<p>To #18.</p>
<p>Let's say 80 of the top 100 schools give merit aid and each of them gives 20 full rides. That is only 1600 out of about 200,000 students (assume 2000 per school). </p>
<p>That is way lower than the admission rate at any top elite schools.</p>
<p>The only 2 comments I want to make about this topic is:</p>
<p>1) Our country's economic classes don't just include the Poor and the Extremely wealthy. The problem is defining the words. I don't consider a 22 year old coming out of college starting pay of $35,000 as being poor. I do however consider a 35 year old married couple with 2 kids and a combined income of $35,000 as being poor. Especially if they live in particular towns. As such; while I do sometimes seek out the advice of my investment broker, I don't necessarily consider myself as wealthy. I do my own taxes and accounting. (When you are born poorer than anyone else you know; and decide to NEVER be that way again; you tend to learn and become motivated on how to increase your wealth). The point however is; there are a lot of people in the middle of the commonly defined words of Poor and Wealthy who make up the majority of our classes.</p>
<p>2) As far as taking a full ride to a public school or paying for a top dream school; that depends on 3 factors.
a: For what I want to study; can the free ride provide the same quality of education I am looking for? Many times probably yes. Sometimes not.
b: Is what I want to study almost guaranteed to require graduate school or beyond. E.g. Lawyer, Doctor, etc... If so, then it makes just about no sense whatsoever to pay for the elite school if you can get a full ride to a public school. Save your money for the graduate or professional school you are going to need. When you graduate and go job hunting, they are going to look at your highest degree.
c: It depends on how much the dream school is going to cost. I.e. If I can get a scholarship, merit, etc... for my dream school and when all is said and done, I will only have approximately $20,000 in loans when I graduate; that may be worth it instead of the full ride to a state school. $20,000 is the same as a car loan. Treated right, it can be paid off in 4-5 years. But, in order to take on that debt; even that low; it would have to be a school that I have very specific reasons for wanting to attend. My parents went there; The NAME; The location; etc... are not good reasons. If i really want to get into the world of science and technology, then paying $5000 a year for MIT is worth it over a full ride to University of Home. A degree in Art history, philosophy, or other liberal arts degree in a concentration that I'm NOT GOING TO GO INTO AS A PROFESSION, is not a reason to pay $20,000 a year or more (Assuming some scholarships), to attend Harvard or Yale.</p>
<p>Of course; this total discussion is based on the premise that we are talking about the 80% of Americans who are middle class and don't have the resources of a the 10% Millionaire who has no problem paying $200,000 for a college education; or the 10% poor who are given a lot of need based financial aid to go to just about any school. To both of these groups; almost any school is a "Free Ride".</p>
<p>Jonri notes"Tax guy looks at a college degree as vocational training. Therefore, to him it makes sense to analyze the problem strictly from a dollar and cents point of view. Analyzed that way, it is foolish to go to dream school. "</p>
<p>Response: Oh contrare. I do value education and ideas. Are you saying that state schools don't give a good education in sound thinking and critical reading?</p>
<p>Franly, post 22 says it better than I could have responded to you.</p>
<p>So I purposefully tried to stay to the facts describing my s's education at his state school. Class size, research opportunities, internships available to him, etc. So what is he missing that your kid at the Ivy has? He is going to classes, being taught by teachers that know much more about subjects than he does at this point in is life, has a great relationship w/profs, has met and worked next to people from all over the world, has opportunities for study abroad. Really, what is he missing?</p>
<p>Sax; what he and you are missing out on are "Bragging Rights". That's it. I can also tell you for a fact. YES, A FACT! That depending on what your degree is in; and at what level you aspire to succeed, attending an Ivy league school can actually be a hindrance to getting a job. I have seen it many times. And, as some one who has hired quite a few people in my time, it has gone through my mind a time or two.</p>
<p>Here's the deal. You get a degree in Business from the University of Michigan. You are looking for a job in Michigan with a quiet type start up company; import/export business; retail; wholesale; etc.... It doesn't really matter. The main point is; not EVERYONE is trying to get a job on Wall-Street. The majority of people aren't looking at working at the Mayo clinic; Fidelity Investments; Law Firm of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. Now; you have an individual with a degree in business from Harvard, Yale, etc... competing with the same University of Michigan graduate for this job; and there are many times where the company or firm WON'T hire the Harvard grad specifically for the reason that they fear they are going to use their company/firm as a stepping stone and leave when the first higher paying job comes along. They may see the University of Michigan grad more as a "LOCAL" kid who can become part of this company. </p>
<p>No, it doesn't always happen. And yes, there are times where someone will hire another based just on the name of the college they went to. The point is however, that not always is the ivy league type school always the better choice.</p>
<p>"Are you saying that state schools don't give a good education in sound thinking and critical reading?"</p>
<p>I'm not Jonri, but the top private schools do this better. Is it enough better to make it worth the extra money? As I said before, how much "better" is a Lexus than a Camry? They're both very nice cars, but the Lexus really is better in a number of ways--but they may not matter to you.</p>
<p>What evidence is there that the top schools do a better job at teaching critical reading and sound thinking?</p>
<p>Thank you sax for asking the question. You beat me to it. There is NO conclusive evidence that an Ivy league school does ANYTHING better than a public school; based SOLELY on the reason of them being that Ivy league school. There are plenty of times where the public school will give the student A BETTER EDUCATION!!! This, is a fact. Most everyone here has even agreed to that. if you want a degree in Archeology or Agriculture, the Ivy league school will not give you as good of an education as certain state schools. THAT IS A FACT.</p>
<p>The problem is; people have to rationalize the cost. When is the last time someone bought a $3000 Flat screen tv; $50,000 lexus; $50,000 rolex; etc... and said to you; "This isn't worth it, I should have bought the Ford".</p>
<p>There are definitely things about EACH SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY that makes them one of the BEST!!!! No one school, or even group of 10-20, are the BEST school, or automatically BETTER than a public school.</p>
<p>I think my initial post (post number 1) summarizes the benefits of attending an IVY or other top expensive school vs. that of a state school.</p>
<p>My daughter is shopping for a new guitar. They come in all price ranges. They will all play musical notes, and all above a certain level will play notes very nicely. A lot of the choice has to do with "fit," and some less expensive guitars are better for certain purposes. However, there is an overall quality improvement as you go up the price ladder. At a certain point, the differences become small enough (to us) that the huge jump in price isn't worth it. I think colleges are the same way: there is an overall quality improvement as you move through the ranks. It doesn't apply to every characteristic of every school, but overall it's true. The key is to figure out what's important to you, what you're willing to pay for it, and where you can get the best deal on it.</p>
<p>But there's probably a reason Isaac Stern preferred a Stradivarius to the fiddle in the window of your local pawn shop.</p>
<p>It is silly and disengenuous to pretend there are no differences, just as it is silly and disengenuous to claim that a kid can't get a top education from even a bottom tier school. It is also silly to claim that all State U's are equal; the residents of Virginia and California and Michigan are frequently posting here wondering why all of us dupes are paying full freight for private U's.</p>
<p>Sorry Hunt; but that analogy has no useful purpose towards school. I tell you what; let's bypass "Blackie", Eric Clapton's Strat guitar that went for $950,000 at an auction. A lot of that price is for collector purposes. Let's stick with say a $2,500 CF Martin acoustic guitar. Very fine guitar. Notably, one of the BEST in the world. However; there is no way in the world that the CF Martin guitar would be worth a darn if used as the lead solo guitar in a hard rock band playing a hardcore garcia song.</p>
<p>That is the point. You can't claim that Harvard, Yale, any ivy or "Elite" school is automatically better than a state school. Best at what???? Developing ELITIST graduates who think they are better than some other people? Maybe; I'll give you that. Other than that; no group of schools can be considered "THE BEST". There are some things that Harvard is THE BEST at. There are some things that the University of Iowa is probably THE BEST at.</p>
<p>let's discuss #22 here. </p>
<p>a) "For what I want to study". I think the statistics shows the average student change their major three times. As an 18 year old, how do you really know what do you want to study. An elite school may offer a whole bunch of majors that are among the best, not just one. </p>
<p>They said the teaching at University level is truely one step up than HS. One could be exposed to something they do not really know in HS. If you pick a school that is excellent in program B and woud like to do program A. You are out of luck.</p>
<p>b) As evident from UG admission, graduates from some HS have a higher admission rate than no name HS. So, going to an elite univ should definitely help one get into top graduate school. </p>
<p>That being said, why do you want to go to an elite school for graduate work? Why "When you graduate and go job hunting, they are going to look at your highest degree." if you think "There is NO conclusive evidence that an Ivy league school does ANYTHING better than a public school"? So, the name of UG is not important but suddenly the graduate school name matters?</p>
<p>Any science graduate student could probably tell you the assessibility to instrument and funding are critical. The elite schools in general have better instruments and the name professors to attract more grant money. </p>
<p>A student at state school may only have assess to one 300 MHz Solid State NMR with limited number probes for the whole school Top private schools may have a 400 MHz in each department.</p>
<p>c. As of this year, for low and middle income families, attending an elite schools costs just about the same as a State U. The services and support available at a rich elite school is better than a state school. Again, we saw posts here on cc about some public HS has one GC for 200 students. Some elite private HS have one GC for 50 students. Who will get a better service?</p>
<p>Also, I saw most of examples of State U are the like of UVa or U Mich, or UCs. These are just handful of State U that everyone agrees that they are at the same level as top elite schools. What are the admission rate for the honor program in these handful state U? I think it just as hard to get into them. Futhermore, the chance of geting a full ride at any of these handful top state U is probably smaller than getting into HYP.</p>
<p>I agree, blossom. Depends on which "state," as others have said on other threads, as well. Your state may have no "top" schools at all, that are public. They might even be "bottom" schools. This is one of the major reasons for middle-class immigrants choosing states with better publics when they're choosing locations.</p>
<p>My son got admitted to his dream school, an elite with new financial aid enhancements that before this year would have cost us $50K yearly. He also got into the engineering program at our instate flagship. COA there is $28+K. </p>
<p>The dream school is giving us FA so that the total to attend is $26K. The instate flagship gave him a $1K scholarship, definitely no offer of a free ride. The dream school is cheaper, and therefore an easy choice. </p>
<p>Since sending in college apps, my S has already changed his mind about his major. The dream school has exactly what he now wants; plus he can chose any other major at any time if he changes his mind again. At the State U he would not be allowed to change out of the engineering college until his junior year. This is another reason he has chosen the dream school.</p>
<p>The top schools recognize the problems middle-income people are having paying their enormous charges, and some of them are helping. The problems remain for the other top schools that aren't giving this extra aid yet (or possibly ever).</p>
<p>My D decided against her dream school 3 years ago when we were faced with paying full freight. She chose a different top school with 1/2 tuition scholarship and tuition remission from H's job.</p>
<p>Oh.
My. God.</p>
<p><em>says she, now older and we hope, wiser:)</em></p>
<p>Christcorp it can work the other way too. I got an architecture job one summer for a small firm in LA. The guy said, I know you don't have the experience for this job, but you went to Harvard, I'm sure I can teach you what you need to know and you'll be up to speed quickly. I also got an architecture job in Germany. My architecture degree is from Columbia, but it was the Harvard degree that got me the job. I know, because my boss said so - I didn't bother to tell him that I didn't learn any architecture at Harvard. It can open doors, even outside Wall Street.</p>
<p>I don't know how my Harvard education compares with the education I got elsewhere, since I have little to compare it with. It wasn't perfect, but I have no regrets. I did take a similar level language class at a CA community college and can tell you unequivocally that we covered more at Harvard.</p>
<p>Oh and I didn't go to Harvard to get rich. And I didn't get rich. :)</p>
<p>mathmom; ummmmm; I'm pretty sure I did say that. There are definitely times where the name Harvard, Yale, etc... will give you the edge in getting the job. There are also times with the name University of Wherever will give you the edge over a competitor graduating from harvard, yale, etc.... I agree with you 100%.</p>
<p>mathmom,</p>
<p>Prior to my D even actually registering for her fall classes, she obtained a job instantly that summer before freshman registration based ONLY on her acceptances to several Ivies. (Employer specifically said so.) Even my D was stunned. (Luckily, she also did a good job.) :)</p>
<p>alumother: that thread was my first real indoctrination into CC. I will never forget it and also thought of it immediately when tax guy put up this thread.</p>
<p>"Oh.My.God." made me laugh out loud</p>
<p>Christcorp: It appears we pretty much have the same views.</p>