<p>I am still concerned about too much teaching to a test, especially one set up by a committee of people of which I have no idea their experience, their agenda, bias, or their points of view. I don't want a bunch of kids in college who are bringing all the same education to the table, especially when it comes to the humanities- language, social studies, art, etc. Coming from a middle school that teaches to a text book, I am hoping for more in high school. AS an earlier poster pointed out, many honors classes are just as rigourous, but in fact, are much more interesting, and provide for different skills than some AP's. It is going to be interesting to see what happens in the next feew years.</p>
<p>I think the bottomline is you have to get out and talk to the teachers at your child's school who actually teach the AP classes. It's also a very good idea to talk to parents of kids currently taking the class for their feedback on how the class is taught. I'd also advise trying to sniff out from administrators how much pressure they put on teachers to get a high pass rate. Too much or too little pressure can be either good or bad, depending on how it translates in the classroom. Every school seems to approach AP classes in their own unique manner (in spite of the so-called common AP curriculum) so this is worth doing. </p>
<p>I'd also consider the teacher's individual reputation with students and parents. I laughed when, after my daughter had finished AP Euro last year, I read one student's online comment about the teacher:
"Pass rate: high. Nervous breakdown rate: higher." :)</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom:</p>
<p>I disagree about the value of bringing the same education to the table. It's different from teaching to a test. We have 12 elementary schools in our district, each with its own curriculum. And one high school. High school teachers have to struggle with the fact that some of their students know a lot about China but not Africa or Latin America, that others know a lot about Maya civilization but not about the Middle East, that some have read Shakespeare plays and others not. The list could go on. Academically speaking, it's like the Tower of Babel. Just because every student in my S's 6th grade read (and performed) Much Ado About Nothing does not mean they were taught to a test or brought the same perspectives, home experiences, skills levels to the play. But at least, they were speaking the same language. </p>
<p>In AP classes, there can be too much teaching to the test, but that is not a failing restricted to the AP curriculum. As I have posted elsewhere, practically all of my S's classes (including APUSH, AP-Am Lit, Latin and Spanish and senior English) are geared partly toward preparing kids for the SAT. It drives him crazy (especially since he finished all his SATs last year). But there should certainly be expectations that a class covering US History in the 19th century should include certain topics: that is what the AP curriculum spells out.</p>
<p>"As I have posted elsewhere, practically all of my S's classes (including APUSH, AP-Am Lit, Latin and Spanish and senior English) are geared partly toward preparing kids for the SAT."</p>
<p>Marit</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>This is something that I noted this year as my S has been taking these courses, so I don't know whether the practice has been in place for a long time or was only instituted recently. The school seems to launch new initiatives every year. I would assume, however, that students who are in AP classes, take Latin 3 and Spanish 4 as my S is doing, would do well in the SAT. As I have posted before, the hs is bimodal. The top students outperform their peers in the state and the nation; but 20% of the students failed to pass the state exit exam (first administered in 10th grade) repeatedly. Obviously, these students are not in AP classes.</p>
<p>I don't have problems with the Spanish teacher teaching etymologies as does the Latin teacher. It's the overt link to SAT prep that bothers me.</p>
<p>My concern is you have one curriculum, one group of people deciding what everyone should be taught and how, and whats wrong with some kids knowing about China and some knowing more about Africa....they can bring different perspectives to the table....in High School, you start from scratch, with a good foundation (hopefully) of how to study, take notes, write a paper, etc. My daughter studied world history in 7th grade, and again as a freshman....it was sooo different even though the topic was the same....I moved every two years growing up, different states, different countries, yet I somehow did very well, even with different curriculums everywhere. So the excuse of everyone having to learn exactly the same thing in middle school so it is easier in high school is doesn't fliy. The SKILLS you learn are what is important. My daughter remembered some 7th grade stuff, but it didn't really give her an edge....there is much less focus on dates, etc and much more on concepts, theories, patterns, relationships etc. As well, do you want everyone coming into high school and college with the exact same references? If someone knows the Mayas and another knows Japan, comparisons can be made. It scares me to think of automotons that may be created to pass tests. Just look to Japan.....</p>
<p>Sorry, I disagree. I have lived on 3 continents and experienced different school systems. I know what it means not to have common frames of reference. I know what it means to have read lots of French literature but not enough American literature to participate in class discussions. I know what it means to know a lot of French history but not to be able to pick up on references to American history. </p>
<p>One of the reasons high schools start from scratch is that students arrive without a common body of knowledge. I have talked to my Ss' teachers throughout the years, and the lack of a common curriculum at the elementary level is one of their greatest concern. It's like trying to navigate without common reference points.
Skills do not exist on their own. You need some basic facts through which to exercize and hone these skills. Having a common curriculum does not mean focusing on dates. It can indeed mean concepts, theories, patterns, relationships. But if one set of students only knows about the Mayas and another set knows only about Japan, some time will need to be spent educating one lot about the Mayas and the other lot about Japan before both sets of students can engage in meaningful discussions and comparisons. It is precisely because students arrive without a common curriculum that so much time seems to be devoted to basic information. At any one time, some students will mutter: "Why do we have to go over this again? I already learned it in (pick your grade)."
Again, you seem to confuse a curriculum and test. Teaching to a curriculum does not mean teaching to the test. Even if the APUSH test will focus on, say, labor history one year, does not mean that one can safely skip the Civil War or the New Deal or the World Wars. My S's AP-USH teacher teaches the students how to read critically, to analyze documents. That's not teaching to any test. But it sure helps if she teaches the 30 students in her class how to analyze the same document.</p>
<p>I fully agree, Marite. One of the reasons that kids in the private "prep" schools have such a good track record in staying in college is that those schools have a common curriculum and it is in line with the more selective schools' core curriculum. There is a lot of lee way on how you approach the material, and a full year is not needed to cover it when you are dealing with kids who are advanced enough to be taking AP courses. Teaching to the test is definitely not good enough, as my oldest son's school demonstrates. Though he did fine on the AP exams, he did not retain the material, nor did he learn it well enough to build on it. The courses he took in the first two years of prep school did stick, however. He is an isolated case, but unfortunately typical of most of the kids from his school where they taught to the test. And the kids in the prep schools all are in good standing or graduated from their colleges with very few even transferring to other colleges.</p>
<p>at my school the AP teachers are not so worried about teaching to the test - we have always done tons of disscussion, even on current events, and had in depth projects/papers in classes like AP US history and AP Euro... in physics and environ. science we did tons of hands on activities and experiments, etc. etc. If it were not for those classes and the AP style and having good teachers, I would have really suffered my first semester at college with not knowing how to write essays quickly but with tons of info in them, i would have had trouble knowing HOW to study, with so much reading, etc.</p>
<p>However, my state (VA) has Standards of Learning tests for many classes from elementary school through high school - and in THOSE they definitely teach to the test, do SOL practice, and so on - and that definitely negatively affects the experience in the class.</p>
<p>I guess we disagree, I just get the feeling too much is so different for each school: some schools have prerequisites to take the class, some don't,
some teach the test, some don't,
some have all the APs, some have very few,
some have honors, some don't,
some make you take the test, some don't,
some encourage taking test with no class, some don't, </p>
<p>I get the feeling there will never be a concensus. At my daughters' Catholic Prep School, AP is tough, but Honors is right there. I am wondering how we have all these great doctors, lawyers, architects, business people, people who put us on the moon with no AP classes....I bet the AP classes are not much harder than some "regular" high school classes from years past...I think there is a kind of arrogance with people thinking that those kids are so "advanced" in the AP classes, with no pre-recs, how can you tell? with no having to take the test, how can you tell....and it is odd that no one seems to care that a small group of people are deciding what is relevant....its like squishing kids into a funnel....years ago, with no AP's, we still had some pretty smart kids....and as for a track record of doing well in college, is there proof that kids taking AP's now do better than 20 years ago with no AP?</p>
<p>A lot of the people who put human beings on the moon were educated in Europe.</p>
<p>There is a consensus about what is important to know, both in terms of facts and skills.<br>
One college prof said in my hearing that a student told him: "Wow, thanks for a great lecture. I'd never heard of the Great Depression before." Another prof capped with an anecdote about a student saying: "Depression? I've never been depressed in my life before." Try having a meaningful discussion about the New Deal, WWII, your parents' experiences...
APs are not the end-all and be-all, of course. And there's plenty I can disagree with my Ss's experiences in AP classes. But it is helpful to college profs to know what they have covered and what they have not. My S was able to leverage his AP Calc and AP Physics to take advanced college classes in those subjects (APs were pre-requisites for taking the classes). Could it be that those college profs know a thing or two about the value of the AP courses? Granted, Calculus could cover a different set of topics from those presently covered. But it is extremely helpful to college profs to have an idea of what their students are supposed to have covered, and what they have not. It is also helpful for 9th grade history or ELA teachers not to be teaching some texts or topics that 2/3 of the class have never encountered before but which 1/3 spent nearly a whole semester covering in a previous grade.
There are some very high-achieving schools (including one we considered for my S) that have eschewed the AP curriculum because it is restrictive. But they are fully aware of its contents and expectations and large numbers of their students do take the AP tests. My S's APUSH teacher is more interested in social history and the text she uses emphasizes social history more. The test this year focuses more on political history. So she compromises and combines both approaches. I have no problem with that.</p>
<p>Hello all. I am the poster of (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=25263%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=25263</a>) and wanted to get some input from the parents.
I am currently a Junior, and I am taking 6 AP classes (5 @ school + 1 or 2 online) and self studying 2 or 3 more. I must say learning all these are fun, but I also wanted all the time, money (!), and effort put into taking 9 AP tests in May to help me with college admissions process.<br>
My school offers 13 AP's and I have taken 1 as a Soph. I am also vying for the National AP Scholar award as a Junior (<100 nationwide). Will this help me as much as I hope it would?
Thanks!</p>
<p>If AP courses are the most rigorous courses your school has to offer, if you enjoy taking them and can handle the workload, that is the most important consideration. Doing well in rigorous courses will certainly help with college, though I don't know that chasing after some numeric goal will "help you as much as you hope it will." Highly selective colleges will consider mostly scores of 4 and 5, so 3s will not be very helpful toward admission, though I believe they will count toward National AP scholar. As well, colleges value certain APs over others (for example AP Physics C over AP-Physics B, AP-US History over AP-Human geography). My older S was admitted into a highly selective college with only 4 APs.</p>
<p>Does anybody know if there is a fee waiver available for AP's????</p>
<p>I think one factor in why elite private high schools are stepping back from AP has to do with their value proposition in terms of marketing their school to prospective parents. One of the things parents want from such schools is compelling evidence of academic excellence in the classroom. If that's not a key selling point, why pay the high prices for such a school? But if the private high school is teaching mostly AP courses, how can they be significantly different than a good public high school? It's a perception problem for them. So they drop the AP course designations and instead teach high caliber courses with an emphasis on "prepping" for college. Some go so far as to suggest that their course material is proprietary and excellent beyond the ability of other (public) schools to match.</p>
<p>Perhaps. But from the schools we interviewed, we thought their excellence was mostly the result of selecting top students, sustaining small class sizes, and picking/rewarding better teachers outside of the beaurocracy of the public school systems. These are valuable assets in a school, but if these assets are deployed teaching the same curriculum as in a good public (such as the AP course curriculum), then some of the motivation of the parents to pay for the tuition is lost, IMHO.</p>
<p>In a way, there is sort of a parallel to the private-college vs honors-college at a good public university. The honors-college attmepts to re-create the educational impact of a Yale experience at a much smaller cost. </p>
<p>Demand for college prep schools is suppressed if there is a recognized national curriculum that leads to success in elite colleges, and is available to public school students (like AP). Demand is even more supressed if the prep schools teach the same curriculum.</p>
<p>Montgomery country Maryland seems to be pushing more kids towards AP courses. I guess they take the high school ratings,which simply calculates the number of kids taking AP exams, as important. My daughter attends Wootton HS in Maryland. The have both a science and a humanties internal magnet program there. If an AP course is offered by the college board, it is offered at Wootton. In addition, in order to avoid "serioritis," students are encouraged to take courses at our local junior college and, and some junior college courses are given at our high school for college credit.</p>
<p>I like the college institute approach. It avoids the necessity of getting a proper score on the AP exam since each college has different standards as to what is acceptable. For the most part, college institute courses all transfer. Also, it does make the senior year more interesting and prevents kids from simply coasting.</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom, the AP course is nothing magic and is only as good as the instructor and the material actually covered. My oldest son did not take APCalc after a rift with the instructor. He took the regular Calc but took the APCalc test and got a 4 on it which was higher than what most of the kids in the actual class got even with the instructor teaching to the test. And this instructor is upfront that this is what she does. I think my son did better getting a different teacher even though the class was not focused on the AP exam, and I was able to make up the difference myself by looking to see what was not covered and was on the exam. </p>
<p>But a year later, he did not do well in his college calc course that covered the same material but compressed into a semester. He didn't remember much at all. So doing well on the exam does not equate learning the material thoroughly and completely. At his school they will not give credit for Calculus unless you get a 5 on the AB or a 4 or 5 on the BC, but you can take the compressed 2 terms in 1 if you get a 3 or a 4 on the AB. He would have been better off taking the year long course as he did need the review. He did not take the course first term in college so there was a time gap that was not helpful at all.</p>
<p>why pay the high prices for such a school? But if the private high school is teaching mostly AP courses, how can they be significantly different than a good public high school? It's a perception problem for them. So they drop the AP course designations and instead teach high caliber courses with an emphasis on "prepping" for college. Some go so far as to suggest that their course material is proprietary and excellent beyond the ability of other (public) schools to match.</p>
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<p>Reasonabledad, Bingo. You sound as if you were at the mandatory parents' AP/Honors meeting at my children's private school last spring. That's almost EXACTLY what they said about why they put a limit on the number of AP's children can take and why they encourage kids to take all the honors classes they can.</p>