<p>How does that help determine student participation in ECs? (unless you think football is "curricular".) (I already knew that Swat has fewer than half the number of visual and performing arts majors as Williams, but what else is new? ;))</p>
<p>
[quote]
unless you think football is "curricular"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Isn't it? I guess I can understand how a Seahawks fan would look at football as a minor sidelight. But, we Patriots fans take a different view.</p>
<p>Whatsa Seahawk? ;)</p>
<p>HAHAHA ID - best thing ^^ I have seen from you - GO PATS!!!!</p>
<p>OOO don't forget them SOX!!!!!</p>
<p>While Ive slept this thread seems to have taken off in several directions but the distinct undertone is the old complaint that Williams kids cant possibly be getting a good education because they win at sports! Well, I can speak only speak from my sons experience. He as Im sure youre tired of hearing is not a team athlete. He treks, snowboards, plays a little broomball, some intramural soccer, enjoys his PE classes in tennis, squash and diving. Except for the mountain climbing, all of these endeavors are NEW experiences for him. To my mind, being in an environment where kids are encouraged to get out there and do something physical has been a big plus. Hes happier, healthier and, I think, a better person for it.</p>
<p>Several of his friends are varsity athletes. To say that these kids are anything less than serious, highly accomplished intellectuals would be grossly inaccurate. The athlete who is also a scholar who is also an athlete is a very real concept at Williams and many of these kids are also musicians, actors, etc, etc. This is the land of the multifaceted kid. Its true that nobody gets much sleep, but for sure, there is time and energy for a wide range of activities.</p>
<p>As I wrote earlier, sports dont mean much to me personally. I often ask my son whether he thinks that Williams places too much emphasis on athletics. He says, no, thats just what Williams is. The philosophy of healthy mind, healthy body; play hard, work hard; be all you can be permeates the entire culture. The important point is that other non-sports activities do not suffer. Williams has the money and the will to spend just as generously on the arts and sciences (in fact they have been criticized for too much spending, i.e., building). As a kid whos totally immersed in art and art history, my son has never felt a drain on funding in his field and Im sure that his friends in math/science/social studies would say the same thing. </p>
<p>At Williams, where there is virtually no grade inflation, a 3.2 average is pretty darn good! My sons suitemate does (is that the right verb?) varsity track and field. She certainly finds it challenging to balance the time demands of her sport, but has managed to maintain a GP well above 3.2, in chemistry I think, work full time as a junior advisor and keep up a fairly active social life as well. The point is that this kind of multi-faceted scheduling is the norm not the exception.</p>
<p>just a note about my D so far in D3:</p>
<p>-In general, like Williams, practices do not conflict with classes. If there is an occasional lab or whatever that does cut into practice time, she is expected to do the lab and arrive late, and it is automatically excused.</p>
<p>-There is NO obligation to do anything in the off-season. Obviously kids will work out in order not to lose their conditioning, or play because they enjoy it and like being fit. But nothing is tracked or required and the coach cannot even WATCH a kid play the sport during the off season.</p>
<p>-checking the schedule, and assuming she will play in every match, it appears that she will have to leave her late class early 3 times, and she will miss two whole week days. This does not seem excessive. Students would miss the same amount of class time if they get one flu! I suspect certain kids voluntarily skip at least this much for a ski weekend, or a concert out of town, or visiting a boyfriend on another campus (I know I did.) Certainly a kid with decent time management and foresight should be able to work around this minor intrusion easily.</p>
<p>We know D1 kids in the same sport as my D who are NEVER off the whole year. D1 owns you. There is a big difference between D1 & D3.</p>
<p>I suspect all of this varies with the sport & the coach too. If you want a "mellow" D3 they are much more prevalent than intense D3s.</p>
<p>MOMRATH - I totally agree with you - it does take all kinds and types and activities to make these kids well rounded/multi-faceted individuals - no matter where they go to school.</p>
<p>If we were all from the same mold - and thank goodness we are not - life would be very boring and college would be a robotic endeavor. For the athletes - for many at least - there is the challange of managing and multi tasking thru out their college careers - same for most students in general - just replace the sport with another time consuming activity and they are pretty much in the same situation - again no matter what school one attends.</p>
<p>I don't know why I forgot to mention this earlier, but many of the recruiting methods described in the NYT article aren't allowed by NESCAC (Haverford is not a NESCAC school)--which includes many of the most elite LACs--Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, etc. Specifically, primary contact must be initiated by the prospective student at these schools, and even after primary contact, all meetings must occur on the college campus. Cold-calling/emailing is strictly prohibited, as would be attending one of these baseball camps for the purpose of recruiting. This is not a criticism of Haverford, just to point out that while much of the article's information is universally valid for prospective D3ers, it will be a different situation with the NESCAC schools. Worth noting, Bulldog111, is that NESCAC coaches are specifically enjoined from making admissions promises to athletes--that can only come from an authorized Admissions officer. Also, the limit of 66 "tipped" athletes that has been mentioned is an agreement among the "Little Three"--Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan--and not a regulation of NESCAC. There's a lot of useful information for prospective NESCAC students/parents in the manual, linked below--regarding recruiting, practices, etc.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nescac.com/Conference/forms.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.nescac.com/Conference/forms.htm</a></p>
<p>TY Driver. I guess we are a little confused about the NESCAC system. If the coach gets to "tip" wouldn't he want to tell a prospective student he is going to use one on that kid? Wouldn't that be like making a promise of admission? All of the Ivy coaches we have talked to had his stats checked out with admissions before even offering him an official visit. Wouldn't a Nescac coach "run the numbers" with admissions, get an ok to use a pick and chase a kid hard? If the kid has the stats and would be an impact member of a team wouldn't that happen? Is a coach supposed to use a pick and sit back and pray?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wouldn't a Nescac coach "run the numbers" with admissions, get an ok to use a pick and chase a kid hard?
[/quote]
There might be a couple complications. Maybe the applicant projects to be an excellent varsity athelte at the school so the school is recruiting pretty hard ... and at the same time they are also recruiting another kid who plays the same position who would be an All-American ... the first kid probably isn't getting a tip until the school knows about the second kid. Also the "66 tips" mentioned in an earlier post are across all sports so within a school the various coaches need to work out which sport gets how many tips. Punch line ... because of all the other things going on in the background it often is quite ambiguous for the applicant.</p>
<p>This coach has 4 picks-we know that, he told us, and at the D3 level, since my s is in a "timed" sport, I know how many kids are out there in the country with his times-about 20 and half will be getting D1 money, and half won't have the grades. The chances of two of them interested in this school with the same events and the same academic stats would almost never happen. I realize I am being rather specific to my s, but in a case like his wouldn't a coach want to say I want you and I will use a pick on you?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I realize I am being rather specific to my s, but in a case like his wouldn't a coach want to say I want you and I will use a pick on you?
[/quote]
Could be ... it's also possible the coach is juggling a higher regarded applicant in a different event in the same sport for that tip ... it's just tough to tell the whole story ... and I agree, it would be much easier on the applicants and the families if this was more transparent.</p>
<p>Bulldog/3togo:
It's a very nuanced dance. Yes, they have picks--no question. How they exercise the picks is a bit of a mystery--I suspect a good deal of it happens in the ED stage--but if the rules are followed, any quid pro quo has to come from the admissions dept--which would obviously be executing a coach's pick.</p>
<p>Yes that could be true. Thanks for helping me try to figure it out. I realize sometimes I sound a little desparate. (or a lot) I have done enough reading of the CC boards to understand bad things can and do happen, and I worry about my over-achieving son being left high and dry. Picking an ED school is going to turn me into a nervous wreak!! And yes, we do have an ED2 school. I have learned that lesson here too. </p>
<p>Thanks everybody!</p>
<p>All D3 schools recruit the student-athlete
whether they have a national top 25 team
or a team that every couple of years wins
a game. My D was recruited by Swarthmore,
Smith & Bryn Mawr, in naming just a few.
Those schools have mediocre programs at best.</p>
<p>Wait!! Bryn Mawr has one of the nation's
top badminton teams year after year & they
are proud of it/</p>
<p>Bulldog,
I remember what you're going through so well. Here's a little bit of anecdotal material that will hopefully help you read the tea leaves.</p>
<p>First, my D was a lot like your son on paper, although your son seems to be more of an "impact" player than my daughter was. Both of our kids were clearly in "category 3" as posted by ID in #69. My D applied ED to Yale, and was deferred. Sports were never an issue there, she just liked it, but never would have made their team.</p>
<p>After deferral, our very savvy GC asked us if she had prepared a sports resume. "Huh?" we said. Basically, it's a brag sheet where you list all the athletic accomplishments--with the SATs and GPA right at the top. At many school websites you can do this online, but it never hurts to mail or email it directly to the coach. This generated lots of NESCAC responses--phone calls, emails, etc. Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury were particularly frequent contactors. Nothing from any of the Ivies.</p>
<p>Visiting Dartmouth, she stopped in to see the coach, had a nice chat, and presented another copy of her sports resume. The coach looked, snorted, said (essentially): You're not good enough for a pick, but you don't need my help, you're getting in [she did]. If you still want to play when you get here, show up at the equipment room, tell them you're on my team, and they'll give you your gear.</p>
<p>About the time that "early writes" came out--late Feb, early March--D got a call from a Williams coach that went on for a little while. When she was done, she had a stunned look, and said that if she was willing to commit to W, she was in. Since she was still considering Yale her first choice, she didn't know what to do, and called her GC on a Sunday night, at home. GC said: There has to be a mistake--the coach can't do that. Call back. D called back, and there had been a misunderstanding. What the coach had said was this: [Paraphrased, but I think this is very important in understanding how LAC athletics can work]: "The admissions office called me; your application has been through three complete 'reads,' and they want you. They know you've visited several times, and they want to know if you love them back. I have several picks, but I can't use one of them on you. You can make a contribution to our team, but this isn't about that. They want to know where Williams stands with you." My D told them it was between Williams and Yale. The coach said, "OK, I think that's what they want to hear."</p>
<p>Anyway, that's what happened with us.</p>
<p>I see this thread has morphed as it often does on these athletic topics. I had read the article and am thankful for the OP who posted it because I found it interesting and informative. This thread has gone beyond that process, however. </p>
<p>Anything I write now, I have written before on these athletic topic threads but I see some new participants who are now looking at colleges with this next crop of kids so I will simply share my thoughts once more. </p>
<p>There are many student athletes who are "academic scholars" as much as the nonathletic academic standout who is applying to selective colleges. There is a tendency on this forum to think that athletes at selective schools are not as up to par academically. On that front, I will give my personal experience. I have a daughter attending Brown who was not a recruited athlete, though played three varsity sports in high school (and was involved heavily in the performing arts as well) who wanted to continue with these passions in college. She is on Brown's varsity alpine ski team there which is Div. 1. She just got onto the club soccer team which also travels for games to other schools (Yale this weekend). She was not tipped in or anything else. But she is doing sports in college. She is getting all A's so far at a demanding school. At the National Championships, she was awarded Academic All American. The girl from her team who placed second individually at Nationals got that too (that girl is pre med and was studying organic chem during the competition). The team placed second in Nationals. Her practice schedule is demanding but she is used to this from high school. It does not cut into classes. In fall semester, she has two hours every day of dryland training (like physical conditioning). In second semester, they practice out of state two mornings per week at a small ski area so she has to arrange her academic schedule so that she has no morning classes on those two weekdays. She must board a van at 6:30 AM! Then, every weekend, she is off campus at ski races out of state for the entire weekend. Yes, it involves time management! Her life always has! She does not miss classes for the sport. However, the team made Nationals which meant a full week in Idaho and thus a week out of school. At the last minute, the administration was not going to let them go because they did not want students to miss a week of school. That was disappointing. However, it was negotiated and they got to go and each girl contacted each professor, and got permission and got assignments and worked it out. They are all excellent students. My D's club soccer team practices twice/week with games on weekends. On the other days, they have running practices and the like but my D might not be in those as she is doing the same exact thing for two hours with her other team. So, some days she will be going from two hours of dryland practice, to two hours of soccer practice. She is also hoping to make the tap dance troupe and is in intramural tennis. One of her courses is at RISD and is for a six hour block in the day one day/week. She has no classes two days/week this semester by the way her schedule turned out and she is contemplating even filling that (though she has her sports practices later in the day those days) with either an internship at an bilingual French/English elem school (loves French, loves kids, has done this in high school) or an internship with an architect (is going in that direction as far as her intended major). So, um, I don't think all these athletic kids are in school just for athletics. I think they offer much to the student body and in fact, many are top notch academic students as well. </p>
<p>I don't see this as all that different than the pursuit of other heavily committed ECs in college. But for some reason, there is a tendency to zero in on athletes here. But I have a kid in theater too. The commitment to that is very very heavy in terms of training hours in the disciplines of voice, acting and dance, and also the hours for rehearsing productions. Her schedule before college involved every waking hour just about. She just started college and her class schedule due to the nature of a BFA program involves many more hours than any typical college student. Three of the studio class days, for example go from 9-6. Then the hours of the ECs, the crew assignments, the internships, the rehearsals take up just about every other hour, not including the homework, as well as liberal arts. I don't see her any differently than my kid who is doing sports at her school. Both involve a lot of time. Both had the qualifications to be admitted academically at their schools. Maybe this does not fit every athlete you know but it is not uncommon. The athlete is not all that different than the kid who is in some other huge EC at the college. I'm not talking necessarily of Div. 1 athletic recruits where money is involved. But this thread was about D3 and I am talking of scholars who happen to also be athletes. For some reason, that group of kids is constantly denigrated on these forums and I see no difference between that kid and the one who is working to all hours as editor of the college paper or star of the dramatic production. Schools want kids like this. They add to the life of the campus community. It does not mean they are lesser students of the academic variety.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>The student-athlete recruiting game at
the Ivys & selective D3 schools is comprised
of inter-departmental communications between
coaches, admissions, & financial aid.
Example: D was recruited by Smith, but would
not commit early. Ended up being waitlisted.
Even after being waitlisted the recruiting contacts
continued. Admissions contacted her as late as
early June to see if she was still interested.</p>
<p>Second example: D received nice financial aid
packages from schools recruiting her. How nice?
Grant money reduced the EFC by $4000.
EFC says we are responsible for $27000
The recruiting college says $23000, throw in
work study & optional student loans it is $19000.
Coincidentally, the same cost for an in state
student @ Penn State University.</p>
<p>Bulldog,</p>
<p>If they say they will use a tip on you, the only question is the credibility of the coach. If the coach is credible, you will get the tip. </p>
<p>We had the same experience. The problem is, the admission office still has the theoretical ability to 'pull a fast one' and not honor the tip. I don't think this happens often, but I suspect it can happen. Ask the coach how many instances have happened over the years where a tipped recruit was denied. I suspect it is rare but possible. </p>
<p>In our case when I asked "is this a guarantee of admission? Do I have her apply RD to other schools or not?" the coach said-- do apply to the other schools. Though the coach felt very strongly the admission office would honor the tip, and did not report a history tipped athletes being inexplicably denied, the coach reiterated to us that the only "guarantee" of admission was a letter from the admission office.</p>
<p>"This coach has 4 picks-we know that, he told us, and at the D3 level, since my s is in a "timed" sport, I know how many kids are out there in the country with his times-about 20 and half will be getting D1 money, and half won't have the grades. The chances of two of them interested in this school with the same events and the same academic stats would almost never happen. I realize I am being rather specific to my s, but in a case like his wouldn't a coach want to say I want you and I will use a pick on you?"</p>
<p>You ask a good question, and there is no easy answer, though IDad basically got it right. The case below is an illustration of how (and why) the wrestling coach at Williams passed up a better wrestler with higher SAT scores in favor of an apparently less good one with lower scores. I think you can judge for yourself whether you think there might be a generalizable application:</p>
<p>I'm beginning to think (I haven't been there yet) that D1 recruiting seems a bit more "honest" than that at D3 schools. You meet the minimum academic qualifications, and then a decision is made whether to offer you a spot or not. Since I see references to Brown on the board, which is a D1 as opposed to a D3 school, and there is the strange case of Davidson, a D1 school, I wonder if they operate differently? </p>
<p>I heartily agree with the comments regarding the added value to an education that more fully integrates classroom learning with other things of value - athletics or otherwise. In homeschooling our kids, we've actually never even made such a distinction; we don't view the classroom as more valuable, either in itself, or as life preparation. Appropo of another question currently on this board, looking back at it, the most important parts of my college education, and that which has served me best were, in no particular order: music (not the courses, but exposure - I now sing opera, and took up the violin in my late 40s, and a south Indian musical instrument as a result of hearing one on the college radio station at 2 a.m. one night); mentoring (not necessarily classroom-related); learning to write (I never did until I went to Oxford - I was Phi Beta Kappa, and, looking back at it, my classroom-related writing was darn poor); TRAVEL!, and expanding my life expectations. The classroom and the courses were such a small part of any of that - such a small part, in fact, that it begs asking how much I would have missed them!</p>
<p>But the schools have to be honest. If the history profs say the swimmers are missing two weeks of classes out of six, I would tend to believe them. And some folks might think it is worth it (looking back on it, I can't honestly say that I would be substantially worse off if I had missed ANY two weeks of classes.)</p>