<p>Carolyn ~ I've always wondered if highly selective schools use the AP scores (not necessarily the class credit) for admission purposes. I think they do, but perhaps this is somewhat wishful thinking on my part. But the conversations I've had with Adcoms suggest that these scores are very significant in admissions (not always for credit, and not even always for placement). This is one reason we respond to the observation you made by having our kids stack up AP credits before the end of 11th grade: so the scores can be part of the admissions contest during senior year.</p>
<p>Senior year APs just fulfill the student's need for rigorous courses and intellectual growth, IMHO. They don't help much with admissions.</p>
<p>My son as a 10th grader is currently taking 3 APs. He is enrolled in AP BC Calc, AP Chemistry and AP European History. I think based on his current grades, he will be allowed to take AP Physics and AP US History in 11th grade. He has very little interest in Biology but will take Cellular Biology Class. In senior year, he wants to take class in International Relations, Economics as well as if possible indulge himself in a research in Chemistry and History. Thus it leaves less room for anything else. Thus, he may not have more than 5 APs by the time he graduates. </p>
<p>I have no idea about how it realtes to college admission. I am just stating the facts as I see.</p>
<p>Like many others here, I was an interviewer for an Ivy and had many, many conversations and contacts with adcoms over many years.</p>
<p>1) My Ivy does not consider AP scores as part of admissions. </p>
<p>2) This Ivy was very skeptical of APs taken before junior year (unless it was math or physics taken by a whiz kid. They had no interest in World History, etc.)</p>
<p>3) This Ivy was only interested in APs in English, history, math, science, and language. Others were considered "fluff." That's not to say an AP like Art History would not be useful in getting credits at some schools...</p>
<p>4) I am on a major committee at my public high school (very highly rated). The average number of APs for those accepted at Top Ten Lacs, Ivies, and other Top Ten Schools was 4 or 5.</p>
<p>5) My kids got into top ten schools - one had one AP and the other had four, plus a "fluff" (Psychology). NEITHER sent their AP test scores (5's with one 4) to the school until AFTER admission. Same with all their friends, who ended up at Harvard, Dartmouth, etc.</p>
<p>My take on all this - there's not much point in a huge laundry list of APs <em>unless</em> they are better (in your particular school) than regular courses.
For college admissions, they do not count anywhere near what people think they do.</p>
<p>Nedad, I agree with you that the AP do not count as much in admissions as people tend to believe. In my opinion, it is another example of the growing differences of what high school believe colleges want to see and what colleges really expect from their entering class. </p>
<p>However, there are ancillary by-products of taking AP that, in my opinion, has a profound impact on admissions: higher class rank and higher GPA at schools that use a weighted system of grading. </p>
<p>The schools that use a true holistic and refined admissions' review might be able to adjust the scales, but I thimk that the vast majority of the schools do not spend too much time in curriculum and transcript analysis. Despite claiming to use a 15 points holistic system, state schools such as UT-Texas have a simple admission process that automatically accepst the top 10% of every high school in Texas. The reaction of the students in Texas has been to milk the system via honor and AP classes, and to a certain extent, via the IB program.</p>
<p>Nedad and others - how important do you think it is to have the GC check the "took most rigorous courseload" box? For many of us that is the true importance of APs, our kids' colleges won't give them a lot of credit, but, for good or ill, APs are the most advanced courses offered at their schools. As far as test scores goes, Nedad says his kids went to a "highly rated" public high school, presumably in the NE, adcoms probably didn't need any outside validation of the rigor of that high school, they were familiar with the high school. Kids from less well recognized schools should probably err on the side of sending in all the information that is available to them, good or bad. Like a lot of other things in college admits, I think the right answer to the how many APs and what to do with the scores question, is "It depends".</p>
<p>This was important to us, at first DD was reluctant to list her AP scores, saying the college doesn't need them until after admission, until we and her GC pointed out that lots of schools, unlike hers, don't require kids to take the AP exam - she was dumbfounded. Then the question arose about what to do about her one 3 score - we listed it, better to show it was a 3 in a class listed as "Honors" rather than true AP, than to leave it blank and allow wild guessing.</p>
<p>Do you mean by taking only 5 APs kids like my son will be at disadvantage in college admissions? Will college consider that they have taken these hard APs earlier than most students?</p>
<p>I read all of this about AP and then I open the New York Times and read an article saying that some of the top NYC prep schools (like Brearley) have completely dropped all of their AP classes......they thought they were limiting and the teachers thought that they were forced to teach to the test....Brearley gets their girls into the top colleges and universities every year....do they know something other schools don't?</p>
<p>Art History
Biology
Calculus AB
Chemistry
Computer Science A
Macroeconomics
Microeconomics
English Language and Composition
English Literature and Composition
Environmental Science
French Language
Comparative Government and Politics
United States Government and Politics
European History
United States History
World History
Human Geography
Music Theory
Physics B
Psychology
Spanish Language
Statistics
Studio Art (Drawing Portfolio)
Studio Art (2-D Design Portfolio)
Studio Art (3-D Design Portfolio)</p>
<p>BUT we have limits on the numbers student are allowed to take.
Freshman: none
Sophomore: one
Junior: three
Senior: five</p>
<p>of course exceptions can be made but they are rare.</p>
<p>Parentny, I believe your son is at a prep school with a reputation and profile for offering top of the line academics as far as difficulty goes. Most colleges, particularly those that have done business with this school, will recognize this. AP courses and exams become increasingly important in schools that are not known to colleges, that do not get as many kids going to certain selective schools, and there is a doubt on how well these kids are taught. Straight A's at a school for a kid whose SAT1 scores are high shows that the kid is probably very bright (at least in aptitude tests) and is diligent. Now if the kid has taken, say 4 AP courses, particularly some of the tougher ones and gotten 4's and 5's on them, then the college can see that the student has mastered material at a certain level as well. If he gets 1's and 2's, well, that is not so good. Colleges have stated that they do not penalize kids who are not able to take such courses because they are not available at the school. I would still advise kids in such a situation to make some effort to reach out and take a college level course at some local college or get into some national enrichment program so that such a student can more easily compared with kids coming from a known element. Your son will not have that problem coming from the type of school he is in. </p>
<p>As to the number of APs, I have been told that they do not do a running count. It is more of a tip factor, and 3-4 AP, especially the solid ones are fine. I believe this because looking at my own info and that of a number schools, I don't see this as an issue for kids who are excellent all around, unless they are shirking the AP road deliberately for easier courses. No reason for a top English/Language kid to have to worry about BC calc.</p>
<p>Now when we are talking about colleges, especially state schools , the California schools, it becomes a different story sometimes. Some of these schools do add up AP points, and it is possible it could hurt a kid whose transcript does not have AP designation (like my sons'--their school refuses to put AP with a course name even if you take the AP exam). I have stated a couple of times that one boy from his school was not accepted to UVA even as a legacy and when they called to ask why he was not accepted since he has a darned good academic profile, tough courses, good grades, and top test scores, UVA said that his gpa hurt him and gpa counts very heavily there. Never mind that the school is a tough school, UVA does not want to give it a quarter in this area. And because none of the courses are AP designated, he suffered from the AP weighting that UVA apparently does. So this could happen. But there are some kids here who are accepted to Williams and Amherst early with C's on their transcript. My own son whose grades are not consistent has been accepted to Yale. Clearly those schools do view the transcript the light of its rigor. But if you apply to, say U of California, Berkely, well, that is a different story.</p>
<p>This is so interesting, when I see these kids claiming all these AP classes, I am getting a better feel of how that is possible, if indeed they are "true" AP ccourses, and the fact my daughter will have taken just 5 APs by graduation, but is as well taking Honors, In some schools, it looks like almost an AP is easy to get into and there is no limit, while at others, the AP are taken more seriously and there are limits....I feel like sending this thread to all the schools my daughter will be applying to- JK</p>
<p>Slight modification of these replies by TheDad & Xiggi:
Princeton definitely wanted D's AP scores sent by CB, as part of admissions process. (Policies differ by College/U, naturally.) Some LACs also want them (e.g., Connecticut College). Others, yes, use them only after admissions (for placement).</p>
<p>I think the key portion of TheDad's reply are his concluding sentences. It is not the taking of them, but both the content of them & the performance <em>in</em> them, that are the imp. factors, i.m.o. "True" (i.e., upper-level) AP courses will provide the exceptionally capable student with a certain level of opportunity to excel that a non-AP course will not. THAT is what gets the student noticed by an admissions committee -- esp. if so noted on a teacher rec. (A key factor).</p>
<p>There are 2 UC ELC students in D's class; she's one of them. They each will have completed 10 AP courses by graduation. They have identical GPA's, & the other student has all 5's on her APs, & is a legacy. My D has 5's plus one 4. Yet my D was accepted, the other deferred (but I think will be accepted April). D's teachers told me that her performance in her classes is what set her apart. (Similar student must be outstanding; for my own D, I think AP content at this school motivates & enables her to the max.; it's just a matter of degree, that's all, & maybe there was a hair's breadth difference between the 2.)</p>
<p>Their school neither ranks nor weights for GPAs. School relies on teacher recs to describe & compare qualitatively. AP courses provide that opportunity for refined, qualitative evaluation reflecting student output, especially as demonstrated in class discussions. Expectations are high for such discussions, much like a college seminar would be.</p>
<p>US history
English lit
Physics C
Bio
Chem
Calc AB
Comp A, sometimes AB</p>
<p>S took six, did not send scores till after he got into Columbia. He only took three tests, because he viewed the marks as for placement, and he could only get credit once for Computer, so no more credit available, and he could place out of Calc 1 with an A average, and didn't think he was going totake physics. </p>
<p>It never occured to him or me that there was a value judgment applied to taking or not taking the tests, but rather he took them if there was a reason to, didn't if there wasn't. Wasn't out to prove anything by getting a list of numbers. Guess they weren't "real" classes--hope Columbia doesn't find out and take him off the Dean's LIst <em>shrug</em></p>
<p>Dke, my son's school has done the same thing for the same reason. But these schools already have track records at certain colleges where their kids tend to apply, so they do not need to be so concerned as a school that is not as well known. But, you know, some of these schools are pretty danged hypocritical about this whole situation. My son has taken 6 AP exams already at a school with no AP courses. Th month of April on through the AP exam is devoted to going over the AP exam, and there are even extra evening sessions offered for those who want to take the exam and want extra prep. EVERYONE in his Art History course is taking the AP Art History Exam, as the guy who teaches the course has some record for kids getting 5's on the exam, and supposedly is known at several elite schools. Who knows if this is true, but that is the word on the street. </p>
<p>I am in favor of AP courses because they do impose a standard on the material learned. At some schools and with some teachers this is necessary. If a teacher is consistently getting very poor results on the exams with a group of kids who are other wise doing so well, there is something wrong. Pretty easy to pinpoint. There are plenty of other courses where the other info can be covered.</p>
<p>what is your experience on how GCs mark the box for course rigor, if a school offers 20+ APs and a kid only takes 5, plus honors? It was my impression that "the most rigorous possible" needed to be checked by the GC for the highly selective schools, no? Does the GC mark 'most rigorous' even though a more rigorous course was available?</p>
<p>2 MONTHS are devoted to learning the test?!! Why a have a class if you are just studying for the test? At my daughter's school, you can not take an AP class (except maybe in language) until Junior Year, and a max of three a year...and as for some kids doing poorly on a test, but other wise doing well, is it right that the teachers teach to the test? I find that kind of sad. Teaching to a test. So some people located somewhere are deciding what in ART is important....we must be careful....if that is what is in the future, the teachers just need to learn the test material, teach that, and we will have kids who all know a lot, but all know the same thing....not much diversity there, not much passion, just memorization of some facts decided by a corporation.</p>
<p>Superstar, I agree with you - too many teachers teach to the test. Often, it is because they are pushed by the school and parents to make sure kids do well on the test. </p>
<p>It is interesting to see the difference between my daughter's AP Euro class last year and her Honors US history class this year. Last year, the emphasis was on absorbing the material as quickly as possible in order to do well on the test. No time for writing research papers (and what college level history class would not ask you to write at least one?), little time for in-depth class discussions, lots of practice tests and pressure focused on taking THE test. My daughter did very well on the AP test and learned a great deal about budgeting her time, but I would not say that the class was the equivalent of the way most college history classes are taught. </p>
<p>This year, she opted for the Honors section. The AP section is taught by the same teacher as the honors section and she has lots of friends in that class so she gets feedback on what they are doing in class. She is LOVING the Honors class - she just completed a long and very interesting research paper and project that is definitely college level work, she comes home excited about new ideas and concepts being discussed in class, and she has time to read and really enjoy her text materials. Meanwhile, her friends in the AP section - again, taught by the same teacher as her honors class - are going through the same process as the AP Euro class last year: lots of reading, little discussion, no research papers, focus entirely on getting a good grade on the test. </p>
<p>The ironic thing is my daughter has the option to take the AP exam in May but the AP students do not have the option to experience many of the benefits she is receiving from the honors class. </p>
<p>I realize that not every school is like my daughter's school. At many schools, there simply are no honors sections so there is no choice: if you want more of a challenge, you have to go the AP route. I think that is unfortunate because a good honors class can be just as effective at preparing you to do college level work - and in fact, perhaps MORE effective in some cases - than an AP class. If I was a college admissions officer, I'd rather be able to read an actual example of college level work like my daughter's research paper over simply seeing a "5" or a "4" or even lower on an AP transcript. Luckily, several of the colleges my daughter will probably apply to seem to agree and welcome graded samples of work as part of the application.</p>
<p>ParentNY, there should be no reason for considering "only" 5 hard AP as a disadvantage. The comment posted by Carolyn about Stanford's average of AP illustrates this. However, there is no universal answer for all colleges. My suggestion consists of contacting the schools and ask them directly how they view AP in the overall admission review. </p>
<p>Bluebayou, I am afraid that I have no answer for the GC question.</p>
<p>At our school, if you take AP, you MUST take the test....we have only three in science, 3 in math, a couple pysch, 2 history, and 2 couple in language...I am so glad I asked the initial question, after seeing all the posts with students "taking" so many AP classes, I was a bit concerned, but I know my daughter is on the right track....and all she can do is learn, have fun, do her best, and not freak out (okay that is me),,,,</p>
<p>The advantage to the way S's school does this is that the teacher is not stuck with the AP curriculum when he is teaching the course, and the kid is not stuck taking the test. But then, there is a month or so when they go over what is on the test so the kids do learn the materials that are on the AP curriculum, and there is overlap from what was taught as well. When the test is done, they continue with other issues that are not on the exam. School is not out until mid June and they are not done until the very last day at this school. I can honestly say that I have not seen these kids just doing time when they are there. Every moment seems to be crammed full. The number of kids getting 4's and 5's on the AP exam is very, very high, and most kids do take the exam. But there is no gatekeeping or pressure to take the exam. The feeling that the history and English departments have about the AP curriculum is that they can do much better without following it, and still cover most of the material, and with about a month of going over what would be on the exam along with the course, would be the compromise. They do not consider this best of both worlds, as they would prefer not to bother with the AP material at all, but the are conceding to the desires of the parents and students, I am told. Apparently there had been an attempt to get it completely out of the curriculum except when it happens to be in the material the dept wants to teach, but enough of a brougha was raised that this was the compromise. The school has an outstanding track record of students doing well in college and graduating within 5-6 years. And this is with many kids taking a gap years. Very few transfers in college as well, so I think the kids are well taught. My older son's AP courses were almost certainly taught to the test, as he did terribly in some of the course in college when he did well on the test. Also his school has a terrible track record of keeping kids in college. Many of S's classmates are back home, working, doing college locally on a part time basis. And too many of them did do very poorly in college.</p>