Is EA Backfiring for High Stats Kids?

[sursumcorda]

@Alqbamine32

(if they felt that the net price calculators were trustworthy).

Yes, my son23 only applied to 6, and three were basically auto-admits with a good chunk of merit scholarship off tuition and further merit competitions still on-going.

But in another post I wrote about how our aid calculators were totally off even for FAFSA and why. It has to do with where our savings are (they are not in housing or retirement for various reasons much to do with being in the middle-middle income), complicated bio-dad situation, and the fact they count child support as income because we get it this year, but it will end next year when college starts and there is no where to indicate that. So our EFC came back at more than our current household income! It was just under our 2 year old taxes household income.

Financial aid does not like complicated situations. And we can’t count on it since our income jumps all around. That is why the SCEA was good- it’s a school that meets need without looking at bio-dad but using a CSS-type thing so everyone’s “wealth” counts whether it’s in housing or in retirement accounts or just in the bank like ours. He didn’t get in, which is fine. For us, the calculators were totally off, but I was prepared for that.

Families in that range can qualify, but the more they have saved- and we are obsessive savers, even on $50,000, we saved money-- the more those “assets” count against them. In the small print it says “with typical assets” for that income level. Who decides typical assets, I am not sure, but the FAFSA EFC I was sent would mean after 4 years having spent something like 40% of our entire net worth- which isn’t all that high to begin with!

[DigitalDad]

@blossom

a kid needs to apply to 12, 18, 30 colleges

…which in turn forces colleges to manage their yield very actively - because on average, 11/12th to 29/30th of accepted students will NOT enroll!

[DadBodThor]

Game theory is a son of a ■■■■■.

[gardenstategal]

Most complaints about “over-qualified” applicants getting turned down are NOT about rejections from their top choice schools but about getting turned down by schools which seemed to have favored “lesser” applicants.

Often, the demonstration of fit is better and enthusiasm for the school is stronger from the “lesser” applicant, and that is what makes the case for acceptance. In many cases, all students who meet a certain threshold are then considered for fit and whst they’ll bring to the community. Both students above have passed the initial screen, and the decision is made on other factors. So the stronger stats don’t provide any edge at that point.

As a parent of a high stats kid (and with grade inflation and access to test prep, LOTS of students are high stats), it’s easy – and satisfying-- to over-weight the impact of stats on the application.

[EconPop]

@Mwfan1921

I agree that students who are merit hunting typically need to apply to a higher than average number of schools. With that said I am not talking about applying to 20+ schools, there’s really no need for that, even for merit hunters. No way to do a good job on the many essays/other prep work that one would have to undertake to apply for all those competitive scholarships.

A student only needs one affordable safety that they would be happy to attend, and as UCB says, for many that is their local CC. The whole idea of ‘fit’ is relatively privileged…many, maybe most students don’t have the luxury of choosing the best fit because they have to choose what is affordable, fit be darned.

OF COURSE I would disagree with a lot of this . As you know, for S20 we applied to dozens of schools. For some, there is a need for this many applications for families seeking a certain type of school (whatever that type might be for each family) and who needs significant Financial Aid. I agree with @sursumcorda that (for high stats or average stats) the pursuit of FinAid almost dictates applying to at least 20 schools.

Also, regarding the assumption that there is “no way to do a good job on many essays etc,” I would say The Way is in the eye of the beholder. For a family/student with little need for FinAid, there is “no way” because there is no motivation because there is no need. For a family with great need, there is huge motivation to figure out the way to do a good job on as many essays, research, etc as it takes to accomplish the goal.

I also push back a little on the statement about having one safety eliminates the need for more applications. Yes, S20 would have been okay with attending one of our in-state publics that were his only safeties. As with any other family, we do what we have to do, and if that was the only option remaining he would have done it. But the goal was, if possible, not attend those schools. So yes, he had his safeties but none of the safeties was the goal of the application season.

Personally, I applaud the effort, guile, and good sense @sursumcorda is putting into their effort.

[EconPop]

@Alqbamine32

Really, the depressing part of your quote is that families in the range you mentioned “don’t qualify with any/enough” aid. Perhaps the ideal would be if more colleges repurposed a proportion of their merit budgets in order to increase the scope of their need based program, thus aiming the recovered funds at families which make 40K-90K or whatever income the college deems as middle-class. Or if they limited their merit awards to families making under 150K or whatever. Sure, have merit awards but don’t offer them to upper income families.

I think (emphasis on “think”) some colleges arrange it that way because the colleges are trying to attract/enroll a wide range of all types of capable students.

In the case of High Stats Middle Class students, Merit Aid is the path to helping more good students who attend good schools and earn good grades and good test scores. Throughout K-12, these middle class students/families have access to the schools/tools/advantages needed to qualify for the Merit Aid to make some of these schools affordable.

In the case of Lower Income students who attend not-as-good schools and maybe earn not-as-good grades and not-as-good test scores, Need Based Aid might be the path to helping attract/enroll more of these students.

In my research for S20 I reviewed the CDS for dozens of universities/colleges and I almost always saw more middle class students than lower-income students attending. It did not appear to me that additional Merit Aid needed to be added at the cost of reducing Need Based Aid to truly lower-income families/students. Or that the FinAid parameters should be rearranged in such a way to favor more high stats students from middle-class backgrounds at the result of disadvantaging lower-income applicants’ chances at being able to afford to attend.

[CollegeNerd67]

@sursumcorda

I think the system is broken because the EA explosion is being used to fill classes, the whole process is occurring too early in senior year,

I would love to see every high school senior in the U.S. be required to take a mandatory gap year after high school where they could fully explore college (and other) options without the added stress of schoolwork, sports and the many other senior year activities. Maybe they could do community service and/or work during that year and colleges (and the Federal Government) could be convinced to give them tuition credits for the hours they put in. Every 18-year-old can benefit from spending time in the workforce, if they haven’t done so already. College applications could be submitted any time during the gap year without the stress of EA deadlines. Plenty of time for visits without the stress of missing high school class days.

This could also give kids who aren’t completely sure about whether college is for them, time to consider other options - again without the stress of parents and college counselors breathing down their necks to “GET THOSE APPLICATIONS IN!” and it would give families more time to assess finances.

[4Gulls]

Agree, it’s restrictive but intentionally so. The SCEA schools want you to identify the one school that you want most. Stanford? Harvard? Georgetown? It’s their way of narrowing the pool and selecting from a pool that loves them back. Otherwise, these overly aggressive, Ivy or bust kids would be applying to all of them. Most kids that apply SCEA also send out EA apps to the same list of schools: UMich, UVa, UWisconsin, maybe their state flagship. You can also apply to foreign schools, so McGill often makes that list. Of course, what this does is inflate the EA pool for those schools. I’ve often wondered if the back-up EAs hold releasing their EA results until after SCEA and ED results are released (and those ED students have, hopefully, withdrawn their applications as required. Yield protection…) One thing I’ve never understood is students who apply to ALL of the Ivies. Makes no sense, as the schools are so different.

[blossom]

@EconPop

In my research for S20 I reviewed the CDS for dozens of universities/colleges and I almost always saw more middle class students than lower-income students attending. It did not appear to me that additional Merit Aid needed to be added at the cost of reducing Need Based Aid to truly lower-income families/students. Or that the FinAid parameters should be rearranged in such a way to favor more high stats students from middle-class backgrounds at the result of disadvantaging lower-income applicants’ chances at being able to afford to attend.

This was a strategic decision made by the college… not an unintended consequence.

Your 100 budget for financial aid-- do you give 100 kids a dollar each (obviously making up the numbers for simplicity sake) to give them that push to choose you vs. competitor college, or do you give 50 bucks to two low income kids— which may not be enough after all- to get them to attend?

Your dollars go further with merit. And the colleges understand that merit aid doesn’t help low income kids.

[EconPop]

I agree completely that it is a strategic decision by the colleges. And as you pointed out, it’s a decision that results in the intentional consequence of enrolling more high-stats middle class students. That’s great.

What I wanted to point out is that allotting X dollars to attract/enroll lower-income students is another strategic decision that is (hopefully) having the intended consequence of getting them to enroll. And I’d hope that objective won’t be diminished by diverting FinAid funds from efforts to attract/enroll lower-income students to other demographics.

[1NJParent]

@4Gulls

Most kids that apply SCEA also send out EA apps to the same list of schools: UMich, UVa, UWisconsin, maybe their state flagship… I’ve often wondered if the back-up EAs hold releasing their EA results until after SCEA and ED results are released (and those ED students have, hopefully, withdrawn their applications as required.

AFAIK, few, if any (@Mwfan1921 may know some exceptions), of these “back-up” (to SCEA/REA/ED) publics release their EA decisions in December, partly because they lack sufficient resources to process all their numerous EA applications before yearend and partly because they don’t wish to be backups to those private SCEA/REA/ED schools.

[DadOfJerseyGirl]

@Alqbamine32

have merit awards but don’t offer them to upper income families.

The problem is, there is often a gap between what a school thinks a family should be able to pay and what they can actually afford to pay. Merit awards help such families (and also help the school by attracting high stat students).

Top athletes get rewarded for their athletic achievements via athletic scholarships. Why shouldn’t top scholars similarly receive a merit scholarship for their academic achievements?

[Mwfan1921]

Thanks for sharing insights into your S’s college process/search. I understand that for some families there can be good reasons to apply to more than 20 schools, and I also applaud the time, effort, and education that both the parent and student devote to the process.

At the same time, IME that time intensive process doesn’t work for many families, whatever the reason(s). This has been the case for not only most of the limited income families I work with, but middle class and full pays as well. I will continue to think about this and how I can serve families better…but in the end, I can only advise, I can’t make them heed the advice and/or do the work.

I also know there are students who can continue to produce top notch essays, do research and prepare for admission/scholarship interviews, etc…but I have never worked with a student whose effort and output didn’t trail off as we head into mid-senior year, not the tippy top students, not the EFC 0 students, not the average excellent students. But yes, I know there are students like that, but I don’t think it’s common.

Lastly, I often see a psychological impact when students and parents experience (A) denials from applications or (B) an acceptance followed by an inadequate financial aid package…and this impact is magnified at scale when we are talking 20+ schools.

Both outcomes can affect students and their parents deeply, from individual guilt to blaming each other, and many other emotions that might come into play. It can be difficult for parents and students to anticipate the impact of A and B outcomes, process those emotions, and work thru them as a family. I have seen lasting damage to parent-student relationships due to college admissions, full stop.

In summary, I do appreciate that every student’s search is unique and personal to their family’s situation. I have personally benefitted (and I hope some of my students have too) because of what you have shared about your S20’s search.

[Mwfan1921]

@1NJParent

AFAIK, few, if any (@Mwfan1921 may know some exceptions), of these “back-up” (to SCEA/REA/ED) publics release their EA decisions in December, partly because they lack sufficient resources to process all their numerous EA applications before yearend and partly because they don’t wish to be backups to those private SCEA/REA/ED schools.

That has always been the rumor, but I have yet to hear an AO admit this! But I do believe it’s an issue at some schools.

And if true, I don’t understand why they can’t hire more external app readers at $20/hour. If UCLA (the school with the most apps at around 150K) can hire enough readers (400ish AFAIK) and read every app twice, then really no school has an excuse that they just had too many apps to get thru in a timely manner.

Another reason that we have seen many EA schools push EA decisions into Jan/even Feb is that they don’t want to admit a student who gets admitted to their ED school in mid Dec (makes sense from a yield standpoint). I have heard a number of AOs confirm this reason when explaining their timing.

[Mjkacmom]

Where I live, $150,000 is not high income, at all. We aren’t eligible for FA, and none of our in state options are cheap, not even community college. My kids worked their butts off in high school because they needed merit. What would be great is if COL was part of financial formulas.

[Have_faith143]

As long as people honestly withdraw. I’ve seen discussions on Reddit where people got into a school like northwestern ED but note they plan to to see results of other schools and no commenters flinched. Very dishonest and not given good advice by people around them probably.

[JBSeattle]

I also believe the current system has some balance between merit aid vs financial aid by the schools themselves. My D would have loved to attend Reed but it is $80k a year and they don’t give merit aid, just financial aid. So, I told her not to apply as I knew we would not qualify for financial aid.
This policy results in students attending that either can pay full freight or get meaningful financial aid. And, there are many other “Reed’s” just as there are many colleges that are more merit heavy and less financial aid oriented.

[blossom]

Mike- I live in a high cost of living area and I agree. But when you meet people from around the country, you realize- a formula is a formula, and no single mechanism is going to be fair/easy to administer for everyone. Eldercare- should that figure in to a family’s disposable income calculation? of course not. Except when YOU’RE the one paying for it. A disabled adult child living at home, who has out of pocket expenses not covered by insurance-- but that person’s care would be less expensive (for the family) if they moved him/her out of the home and into an institution – that’s a personal choice, right? Except when it’s YOUR choice. Paying for parochial school for younger kids when the local schools are free? A funky alimony/child care situation which worked for the family except now the HS kid is getting $%^& in financial aid-- shoulda thought of that ten years ago during the divorce proceeding, no?

This is a big, diverse country with a lot of situations which aren’t going to be exactly fair to every person in every instance. Like the tax code. You like in a state where you are paying less in federal taxes than the state takes in. Some of those grants “pork”? Doesn’t matter. You live in NY, you are subsidizing fellow citizens who live in the “porkier” states.

[DadBodThor]

i agree, but i totally get that temptation… my son waited until the last minute to withdraw from his other EA schools after getting his ED because he wanted to see. He did withdraw before the deadline at least so he isn’t likely taking up another kid’s spot.

[ucbalumnus]

@DadOfJerseyGirl

Top athletes get rewarded for their athletic achievements via athletic scholarships. Why shouldn’t top scholars similarly receive a merit scholarship for their academic achievements?

Be sure to consider the nuance that merit (academic or athletic) for the purpose of scholarships issued by the college is defined as desirability to that college of an admit who can be influenced to attend by a discount.

I.e. what one college considers meritous may be different from what another college considers meritous.