goal is college, let that motivate him for the next two years as he grows. There are colleges out there with great programs for LD kids; have you looked into those? You also have two years to work a little more on the financial aspects, and now is the time to consider what should be done to increase your chances for aid from schools. I think it is too soon to be telling your S that community college is his only choice. You could emphasize that it may become his only choice if he does not begin working harder, etc, but let his dreams motivate him. It’s wonderful that a kid who struggles in school is even thinking about more school --plenty decided to drop out. Could he benefit from extra tutoring, or summer school programs? Start discussing your S’s interests, and careers that may connect to those. Start helping him see the possibilities that are out there. A 15 year old who has no idea of possible careers can’t be expected to suddenly come up with ideas - they need guidance and good conversations, field trips, a first job, etc, to even begin to know what they may or may not picture for themselves in the future! This should be an exciting time of “what If”, don’t squash that too quickly. Also, consider that whether he lives at home, or away at a school, he will still be costing you money for meals, a car to get to school, insurance, etc. Maybe for him, your S will need to experience living away to help him learn skills for managing independent life. Whether it’s at 18 or 22, eventually he would move away, right? Either way, he will need your support financially and emotionally during that challenging period of life. There is more to young adulthood than just attending school; so much other stuff that has to be learned at the same time. Don’t stifle his overall growth just because he isn’t a top notch academic student…</p>

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<p>Yes, in our state they are called “county colleges”.</p>

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<p>

Good you cleared that up. When I hear “county” I think of jail. :)</p>

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<p>The way I understand this is this: the big problem here isn’t that his grades/stats are poor. The problem is that even if he WERE to raise his GPA and his test scores, you indicate you cannot afford to send him to a 4-year school even if he did get in. </p>

<p>Maybe it’s time for you and your spouse to be completely honest with your son: he will have to start at the county college because that’s the only viable financial option. </p>

<p>I do think that letting him visit 4 year schools without bringing this up is misleading to him.</p>

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<p>Students who start at community college can do quite well:
[Top</a> graduating senior a rags-to-academic-riches story](<a href=“Berkeley News | Berkeley”>Berkeley News | Berkeley)</p>

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<p>It is best to avoid creating unrealistic expectations of going straight to a four year school (especially some place expensive*) given both the grades / test scores and money situations.</p>

<p>That said, you shouldn’t completely give up on trying to improve the household finances, so if his academic record improves, and he can be admitted to a suitable four year school, there is a chance of avoiding the “cannot afford” letdown.</p>

<ul>
<li>SUNYs are relatively inexpensive, especially for in-state, but you did not mention how they would fit into your budget, either for four years, or for two years after attending community college.</li>
</ul>

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<p>katliamom – you’ve got it – we have a budget that does not include four years away. We have been explaining this to him since it became clear to us in 9th grade. And we explain that we can research and visit schools to think about what he may want for years three and four, and also so that he can properly articulate his program in the first two years. He knows that, he just doesn’t want to hear it. Also, if by some miracle we find that we can expand the budget, and he emerges as a much stronger student, then the prospects would broaden, and it would be important to have already toured and thought.</p>

<p>I don’t honestly see what is so bad about being a kid and having a budget of $80,000 to $100,000 handed to you for your education. But if you are in a no-aid position, in an expensive part of the country, that still means starting at County.</p>

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<p>This.</p>

<p>What are you going to do if he gets accepted into a school he loves and then he has to turn it down because you say so? I personally believe that parents should only allow kids to apply to schools that they can afford. Or are at least extremely clear with a kid if they are applying to a financial out of reach school, that it is only an “I wonder” application…and even that is an extremely slippery slope. So if you are saying you can’t afford anything but County, that is your answer. College applications are time consuming and are energy suckers…I don’t see the point in the big tease if you and your husband are firm in your position. (i.e., unwilling to take loans, etc if the perfect acceptance came in)</p>

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<p>Have you used the calculators on college websites to be sure you would not qualify for aid? I attended a private LAC for less than what it would have cost to attend our state flagship, and now my D is at a private University out of state for the same cost as one of the local state Universities. You really don’t know until you apply and see the results. What about your in-state university? If your S was able to get Staffords to help, would that make it do-able?
We had to tell my D we couldn’t afford her top-choice school after seeing the aid she was given. That was hard. She cried for an evening. We felt terrible. Grandparents questioned our decision. And then she considered her choices and went to her private U. She is happy, thriving, challenged, taking advantage of all the opportunities, and is glad things worked out the way they did. She wanted a big school in a city, is in a small school in a rural area - totally surprised and happier than she ever imagined a year ago!</p>

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<p>ucbalumnus, you are right, one of my best friends went to county in the 1970s and has since prospered as a tax lawyer. Her parents were in an equivalent position to us – the budget was 4 years at state or 2 and county and 2 anywhere else. She took the latter and finished at a very high-end private. The difference was that she was a very strong student, certain to finish in 8 semesters. Today, 60% of the kids do not finish in 12 semesters, and my son is not a strong student. In our state, the in-state public colleges are $25,000 if you live in the dorm. We can get the same price in NY state colleges, for example, as out-of-staters. And 8 semesters is a minimum of $100,000 if you are not qualified for aid. And the odds of a kid like this finishing in 8 semesters are not realistically good. You risk running out of money.</p>

<p>I believe that a kid in a bottom-tier undergrad school should not borrow for the sake of living away. He could finish a degree by commuting to our local state U for the last two years, if he were on an even tighter budget than he is. But he can afford to go away eventually if he does not overspend at first.</p>

<p>We digress a bit – has anyone seen kids in this position apply in 12th grade just for the experience? How did the kids handle it emotionally?</p>

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<p>Seems hard to imagine it being a good thing if the only results at the end will be:</p>

<ul>
<li>Outright rejections.</li>
<li>Acceptances at schools that are unaffordable.</li>
</ul>

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<p>collegeshopping and teachandmom, yes, you present two sides of the same coin. People say “you never know until you apply”, and it was in that spirit that I initially thought he should go ahead with the applications in 12th, to anywhere he wants, just to see what happens. </p>

<p>But there is a lot of information out there, including the preliminary FAFSA. I have read and researched and consulted and explored, talked to the accountant, financial aid people from colleges, etc., and without posting my tax return on CC, believe me, there will be NO MONEY from the schools or the government. (Yes, there are bottom tier privates that hand out “merit money” like lollipops because they like to say they charge $45,000 but they really only fill their classes at $35,000. Those schools have other pitfalls, and it would still be at least $40,000 more than a lot of state schools.) If people with bigger budgets look down their noses at me, I can live with that. We have what we have, and we have financial responsibilities beyond one child’s education.</p>

<p>Now that we realize this, it does begin to seem dangerous and irresponsible and a “big tease” to encourage the kid to submit those “you never know until you apply” applications when it really is pretty much knowable in our situation.</p>

<p>I am starting to think that the kindest thing for my son may be to take him to see schools as much as he wants, always with the reminder that we are looking to get ideas for life after County. But probably not to press him to do that, just to offer and to cooperate. And then in 12th grade, if he presses to submit some “roll the dice” applications for admission, we can let him do that, but with ample reminders about the budget.</p>

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<p>There are a lot of 4 year schools out there that accept students like him and have services to help. Why not seek those out if that is what he wants? I would say let him try a 4 year school first and then if that doesn’t work, have him go to a community college.</p>

<p>Doing a quick search there are 381 schools that come up stating that they accept everyone, 23 of those schools are in the NY region (NY, NJ, MD, etc.). I know nothing about these schools but one listed is Central Penn. College. They have on campus housing, LD assistance, co-programs with a technical college as well. Why not look for something like that?</p>

<p>Once he has an SAT/ACT score that might help with your selection process too. Did he happen to take the PSAT this year?</p>

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<p>Dear Field</p>

<p>I too live in an suburb near NYC which sends 99+% to 4 year schools, many to elites.</p>

<p>Trust me, some kids will not make it through Freshman Year, and will be back at “county,” same as DS, but their families will be 40k or more worse for the wear.</p>

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<p>mncollegemom, it is kind of you to look at the lists of schools. I have looked thoroughly. In the process, I realized that my goal is not simply to get him into a school somewhere, or even to get him through a school somewhere with a diploma. My goal is for him to be 25, debt-free, living under his own roof on his own earnings, having used our money wisely to become educationally qualified for a line of work that he likes and is well-enough suited for that he can succeed with it.</p>

<p>Working backward from that goal, I have also researched and found that it’s an overgeneralization to say that college grads earn more than people without 4-year degrees. A really interesting recent book by economist Robert Cherry notes that people with 4-year degrees from weaker schools usually earn less than people who enter the skilled trades or attain 2-year occupational certificates.</p>

<p>Stated differently, one can live more comfortably when certified to take x-rays or install boilers, than by earning a bottom-tier liberal arts degree and ending up working in Starbucks or PetSmart.</p>

<p>If my son were to start at an LD-oriented private college, $35,000 per year (which they’re not; around here, they’re more – Landmark is over $50,000, I believe) and do well, he would run out of money before finishing a Bachelors. (Leaving open the question of what that bachelor’s would be worth in the job market.) If he did badly, and came back to County, he would have an ugly transcript to explain away for the rest of his academic career and his funds would be depleted, going forward. If we could push the fund to $100,000, and were to go away to a state school for $25,000, he would be under the gun to absolutely finish in 8 semesters, which is not a realistic expectation in higher ed today, especially for someone like him.</p>

<p>All of this points to him starting at County, with money available for 1:1 private tutoring to help him through County, if need be. And the privilege of taking a reduced course load, which we could afford to support at County rates, but not elsewhere.</p>

<p>If I seem a little jaded, I have not mentioned that the family has already spent $50,000 over the years on evaluations, tutoring and other special help. And usually not with a lot of cooperation and effort from the student. Zero appreciation. That’s more than a lot of people spend on college altogether, and it forces a parent to face facts, I guess. College is really not for everybody. And I’m willing to let him try, but I’m not 100% convinced that his ambitions are truly academic. College is just where kids from a town like this all go after HS to get out from under curfews, etc. At least, I think that’s a big part of how he sees it. His friends see it the same way, but they are competitive about school, and they will do OK anyway.</p>

<p>I do feel that the prospect of living at home and commuting to a very good county college would be something that a young adult could accept if truly committed to learning and pursuing the degree itself. Less so, for the person who really just wants to be sent to sleepaway camp for 19 year olds.</p>

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<p>Kayf, you are a first-hand witness to the scenarios that unfold in these communities. So, do you think it would be better for the kid to be discouraged from actually applying to 4-years in 12th grade (when County time is likely needed for both financial reasons and to permit the boy to mature)? Or do you think it’s better to let the kid file a roll-the-dice application, forewarned that he may get in, but the parents will balk financially unless he gets an astoundingly good deal?</p>

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<p>Why does the school he attend have to be a 50,000/year LAC? The school I posted was half that much. I realize you are his parent but doesn’t he have any say in this? If my child wanted to try going to a 4 year school, why wouldn’t you let him go? Give him a semester with realistic expectations of what he can and cannot achieve and let him try. He might just surprise you. If not, at least HE knows it wasn’t for him vs you TELLING him it is not for him. I can tell you that with my kids, it means a lot more if THEY figure those things out on their own…even if we told them the exact same thing.</p>

<p>Have him look at Bemidji State or Southwest Minnesota State in MN. Both are VERY small state colleges, in-state and out of state tuition is the same with total costs coming in around $15,000-16,000/year. Transportation not included. They have a strong TRIO program and many services available to help students. SW MN State actually was designed to be a disabled student campus (physical and learning). OODLES of options there for him. Bemidji also has an option where kids enroll in the technical college for two years and then transfer to the 4 year university if they want and they can live on the university campus while doing so.</p>

<p>I am sure every state has something similar to this.</p>

<p>Again, give him a semester to prove himself and you aren’t out all that much money.</p>

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<p>I suppose what you could to, fieldsports, is keep emphasizing the “unless you get an astoundingly good deal” to your son. So he knows in no uncertain way that his going to a 4-year school depends on him getting that good deal. To be realistic, he needs to research what it takes to “be wanted” by a school. (Who knows, maybe he’ll raise his grades/scores and actually does get a break somewhere.) </p>

<p>Besides looking at privates that offer $$/resources for his LD, you could also explore some of the cheaper publics, where the cost of attendance will certainly be less than at a private, or even some publics. With your budget of $80,000-100,000 he could spend 4 years at, say, University of Montana, or Montana State. My son attends one of these and we’re paying less in out-of-state tuition than we would in-state in Colorado, where we live. (Son is an underachiever, and even with his mediocre GPA and only decent SATs, he was awarded a $5,000/year for 4 years “scholarship.”)</p>

<p>Wyoming and Utah also welcome out-of-state students and grant them $$. Search the parents forum for a list of other inexpensive to OOS publics. </p>

<p>Of course whether these are at all appealing to your son is another matter. (Although if he’s a skier/snowboarder Montana could be very attractive, lol.) </p>

<p>And I DO understand the tough spot you’re in, with a lot of your child’s friends going to fancy-pants-expensive schools your can’t afford. And isn’t it absurd that a budget such as yours would be considered inadequate? Yikes! Higher education in America is CRAAAZY!</p>

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<p>Check out D’Youville in Buffalo NY. I believe if SATs are @ 1200+, you get 50% scholarship. As mncollegemom points out, the choices are less polarized than you might think. </p>

<p>Could you try this approach too – have him apply to a school in the $30K range, but ask to defer admission while he works for a year to earn money, gain an extra year of maturity, and maybe take a class at County? So then he’ll be vested in doing well at the 4 year school?</p>

<p>You know your child – you’ll find the right mix</p>