<p>Taxguy – Honestly! You calling me an idiot was implied only. Your manners are way to good for anything so obvious. ;] But we both know what you meant. </p>
<p>P.S. you’re a great sparring partner. Sometimes you really get my panties in a bunch.</p>
<p>
[quote]
b: Is what I want to study almost guaranteed to require graduate school or beyond. E.g. Lawyer, Doctor, etc... If so, then it makes just about no sense whatsoever to pay for the elite school if you can get a full ride to a public school. Save your money for the graduate or professional school you are going to need. When you graduate and go job hunting, they are going to look at your highest degree.
[/quote]
I can see the reason for lawers or MDs. What about science research or academia? For those majores usually you can find funding of tuition at graduate level.</p>
<p>I have access to salary information in my company and I recently realized that I make more money with my undegraduate degree from city college than
a couple of our IVY MBAs. Your success will depend on what you do with your life after college and not what college you went to.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If i really want to get into the world of science and technology, then paying $5000 a year for MIT is worth it over a full ride to University of Home.
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Then you would never adjust to the idea of paying $50k for MIT/Caltech over a full rider to state U?</p>
<p>I agree with jonri in post #15. It really depends on ones value. Though I agree most POV from Christcorp.</p>
<p>brysia, you are certainly right on this. In real world the first job may setup an IVY graduate a leg up. But after 10 years or may be even less, there is really no big difference in where you graduate from. It is ones performance at the job which counted the most. </p>
<p>However as parents we all want the best for our kids, if we can afford. That said, as a full pay parents I certainly won't pay for my kid to 'party'; I'd rather pay for a rigor curriculum school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem is; people have to rationalize the cost. When is the last time someone bought a $3000 Flat screen tv; $50,000 lexus; $50,000 rolex; etc... and said to you; "This isn't worth it, I should have bought the Ford".
[/quote]
Funny, you should say that. Actually, we never bought single thing you mentioned above. Heck, we bought every thing in a discount price (we have the patiant, can cut cuppons and wait 'for sell'), even the house. Seems so far the only thing we are going to pay the 'listed price' is this private college education. ... though I would like to get some break, even just tax decuction would be much better.</p>
<p>I think the difference between a state U and ivies is the student body and facility, not so much of teaching skill per se. Normal state U (not talking about Cal, Michigan or UV, etc.) crowded with kids in wide range intelectual levels, while in ivies and top privates because they are so selective, the student body in general would be at similar intelectural level. So in general you have more oportunity to interate with similar minded or intelectural level, be more intelectual stimulated.</p>
<p>Excellent observations. Unfortunately; there are a lot of beliefs out there than think certain things in life are "Priceless". That simply isn't true. EVERYTHING has a price tag on it. Even education. We could without a doubt make an automobile, highway system, safety devices, etc... so that not 1 death ever happened. You could make you house such a way that absolutely no type of accident could ever happen. It is possible; we have the technology. BUT; IS IT WORTH IT??? Not normally. No one is going to spend $100,000 on a car because it is guaranteed 100% to not allow a person to die in it. It's not worth it.</p>
<p>A college education is no different. There are people out there that believe that their son/daughter should go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc... AT ALL COST. That is foolish. Take ALL financial aid out of the equation for a second. No grants, scholarships, need based aid, loans, etc.... NOTHING!!! Would a $50,000 a year education be WORTH it over a ZERO cost education from your state university??? Take it out further. What if Harvard was $100,000 a year? Maybe $200,000 a year. Obviously, there IS A PRICE LIMIT even on college. Obviously, that is the heart of this debate. So, when you hear a parent say that they are going to make sure their kid gets to go to their dream school NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS THEM. They are fooling themselves and you. They don't really mean that. There is a limit where you say; IT ISN'T WORTH IT.</p>
<p>So, that is where it stands. Each person has to decide if it's WORTH IT. Is it worth having $200,000 in debt for the kid to go to school at Harvard? And why Harvard? If there are some here that think Harvard is so much BETTER than the State University; then is it better than Yale; Princeton; Stanford; GW; Brown; Penn; etc...? Where is this imaginary line that make one better? But as far as price goes, that is up to the individual and the family. But, because sometimes PUBLIC funds are used for education, I believe that a family saying the $50,000 a year school is WORTH IT, isn't good enough. If you want to use ALL YOUR OWN MONEY and only PRIVATE FUNDING, then you can have that say so. But if ANY public funds are used, then it isn't totally up to you to decide if it's WORTH IT. If you want your kid to have 10-15 years worth of debt; or if you want to postpone your retirement until you are 70; or if you want to risk your kids having to take care of you 20 years down the road because you are on a "FIXED INCOME"; that is definitely your choice. On the other hand; if you make $500,000+ a year; are receiving private scholarships and private financial aid; then you shouldn't be worried at all.</p>
<p>I only read the OP's post, so if my post restates somebody else's I'm sorry.</p>
<p>The OP mentioned that a dream school could cost $200,000 more than a free ride at a state school. That's only at full price though... and if you are affluent enough to not receive need based aid under the very generous aid policies of top schools, I'd say you're affluent enough to pay that tuition.</p>
<p>Unfortunately; affluent enough to NOT receive need based aid, could be as low as $200,000 a year salary. Now; you might want to believe that is a lot of money. However, that is totally subjective. What if you live in Manhattan? It's not a lot there. What if you have more than one kid. In theory; if $200-$250K was the far end limit and it sounds like a lot; and they should pay FULL PRICE; if you had twins and both wanted to go to harvard; there is absolutely no way you could pay $100,000 a year; 50% of your income for their college. Sorry; but have blanket statements such as; "If this, than this" just can't cut it. You perception of "Affluent" is based on your financial status and your local economic perspective.</p>
<p>It is very hard to quantify the value of a given experience as it pertains to different lives. I attended an expensive private school and I know, without any doubt whatsoever, it was a life changing experience that would not have been achieved at State U. However, there are certain intangibles related to that experience that were fairly unique to me as an individual. I would assert this is true for most on some level or another. Sometimes deciphering value in a discussion like this requires examining things on a much more granular, individual level. </p>
<p>Some, maybe even most, will be able to thrive just fine at State U., and as such, maybe a case is easily made that they should save their money depending on how all of the other variables apply. I think others may thrive differently and more positively within an Elite school environment. I'm not just speaking of class sizes, personal attention, and that whole bit, but rather, specific learning cultures that can be more powerful and influential on certain types of students when exposed to it in a concentrated environment. Publics create honors programs to try to replicate that, but many don't quite pull it off. </p>
<p>Would I go into $200k debt for it? No, definitely not. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate in suggesting there can certainly be real differences that might make additional costs to attend an Elite school worth it. But it really goes back to the kind of student involved.</p>
<p>flvadad. Agreed. Your sentiments have been expressed many times here. There are indeed times when the cost; high or low; could indeed be WORTH IT. I believe the main argument is that a school, dream school, ivy, elite, etc.... isn't BETTER than a State "U" JUST BECAUSE it's an Ivy, elite, etc... If there were; just because of the status and price tag; then there would have to be a better and a worse between Harvard and Yale. Caltech and MIT. Princeton and Stanford. etc.... Schools are divided into just a "THem and Us" grouping. "Rich and Poor". "Private and Public". There's schools like UCLA, U of Texas, etc... that are considered some of the BEST in the country for what they do.</p>
<p>And as far as experiences go; all the would of, could of, and should of, in choosing a school is so arbitrary. Unless it's an abstract thing such as; "I never would have met my wife if I hadn't gone to Yale"; then it's difficult to say if the experience is BETTER than another place or an experience that you couldn't have gotten somewhere else. It's too arbitrary. Granted, the experience you received at that point and time at that place is indeed unique. However; could you have had a BETTER experience some place else. You will never know. It would have definitely been a DIFFERENT experience.</p>
<p>There are so many reasons to want to go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.... But, that list should also include University of Here; So and so State; etc.... The reason should be because EACH school is individual and you are looking for particular and individual traits about that school that attract you. To believe that a school is better because of the price tag or it's name is simply rationalizing a "Status Symbol". Imagine the conversation between a kid and their parents or friend. "Where do you want to go to college?" "Oh, I want to go to Princeton?" "Why is that?" "Well,,,,,, Because it's Princeton?" That's pretty much what I'm talking about. As opposed to; mentioning their literature classes, business classes, campus, local environment and social opportunities, etc.... That's the difference. Now; is it worth it? That goes back to all the other posts about what you want out of it and are you willing to go into debt if necessary for it.</p>
<p>FLVADAD, very well said.</p>
<p>Well, Christcorp, we certainly don't make $250k, what we have is what we saved and only ONE kid, the choice made long time ago that the college cost is the most expansive cost in raising kid here. Neither did we expect someone else pay our kid's education. Though the 'full rider merit scholarship' did come into mind from time to time. However the kid made it (family agreement is that we do our best to make money pay the college. his job is to make it into the best college he could) and we all agree his DREAM school is the best 'FIT'. ... So now we are 'proud' parents qualify for paying 'full freight' to a 'need-based' private institute simply because we worked our butt off, scrimped hard, made right choic/decisions, 'successed' too soon. No we couldn't make our kid to apply any 'merit-based' scholarship from the list his HS provided. Almost all of them mentioned 'income' 'finantial' consideration one way or other. The 'kid' think it 'un ethic' even to apply since we not qualify for 'needed'. He absolutely has no concept of how OUR money is made, only the ones have similar experience can appreciate the effort. ^^ so you should be satisfied that we use ALL our own private fundding to pay our kid's private college education. Although I'm kind dissapointed that we can't even get the same tax benifit like those private institution fundding 'need-based' FA and those who receive them.</p>
<p>There is no question that an education at a top private school is a luxury, not a necessity. Like any other luxury, whether it is worth it to you, even if you have the money, depends on what you value.</p>
<p>Hunt notes,"There is no question that an education at a top private school is a luxury, not a necessity.</p>
<p>Response: Absolutely right, in my opinion!</p>
<p>Hunt sums it up in a nutshell with post #72!!! After all, who WOULDN'T want to have the "best" of everything, preferably paid for by someone else!!! Hey, maybe the colleges should have a lotto system where the chances of winning FA is totally random and everyone's chance of winning is "equal", making it "fair" for everyone!</p>
<p>"Would a $50,000 a year education be WORTH it over a ZERO cost education from your state university??? Take it out further. What if Harvard was $100,000 a year? Maybe $200,000 a year. Obviously, there IS A PRICE LIMIT even on college. Obviously, that is the heart of this debate."</p>
<p>Actually, as the price of the college goes up, so does its prestige value. (Read Veblen). It becomes more, rather than less, desirable, especially among those who would emulate the behavior of those who can truly afford it. </p>
<p>There is probably a price limit - but we are far, far from it.</p>
<p>anothernjmom; I feel your pain. You are correct that working hard, saving, planning, being financially responsible, etc... can sometimes have a negative impact on what you would expect. You are part of the crowd that can't get need based aid for most schools.</p>
<p>The only thing I can suggest, is that there are a lot of scholarships out there. Most scholarships are achievement and merit based. Don't believe that because a school doesn't offer merit scholarships, that they don't exist. There are thousands of scholarships out there that will allow your child to go to almost any school. Getting these scholarships just require applying and praying. When my daughter graduated high school, she received 2 scholarships. Her dorm room mate hat 6 scholarships. They ranged from $1000 a year to $4000 a year. All 6 scholarships combined gave her th opportunity to go to college on a full ride. These scholarships are all private, but there's plenty of them out there. For this one young lady, she had scholarships from her church, girl scouts, Masonic Temple, local credit union, and a couple of others. A kid 2 years ago paid to go to princeton on multiple scholarships. He was able to come up with about $30,000 a year in renewable scholarships. He had work program on campus to take care of most of the rest. When he was done at princeton, he had a total debt of about $10,000. Not bad. Anyway, there are ways. Just search and be creative. If you want the elite/ivy/high priced school enough, you can do it. If it's too much of a hassle, then there are plenty of other schools. Good luck,.....</p>
<p>I find these numbers interesting.</p>
<p>The average price of a new car in 2007 was $28, 715</p>
<p>Average tuition and fees (does not include room and board) at a 4 year public institution in 2007 was $6,185</p>
<p>So after 4 years--$24, 740 spent in tuition and fees (of course this doesn't include books).</p>
<p>Tuition and fees at your average 4 year public college over 4 years is cheaper than the price of a new car, and probably about the same if you add the price of books etc.</p>
<p>Also, that 24, 740 dollars should be seen as a good investment, because your average salary with a 4 year degree is higher than without--by some estimates it is almost double ($43, 782 vs. $23, 594). </p>
<p>But a car loses its value almost immediately.</p>
<p>Try gold or platinum jewelry. ;)</p>
<p>In our case we have many issues brewing that may cost a lot of money in the future. The question becomes whether an expensive college should be where we put our money, thereby jeopardizing our ability to pay for some other things that can be more critical. That is what many families face. You may have the major bread winner in a job that does not look too stable without many other opportunities at that income bracket. You may have a family member who is now stable but has a medical condition that could need immediate expensive treatment. You may have other children in the family that have needs that are not yet out there, but definitely a possibility. When you commit to a $200K 4 year ride, that can really tighten up the money in a family, making it difficult to do other things. And I am not talking about a second home, or new cars, new furniture or other luxuries. I am talking about helping out a grandmother, or a cousin who has a true need. Perhaps providing important flexibility for an upcoming situation. That has to be weighted against using the money for an expensive college.</p>
<p>In our case, we are eligible for merit money only, and loans. Our state has inexpensive options, and our son has gotten a full ride offer at one of his state options. He also has options in the $50K range to more selective schools . In between he has some merit money at some colleges that mitagates the cost somewhat, and he has been accepted to some state schools with no scholarships offered but low sticker prices and good reputations.<br>
I know that my second son wants to enter a field that is very uncertain in terms of income. He is actually going to become a poor, starving artist, LOL. For him to take out loans for college would have caused additional burdens. I have put aside some money for him since he has saved us considerably by going to a state school. This will give him some breathing room when he is out there trying to make it in his field. Frankly, I would have probably coughed up the money, had he gotten into his first choice programs, but I would not have the funds to help him once he got out, had I done so, since I would have 3 more to get through college. With our family, we just have a lot of demands and we have to prioritize them.</p>
<p>Hmm as interesting as all this is, I have a plan that will shatter all of your emperical evidence lol. I plan to go to an ivy league school and take out as much debt as i need. However, while I am there, I will be looking for any attractive, rich woman that i could marry. Yes, thats right. If i marry into a rich family, it doenst really matter how much money i make or what my debt is. Sure i might graduate with 200,000 in debt, but hey, I am now considered family in one of the richest families in the world. </p>
<p>All in all, I plan on working a cushy job at my father in laws fortune 500 company, and just spending time with my wife, who is the heiress to billions. To me, this seems like the way to go, and if i had to hazard a guess, i would say my retirement plan is looking pretty darn good too. =)</p>
<p>PS, full price Lexus, or free Camry? Hmm, how 'bout a Bentley? Or maybe a Maybach? No, i know, how about them both? Yeah, being rich sounds good and that 200,000 debt? Baby thats gone the day I hear "I do".</p>