I have looked at some of the discussions from students, but not from parents, and most Juniors have gone only as far as Pre-calculus. My son is a junior and his counselor has told him it will hurt his chance to get into college, if he does not take AP Calc AB/BC he is taking Regular Calculus now it is the class to take before AP which is the highest math offered. He moved from CA to VA and had he stayed in CA he would be in AP and in community college math150/151 in senior year. When applications for college are sent out in the summer how does taking a math class in senior affect his admissions? I would like him to have the opportunity to take some electives to figure out where he might like to study. He is in a STEM academy now and has found a some niches, but can’t explore more because of the 1 year (2 semesters) AP class (they use block scheduling). What is the HARM in having a more exploratory senior year? Before I go fight to get this AP class off the books when he isn’t going to take the $150 test anyway. I would like to hear the explanation of why he needs it? We opted him out of AP courses for honors/Adv as the teachers don’t teach the subject they only teach to the test, at least the last one he had. Cross posted to College addmissions.
I just responded to this question in another thread.
I think you are making a pretty big mistake in judgment here. For a kid interested in STEM, AP Calculus is really a fundamental course that is the gateway to many paths, not just one. It’s also the class where strong, engaged math students will be (and the other math classes is where students like that won’t be). What’s more, although I didn’t care for it, and intellectually I question its primacy, I have to admit that many strong students are really turned on by it, find it inspiring in ways that few high school courses are.
For selective colleges, it’s a very important marker of curriculum rigor, which is something they care about a lot. Even students who are mainly interested in the humanities take it, both as a way of showing that they are serious about challenging themselves academically, and because it is generally an introduction to rigor and logic in mathematical proofs, which is something an intellectually ambitious English major can appreciate.
I understand your concerns about “teaching to the test,” but frankly I think that’s a bigger problem in some other AP courses. Even if it is a drawback to AP Calculus, however, it’s not likely that your son will learn much of true value in a less challenging course with less engaged classmates, and it’s not likely that college admissions officers will get what you are doing.
My daughter is very smart and very analytic, but she was mainly a humanities student, and she hated math, despite being in an accelerated math program. When she switched schools in 11th grade, I did not push her or the school to have her take AP Calculus BC. That was a mistake on my part. Later, when she applied to college, her guidance counselor refused to certify that she had taken the most rigorous curriculum available mainly because she hadn’t taken AP Calculus, and that alone probably killed her chances at some of the most selective colleges. More importantly, it forced her to play catch-up in college and graduate school, when there were many other things she would rather have done.
For many colleges it won’t matter at all. For some, it might.
When your student applies to college, the high school counselor will complete the School Report – basically the counselor recommendation. On that form is a series of check boxes asking whether, in comparison with other college prep students at this high school, the student took the “Most Demanding,” “Very Demanding,” “Demanding,” “Average,” or “Below Average” course selections. Choosing not to take AP Calculus (sometimes BC, sometimes either AB/BC) or whatever your school offers as a high level math class might result in the counselor checking one of the lesser boxes.
Highly selective colleges and engineering programs look carefully at the challenge level of classes in senior year in the context of what was available at this specific high school. Many highly selective engineering programs might not look as favorably on a candidate who could have taken the highest math class but who chose not to do so.
Less selective colleges would probably be happy to have him either way, especially if you are full pay. However, many, many colleges REQUIRE four years of mathematics, so he needs to take some kind of math his senior year.
I agree with JHS: AP calculus has become a fundamental high-school course for strong students. If your son is interested in a major in science or engineering, then calculus will be required for the major. Math is the type of thing that one generally needs to “keep at” in order to keep skills up. Later in life, this is less true, but for a high-schooler, continuing in math is almost essential, if the student plans to take math in college. People at my university have done studies, and find that an interruption in math courses pre-college generally harms the student when the student reaches college, if more math is needed.
The AP math curriculum is actually pretty good. I would like to see more emphasis on proofs and concepts like “uniform continuity.” However, most colleges know that those are absent from the great majority of high school programs, so they provide an appropriate bridge to higher-level courses.
It is true that a great many students are in pre-calculus during the junior year. However, if you have been around CC for a while, you will have encountered students who have taken AP Calc BC as early as the freshman year of high school–and occasionally even in 8th grade, or earlier.
okay AP Calc BC as a freshman is crazy so ignore that.
I think “normal” for a STEM major is AP Calc AB senior year. Some are going further than that. Why put yourself behind?
When we visited Boston College a couple of weeks ago, the admissions officer giving the presentation actually stated, in no uncertain terms, that they expect students to take 4 years of each academic subject in high school (including language, all the same language, not just 3 years of one and 1 of another). They don’t like to see students fizzle out before they get to the hardest coursework. If students don’t follow this route, there should be a very good reason why not because it will be questioned.
What’s the difference between “regular calculus” and AP Calc AB? I thought AB Calculus was regular calculus.
The answer to your question will depend largely on the kind of college your son is looking to attend. Top colleges will require the extra math. Tier 3 colleges (and I am not knocking these school as some of my children attened these schools and flourished) will be fine with 3 years of math.
I really like the idea of your son having the opportunity to try some new subject areas. This may really help him to hone in on a college major better. The kids who change majors in college often need more than 4 years to finish and this gets quite costly. I gave my kids time in high school to determine their passions so they were able to get through college much more quickly (3 years and 2 1/2 years).
Is there another class he can drop instead of Calc? Maybe this is a better solution.
My kids’ school had two levels of calculus below the AP class, but they were basically a joke. My kid took one, but learned practically nothing. Part of the issue, of course, was that all of the students who were really interested and who cared about math were in the AP class. The non-AP class covered about a quarter of the material that the AP class did, and not having a test to teach to didn’t make it a better intellectual experience. It was a waste of time and transcript space.
I have no idea what the difference is from regular Calculus and AP AB/BC it is vastly different form precalc. He is slated to take AP AB/BC his entire senior year. He has taken Pre- Algebra, Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, Pre-calculus, Prob/ Stats, and this Semester Calculus. AP will be # 8 of 4 needed. That is why I ask the question. But it looks like the answer is yes he should take it, or quickly decide what schools he want to attend as he has not even begun to look. That in itself is another issue.
I am trying to figure out what the heck they are teaching in regular Calculus now that wouldn’t prepare him for at the least the AB test in the spring. The biggest mistake American kids make is dropping math too soon. A knowledge of calculus required for virtually every science and engineering major and many social science ones. As for the worry about teaching to the test, for math that is really not an issue. The exams don’t cover too little material by any means, in fact some colleges will cover even more topics and students will be encouraged to repeat calculus in college. If you are a student with no calculus senior year competing with kids who have already taken BC, it is likely to be a brutal experience. In the case of calculus, you don’t need to worry about the mile wide inch deep problem of the AP histories or biology curriculum. (Though I personally think a survey course has its place.)
I think exploring other sciences can have its place for accelerated students, but for most I think getting a solid grasp of the basics is far more important and freshman year in college will give you a better choice of courses to explore.
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College applications are not sent out in the summer. At the very earliest they go out in the first month or two of the Fall semester (for Early Action/Decision) applications. Most applications are done during December/January. A senior year schedule is part of the application packet for most (all?) competitive universities.
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I’m curious why he wouldn’t take the AP exam if he were to take AP Calculus. AP Calculus (especially BC) is one of the most “college like” AP classes. It is one of the few technical APs that I feel STEM students can safely use to place out of a college class without missing (almost) any material. This is true even if you have teachers who teach to the test.
I too am wondering what this secret “calculus” is that they’re teaching kids before AP Calculus, that isn’t differential and integral calculus, and that wouldn’t prepare students for the AB exam. Already there is pre-calculus, which is just a review of all the math that a student has already had that he’ll need for calculus. And now we have this mystery calculus lite, too?
@mathmom - Sounds like this “pre AP” Calculus course is a one semester course. My guess would be that it is the HS’s way of giving the teachers and extra semester to teach the AP material, while also slotting the kids into the appropriate Sr year path - AB, BC, not calculus.
Is he planning on being a STEM major? If so, he should probably take AB. If not, it’s likely not going to matter.
Could he take AP stats instead?
@romanigypsyeyes whenever possible, STEM majors should be taking BC not AB.
Sorry, force of habit. At my old high school, you had to take AB before BC.
If he were going to art school or something, I’d say it won’t matter, but as a STEM kid, he should definitely take it. It’s pretty much par for the course and his application will look weak without it (depending on the schools he applies to). And why not take the exam?
It depends on what area they plan on majoring in when they get to college. Not a specific major per se, but what area. If they are a STEM type, then they definitely should be taking math and science all the way through senior year at the highest level they have reached. You want the GC to be able to note that the student took the most rigorous courses available.
Now for my D, who graduated in 2014, she was as far from a STEM major as you can be. She was originally going to major in the Classics but is now, as a freshman, an Intensive Literature major. Knowing her interests, her GC said it was not necessary for her to take Calculus or Physics her senior year. In full disclosure she went to a very rigorous private school which is well known to Yale admissions since they send 4-5 kids each year from a class of 125. She took AP Statistics and some science course that I can’t even remember. She is happily a freshman at Yale.
This is to say that there is not cookie cutter answer. However, kids should look closely at requirements for the particular areas they want to go into AND the schools they are thinking about applying to and plan their schedules accordingly.
It depends. My poor daughter didn’t take calculus in high school. She took four years of math, but her last course was precalculus. Somehow she managed to get a college degree in engineering. Amazing.
DS was a music major. He took algebra 2 in 11th grade, and the. Took economics and statistics (each one semester) his senior year. Somehow he managed to get accepted to a school ranked about 52. Yes, he was a music major…but still.
What does this kid plan to take if he does not take calculus?