It very much depends on how the institution does the counting.
Here is an example from this yearsâ admission cycle. Two kids from the same high school apply to the same tough admission for OOS state university. Kid A has a higher UW GPA 3.88 vs. kid B 3.77. Kid A has an SAT score well below the 25% range. Kid B SAT is right in the middle range of SAT scores. Similar rigor, similar ECs, kid A applies test-optional and gets in. Kid B submits scores and gets rejected.
Pre-covid Kid A more than likely doesnât even apply with the low SAT score. Would kid B have had a better chance of getting in Pre-Covid? One difference between the two was demonstrated interest. Both did EA, and both got deferred. Kid A did the extra essay, an extra virtual info session, and several emails. Kid B sent one email.
One takeaway is demonstrated interest after deferral. With more applications and more use of EA, it will mean more deferrals. Kids may need to get used to being determined and not discouraged after a deferral.
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Yes, I agree that international students are not counted in diversity stats.
I suspect that some of the students receiving acceptances are taking a few more AP courses and exams and/or winning STEM prizes. In a test-optional world where there is a lot of grade inflation, I have the sense some schools are looking more to AP exams and STEM competitions to evaluate rigor and preparedness.
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If you believe the stuff on reddit, there are international schools in prosperous Asia packed with full-pay US citizen children. Many hire $$$ consultant services to âbring upâ ECs to par with whatâs available in the U.S. Many do well in exmissions - but here is the key, maybe they would anyway, had they been in the U.S.
That very likely wonât help you either( except if you are in a group where scores are very low. I think the tide has really turned with TO. Even a perfect 1600 isnât going to get you in.
Even before widespread test-optional/blind, at the most selective colleges, it was more the case that a low (relative to the collegeâs range) SAT or ACT score kept you out, but a high SAT or ACT score did not get you in.
The same is true for many other aspects of the application like high school record, extracurriculars, essays, recommendations â a relatively weak showing in that part of the application keeps you out, but a strong showing does not get you in, since you need strong showings in all aspects to get in, at least in the absence of a major hook.
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ooooooh are you at my international school in SEA?? i would say applying as an american (whatever race/color) was WAY less appealing and successful (male AND female) vs others at ours. Better odds being in the US pool vs the international pool (unless it EU bc who in the EU wants to come and pay US prices for uni)
I will say the problem extends to the whole grade since t50s cant accept so many students from the school/region/same demographics so they end up also canibalizing each other as well (and these are kids with 4.5 gpas and 1550+ sats!)
There is a small subset of super winners and then everyone else really
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No, different geography but applied as EU, believe it or notâŠstill think being in the international pool was very tricky this year (mix of gender/racial diversity/not a first gen)âŠ
Glad LACâs are still somehow under the radar for some international studentsâŠat least for now
LACs are getting attention on our end bc being shut out across the board in the bigger schools has been painful for many so they are beginning to radiate out; its hard for LACs bc of the remoteness/distance to any airport (forget international airport!)
esp for flights to Asia - so they are still not as popular as they should be
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Similar from MENAâŠ
So you think diversity is being achieved at the expense of âtalentâ. How do you define talent?
I am only saying that talent should have nothing to do with race, gender, being a first generation or notâŠ
Does diversity define talent? Does gender determine talent? Does the fact your parents went to university define talent? I hope it does notâŠ
It appears you are suggesting your kid who didnât get accepted was more âtalentedâ than these other kids who benefited from âracial diversityâ quotas. I am not suggesting you are right or wrong just if we are going to discuss as you put it âthe elephant in the roomâ letâs just say it.
So how are you defining talent⊠would you be comfortable explaining it to the Indian or Pakistani kid you reference and comfortable concluding to them that they are âless talentedâ relative to your son?
Personally, I view talent as the summation of many attributes some measurable others intangible. An example would be resilience. For instance the Pakistani kid followed around a store because âhe looksâ like a threat or the Indian kid who has her acceptances to elite colleges falsely attributed to her race but none the less thrives. For me students that display this sort of resilience are the type colleges should seek out.
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I actually have lived as an expat in both Asia (pre kids) and the EU (with kids) so pretty familiar with a variety of cultures. As a former comparative religion major who went to work on Wall Street (post MBA), I have studied and experienced first hand a variety of socio economic, societal and cultural systems and geographies so not exactly âlimitedâ or âimitativeâ as you suggest.
I believe it is a bit of a straw man argument to devalue diversity ambitions in one culture based on a class system in another. Yes, in many parts of the world classism, racism and sexism exist, but are you suggesting that in the US we shouldnât pursue equality based on these other biased systems?
I also think it convenient to dismiss anotherâs views by simply describing it pejoratively as naive, just as it is easy to use nebulous terms like âtalentâ to help one come to terms with disappointment. Letâs be honest, in your view if your kid had gotten into their top choices the system would have worked, the most worthy and âtalentedâ kids would have prevailed and all would be right in the world.
It is unfortunate your kids results werenât as you would have hoped and I hope he thrives where he lands.
And just for clarity what EU country did you apply from where your kid was an ethnic minority?
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Wait, you mean that minorities still face various extra challenges that majorities may be naive to or deny exist?!?
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Can we re-emphasize that no one of Indian or Pakistani heritage is getting a leg up at American universities on the basis of diversity, ethnicity, race, or underrepresentation? These are classic ORM demographics. A leg down, if you will. Or if internationals arenât categorized by race (doubt this, though), then they are playing on the same level as whites. Meanwhile as pointed out elsewhere, they donât enjoy the privileges of not being profiled as potential terrorists, other racism, etc., which is a problem directed at South Asians in the US, Europe, and even within many Asian countries.
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Yes, except what has changed is that if you were strong in every category and had a super strong SAT, national accomplishment and strong GPA, your chances were much higher. Today with TO, theyâve been cut by a lot.
Itâs likely the hooks are pushing out the unhooked, even if the unhooked are outstanding in every category. And that is coupled with few fewer spots going to ED. The EDâs are smart, playing the game and getting spots based on dual commitment between the college and student.
Perhaps, the unhooked canât compete with excellent in every category and a couple of hooks. The formula has definitely changed. Hooks trump stats ( as there are enough hooks with high stats that they donât need the highest stat kids who are unhooked). If you look at many posts this year, it was the highest stat kids (>1500, near perfect/perfect) who were unhooked who did the poorest. The moderately high GPAs who fit the normal mode had more offers. Perhaps, colleges determined the kids with perfect stats were unlikely to attend while those further down fit the normal pattern.
Impossible to really say unless all data could be assessed and thatâs not ever going to happen.
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The issue is parents and students believe a false heuristic, that the âeliteâ universities are filled with the most academically gifted students. This is not the case. The rankings and definitions of âeliteâ are disconnected from the average academic performance of the student body, and appear to be becoming more so.
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The most selective universities are filled with academically gifted and talented students. There are more academically gifted and talented students who apply to these schools than there are spots. Therefore, not all of the gifted and talented will receive acceptances. In fact, MOST of the gifted and talented will not receive an acceptance (5% acceptance rate = 95% rejection rate). Thus, colleges select which gifted and talented students they want which fill whatever buckets/priorities those colleges want. It is not a reflection on the abilities of those who were accepted or denied.
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