<p>audiophile - And what did you do for the schools that didn't accept the Common App? Fair's fair you know.</p>
<p>Again, I think it boils down to most kids (not all) not really being ready to evaluate fit.
My friends D chose an urban campus- even applied ED. Thought she loved it. Now, after attending, knows that she HATES it. She says it's noisy and dirty and she wishes there was a central place to gather. I know lots of these kinds of stories.</p>
<p>^ I'm certain a lot of 18 year olds are not ready to evaluate fit ... perhaps even most 18 year olds. But that's hardly the point. These "kids" are legally adults. We let them drive cars without supervision. We let them enlist in the military. We let them marry. The point is that adults should have some capacity to decide what's good/right/appropriate for themselves, and they won't develop that capability until they begin making the decisions that affect their lives. Whether a student feels "Attending XXX University was the best decision I ever made" or "I can't WAIT to get of this Hell Hole" it's valuable lesson. (Isn't that what Mombot's post #198 is saying?)</p>
<p>^^ agree - but perhaps there's a way that parents can coach kids to TRY to be a bit more open minded. After all, in many cases, the parents are funding the education, and a big mistake can mean a big expense. So if student says, "Yuk, I hate rural schools with cows" - parent says, "OK, but let's check one out just to make sure you're impression is accurate." Or maybe take them to a football game to see if it's really as awful as they think it is.
It's a bit strange...YES, they ARE adults....but many are still fully supported by their parents. I didn't feel like an adult until I was on my own.</p>
<p>But one can also disregard fit at one's peril. S's friend (mentioned on another thread) rather conservative, decided that Hampshire college was great in her major (and it is). But she hated other classes and especially the social scene. She stuck it out until her junior year when she transferred to Amherst. Amherst is not exactly a hotbed of conservatism, but it's less "in your face" liberal than Hampshire, again especially when it comes to the social scene.</p>
<p>Marite wrote:
[quote]
I don't think fit means that a student will find everything perfect: perfect roommate, perfect profs, perfect fellow students, perfect courses, perfect schedules, throughout four years.</p>
<p>But a student who wants to go on studying ballet should look into opportunities for doing so. Ditto the student who wants a chance to study abroad, to have smaller classes, to be able to come home occasionally without spending two days in the air. A student who wants to study engineering would certainly be better off in a school that does offer engineering.</p>
<p>We cannot know in advance if a wonderful teacher will be there all four years (see Randy Pausch); we cannot know in advance if the roommate will be compatible or not. What we know is that the location of a college will not change, nor its size (except at the margin), that its curriculum and requirements will not change drastically overnight.</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>Actually, it has nothing to do with pricetag. LACs are very likely to shut out students from classes in order not to exceed a certain maximum. By and large, profs at LACs have to do the grading themselves. It is not realistic for them to grade hundreds of papers and exams; so there needs to be a cap on enrolment. The same goes for classes with labs and seminars. S1 at his LAC was shut out of several classes he really needed.
S2 at his mid-sized research university has never been shut out of any class. But his largest class had nearly 300 students in it. Same price tag (adjusting for inflation).</p>
<p>Re:calmom's anecdote about clothes. I don't think that fit means it has to fit from the get-go, but that it has the potential for fitting after some tweaking. I have to hem up every single pair of trousers I buy (Land's End hems for free!). It does not mean I will turn up my nose at every pair of trousers I see. But I will not buy trousers in a size that I know will be far too small or far too big for me. </p>
<p>I would not advise a student who wants to study Asian religions to apply to Cooper Union, even if the student has stellar grades and Cooper Union is free. Bad fit (and the student would not get in anyway).</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>What I talked about are only some of the factors that go into fit. I also mentioned party schools or sports-dominated schools, neither of which would have suited my Ss; schools that do not have desired ECs or academic programs. I also think that financial fit is crucial. There is no point attending a school that is chock full of EC opportunities if a student cannot avail himself of herself of them because the student needs to work as many hours as s/he can.</p>
<p>There are certainly some students and parents who exaggerate the importance of fit and they can be found in both the pro and anti-fit camp. *Fit does not mean perfect fit. It means reasonable fit. * If I wanted absolutely perfect, I'd get all my clothes and shoes custom-made, using the very finest materials available. I can't afford to do so, so I opt for reasonable fit. Unlike clothes, however, colleges cannot be tailored to individual students' requirements. And even an ideal college will not prevent a student from somehow getting an incompatible roommate. Even Eden had a snake in it. (Bold by TD)</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>But one can also disregard fit at one's peril. S's friend (mentioned on another thread) rather conservative, decided that Hampshire college was great in her major (and it is). But she hated other classes and especially the social scene. She stuck it out until her junior year when she transferred to Amherst. Amherst is not exactly a hotbed of conservatism, but it's less "in your face" liberal than Hampshire, again especially when it comes to the social scene.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Great posts, all of them. Yeah, a conservative student going to Hampshire is a horrible fit, regardless of department.</p>
<p>Blossom wrote:
[quote]
We never treated college like summer camp. We got lucky that our kids "found themselves" at college, but their social lives were not our primary concern. "Fit " isn't just about friendships- it's about a 70 year old emeritus professor who hands you an article he's written and asks what you think; it's about having the grad students in the lab you're working in teach you stuff the professor thought you knew when you got hired but you don't know but they like you so they don't want to rat you out; fit is about a professor emailing you a fellowship application with the note, " you'd be a shoe-in for this and I hope you've applied already" when you've never even HEARD of the fellowship, and yes, it looks very cool.
[/quote]
Yes, good examples. And I haven’t seen Blossom’s social & intellectual aspects of fit but I suspect I’d agree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think whether "fit" matters depends on the kid---there's no one-size-fits-all here, one way or the other. I imagine it's true that for a lot of kids it's just not an issue---they'll adapt to pretty much any environment, find friends, get their work done (or not). But for other kids it matters a lot. As a parent you've got to know your kid. As a kid, you've got to know yourself.</p>
<p>I've visited quite a few colleges of varying kinds with my D. I have no doubt she's the kind for whom "fit" matters. Some schools leave her cold, for reasons she's usually able to articulate with admirable clarity--and in articulating them, it sometimes reveals things about her that neither of us saw so clearly before, and that helps refine the search. Some schools would be just fine. Some just really turn her on because she sees opportunities there that may not be available at other schools. In the end her list of schools will be her list, a reflection of her personality, interests, strengths, and character. It's been a learning process for both of us, and a good one.
[/quote]
Seeing the student turn on to a college for good reasons is a wonderful feeling. A small thing but there was a sharp disparity between the orchestra directors of the Ivy that was D’s #1 on paper and the LAC she wound up attending. She tried to set up a meeting with both. The Ivy director e-mailed back, “Get admitted, come to the audition, then we can talk.” The second one was very gracious in setting up an appointment for the day we were going to visit. When he found that we weren’t leaving for New Haven until the following morning, he told D, “Look, we’re having a rehearsal tonight, why don’t you come at about 8:30pm and you can sit with your section while we rehearse.” The fact that we were there at the day there was a rehearsal was just dumb luck. But the attitudes of the two orchestra directors pretty accurately reflected the attitudes of the institutions as a whole...the school where she attended was all about, “How can we make this work for you?” I better stop now or Mini will burst in with the story of his daughter’s hand-tailored degree in opera composition.</p>
<p>Moving right along....</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nothing wrong with WVU. I know a professor who teaches Chinese there. Lots of students from my son's high school get free rides and go there.</p>
<p>Same kid may have received a full ride. Perhaps he's even a sports fan...egads.</p>
<p>Same kid gets paired with the best science professors to do research...starting in his freshman year.</p>
<p>Same kid graduates in 3 years and has tons of money to spend on his dream...med school.</p>
<p>Did anyone ever say Harvard = WVU? No - but some are arguing that top students can have an excellent experience at WVU. It may even be a fit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Missing the point. The parents comparing the course catalogs and concluding that the two schools are equivalent and therefore choosing the closer and less expensive school is nothing but idiocy and ignorance. </p>
<p>Taking a free-ride has nothing to do with fit, though this did not factor in the decision posited. Cost is element of choice, a trade-off, not element of fit, which is about optimizing the student’s experience. You may not be able to afford School X, the best fit, but you can afford School Y, the next best fit.</p>
<p>Sure, there may be a great Chinese prof at WVU...there can be great profs everywhere, but I’d hate to think of the overall difference in faculty, allowing for who you’ll actually get a chance to work with and learn from at Harvard vs. WVU. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Misplaced faux egalitarianism - gag.
[/quote]
Yes, the misplace faux egalitarianism makes me gag too. </p>
<p>
[quote]
agree - but perhaps there's a way that parents can coach kids to TRY to be a bit more open minded. After all, in many cases, the parents are funding the education, and a big mistake can mean a big expense. So if student says, "Yuk, I hate rural schools with cows" - parent says, "OK, but let's check one out just to make sure you're impression is accurate." Or maybe take them to a football game to see if it's really as awful as they think it is.
It's a bit strange...YES, they ARE adults....but many are still fully supported by their parents. I didn't feel like an adult until I was on my own.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don’t recall anyone saying that “fit” or ultimate selection has anything to do with the student flying completely solo in the matter. My D had a couple of criteria that I disagreed with but they did not limit her choices severely, so I did not contest them. On the other hand, she grew in the process. On paper, she preferred a large school, preferably a research university, in a big city. After visiting a number of schools during grades 9-12 and attending several local open houses & prospect parties, her own sense of what she wanted evolved. She wound up picking an LAC in largish small town and hadn’t even applied to the school that had been her #1 on paper. </p>
<p>As to rural schools or those centered around big-time sports programs, for students like my D it would have been kicking and screaming to get her to attend such a school and you know what? She’s right, she knows herself. Just because it doesn’t matter for some students or some students change their minds doesn’t mean that it’s not valid to be carved in stone for others. And vice versa. Fwiw, we did go to one fairly rural school not far from where she wound up going and she didn’t even want me to park the car but we insisted. </p>
<p>And fwiw, my D wanted very much to go to school in a different part of the country, either New England, the Middle Atlantic, or the urban Midwest, in that order. In the summer after her 8th grade, she gave a little set-piece speech that went something like, “I want to go to school in a different part of the country, some place with a different history, a different culture, different traditions. I don’t want it to be like medieval times when you grow up, get married, have children, and die in the same small village.” I looked around Los Angeles County with new eyes, having never realized that it was Anatevka. But I understood her point. As one who believes that half one’s education happens outside the classroom, I’m happy to say that she got what she sought from <em>that</em> part of the experience. Her observations about New England tribalism, for instance, are hysterical. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, I think it boils down to most kids (not all) not really being ready to evaluate fit.
My friends D chose an urban campus- even applied ED. Thought she loved it. Now, after attending, knows that she HATES it. She says it's noisy and dirty and she wishes there was a central place to gather. I know lots of these kinds of stories.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And who says that all evaluations of fit are equally valid? Equally successful? Neither of which negates the premise of fit. </p>
<p>Beyond that, I’ve heard lots of people use really bone-headed criteria...garbage in, garbage out. Parents can be just as bad as students. Sometimes worse. Among the worst are those who want their student to either re-live their own college experience or to have a set of experiences they now wish they had...neither calibrates to the needs of the student at hand.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My nephew is openly gay and grew up in lower east Manhattan. He Jewish, LOVES the city and has become very well known in the area as a gay activist. He's received a full-ride offer from Baylor, but declined after visiting the school last August. Asked why he replied: "It's ...."
[/quote]
Good prima facie example of bad fit. Though some probably think he should try it for a semester if it’s cheaper.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are plenty of people for whom "fit" is not a priority in choosing a college, and calmom seems to be one. The focus on fit is a relatively recent development and strikes me as both very American and a product of marketing. That is not to say that different campuses don't have different cultures, or that kids won't naturally prefer one school over another. But to answer the OP's question, while I don't think fit should be ignored, I do believe it is over-emphasized.</p>
<p>I know plenty of people, including my husband, who never set foot in America until the day they arrived at their undergraduate campus. The idea of fit never occurred to them, and I'm not sure they were any more or less happy at their schools than kids today who give a lot of thought to fit. When we met with our daughter's high school counselor to discuss colleges, my husband was surprised that she brought up issues which were, to him, completely irrelevant -- size, location, presence or absence of Greeks, etc. He simply believes you should go to the best school (that you get into and can afford) for the subject you want to study.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fit is perhaps uniquely American because of the individualism experienced and expressed in the American educational system in contrast to, say, the French, the German, the Japanese, or the Chinese.</p>
<p>How do you determine “best”? Looking at “best” purely in terms of reputation or selectivity or test scores...all of which have some validity but do not define the universe...has several implications. Including the resulting degree as almost the sole reward and a view of the college process as education being something where trained technicians, the professors, pour the best available product into the students’ skulls.
I think the reality is a lot more complex.</p>
<p>Columbia_Student opined:<br>
[quote]
I do agree with Calmom that theDad's comment about Smith vs UCI was elistist.
[/quote]
Saving Calmom’s barrage of adversarial briefs///// posts for last because there are just so many of them, but.... There is a school of thought in this country called “Good Enough.” It’s a school of thought that presents of veneer of misplaced egalitarianism and the refuge of its adherents when pressed is “Elitism!” </p>
<p>Phooey. </p>
<p>Not surprising that it comes up in discussing college because the “elitism” cries and “Good Enough!” come up for everything from after-school GATE programs to accelerated classes to AP classes. </p>
<p>No one questions that most athletes develop the most when challenged by strong teammates and playing against strong competition. But God forbid, to the school of Good Enough, that the principle carry over to academics and intellectual pursuits. Some students may get off on being the queen bee at their school. Others are simply may not give a darn one way or the other. But, as incredible as it might seem to the School of Good Enough, some students sparkle when constantly pushed by their peers and take joy in a never-ending series of dialogues that spills out of the classrooms and labs and into the dining halls and housing. There is a difference between being part of a body of highly charged students who are exhilarated at a contest and evolution of ideas and being part of a body where most are just checking off requirements to get a piece of paper. </p>
<p>Can a student find some like-minded peers everywhere? Umm, maybe, though I have reservations about Southwest Central State Agriculture and Basketweaving. But mass and numbers matter and, other criteria aside, there’s a reason that many students are magnetically pulled to the HYPSM and other so-called top universities and the top LAC’s. Is the intellectual quality of the student body an absolute? No. Is it real and worth considering? Yes. </p>
<p>The mirror image of the Good Enough are the prestige whores who care about nothing but the brand name on the label. Just as misguided, just as annoying.</p>
<p>Now that I think of it, our military should probably disband the Special Forces on the same principle...Good Enough...we don’t need no steenkin’ elitism.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everything you just said supports my "fit is determined in hindsight" statement.
[/quote]
Sorry, D’s was in foresight. Though I confess that I kept waiting for a shoe to drop (it never did) and that things worked out in optimizing her experiences even better than I would have guessed, mainly due to underestimating the degree of some things that played to her development.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But can you explain something to me? My daughter's college has a system where the students are assigned one advisor when they start college, and then after they declare their major they choose a different advisor for themselves. My daughter really had a great relationship with her first advisor, who was the head of the department, extremely accomplished, but was willing to spend a lot of time with my daughter-- they got along very well. But she doesn't like her 2nd advisor -- she just doesn't see eye-to-eye with him and they clash a lot. Here's my question: is her school advising system a good "fit"?
[/quote]
Strength of advising system is definitely item on the “fit” check-off list. D had so many advisors, formal and informal, it wasn’t funny. And she’s flying back up to talk with several of them about grad school options before Spring break...you don’t leave just because you graduate (which is done in four years, come hell or high water...the advisors are on you about that). Advising is a category where D’s school gets an “Exceeded Expectations.” </p>
<p>
[quote]
Times are looking tough in terms of the job market for college grads. I have no regrets about the choices either of my kids have made -- but if I had it all to do over again, knowing what I know now, I don't think the private education is worth the cost differential.
[/quote]
Not choosing an private education on the basis of cost—and for us the premium was about 20 percent over UC—has <em>nothing</em> to do with fit. For all of us there are things we can’t afford. A good fit may be one of them and one does what one has to do and fwiw I’m <em>really</em> grateful that my D got through college before the real estate market headed south. But that one can’t afford fit doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or that it’s not valid. Financial anxiety is a valid component of choice but that’s a different matter as it doesn’t address the student’s experience per se.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
But the notion that a private school's or LAC's fit is illusory reeks of sour grapes and a misplaced sense of egalitarianism.</p>
<p>There is a difference between exception and rule, possible and commonplace, good and spectacular. end quote</p>
<p>You aren't talking "fit". You are expressing your smug sense of superiority based on your perceptions prestige of your daughter's school. I made it clear in my previous post that I wasn't interested in getting into a debate over which school's program was "better" -- just pointing out that it was ignorant to claim that the public schools didn't offer various programs -- but you respond with put-downs and insults. All that demonstrates that aren't thinking about "fit" at all -- you just want to play the "my kid'ss college is better than your kid's" game.</p>
<p>Given that, according to you, your daughter didn't want to apply to UC Irvine as a safety because of disdain for other students applying there (D considered having UC Irvine as her safety. Dropped it because the students from her high school applying there were the relative plodders (post 130) -- it seems clear that your college search was driven by a sense of entitlement and elitism. (Certainly not by critical thinking or analysis, given the tortured logic of that rationale)</p>
<p>So I will amend my comments to add this observation:
"Fit" is often used as euphemism to mean something else entirely.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As you wrote elsewhere:
[quote]
as I said, I really don't understand the whole "fit" thing.
[/quote]
I’ll stipulate to that. See my previous response about the School of Good Enough. My D’s college search was not driven by “a sense of entitlement and elitism” or any other such hogwash and I’ll thank you to refrain from suggesting it in the future.</p>
<p>If anyone thinks that there aren’t differences between intellectual and academic environments, then some are right: if it doesn’t matter, simply pick the cheapest and take the piece of paper on the way out. But the premise is not true and most people know it and acknowledge it without getting defensive about their own choices (my choice should be good enough for you & yours) or pretending that differences don’t exist.</p>
<p>Maybe your S or D doesn’t want, need, or require a more highly-charged environment. Fine. But there’s nothing wrong with someone who does.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
What percentage of students spend significant time off campus for a study abroad and semester-long internships? 2/3 of my D's junior class was "away. end quote</p>
<p>What does the percentage matter? The study abroad programs are available for anyone who wants them. Why would a parent or student looking at a college worry about what percentage of students take advantage of a particular program, other than making sure that they wouldn't be crowded out of something they didn't want? (And that's just a matter of asking some questions -- there doesn't seem to be any indication that these programs are particularly difficult to arrange for CSU students who want them.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The percentages matter because of the richness of inputs a student receives before choosing a program, the amount of experience of others that he or she can tap in making a choice and plans, and the wealth of experiences shared in the classroom upon return. There’s a difference between sitting in a dining hall and saying “I’m thinking of doing X” and immediately getting seven informed opinions and asking the same thing at another school where not one student in a thousand has done something similar.</p>
<p>Others notes: D’s school does not “cheat” on abroad or internship programs. Most internships are both Summer and Fall. Moreover, the college pays $2,000 for every student toward an internship if it isn’t paid; economic circumstances aren’t a barrier to a student being able to accept one. Abroad programs are either by the semester, usually mixing and matching, or full a full year. None of this eight-week or six-week crap.</p>
<p>Mathmom, the students don’t go abroad because they don’t want to stick around, they go because of the outstanding opportunities. </p>
<p>Calmom, Smith has two DC programs, with separate in-city directors and separate visiting professors. The one government students is the Picker Program, not to be confused with the Picker Engineering Program. I don’t recall the name of the program for American Studies centered on the Smithsonian. And Smith students receive no academic credits for their internships. Iirc, the Picker program includes working a 40-hour internship plus taking a seminar class and a major research project...D wrote an 80-page paper for hers.</p>
<p>Yes, D continued to dance ballet in college, including participating in other students’ thesis choreography projects as well as taking class. What’s it to you? Why do you care?</p>
<p>
[quote]
as I said, I really don't understand the whole "fit" thing.
[/quote]
Again, I’ll stipulate to that. I get it that you don't get it. But that being so, I’m perplexed why you expend so many phosphors denying it.</p>
<p>A couple of other notes. A private school isn't necessarily more expensive once you figure in financial aid. I know that D of a single mom who attended Smith with a lower COA than it would have been at a Cal State. </p>
<p>Secondly, I know students who found fit at a wide range of institutions, including one at Cal State Sonoma. A public college is not a priori a bad fit; but neither is it a priori that a private college is putting on airs and isn't worth it.</p>
<p>I've done a little bit of ad hoc college counseling and my interests are at the two extremes: high achieving students having to look at alternatives to HYPSM and first-generation-to-college. What I suspect will be my last major "project" is one of the latter, a Latina who will be in 8th grade next year, the daughter of a single mom.<br>
She thinks she wants to go to Princeton though she knows nothing about it...I'm just happy that at this point, in 7th grade, she has horizons further than five miles away from home.</p>
<p>Why first-generation-to-college? Because it's as if they're running marathons with weights strapped to their ankles. Their families don't have the experience and cultural capital to understand so many of the not-even-so-fine points that upper middle-class students take for granted, e.g., the importance of the standardized tests, the difference in curricula, ad infinitum.</p>
<p>Finally, I have never said that "my school is better than yours," which would be truly offensive and obnoxious. There are lots of students who would be truly miserable at my D's school and vice versa considering she at theirs. </p>
<p>What I will maintain and sustain is that the fit for my D at her school was outstanding, was proved by the record, and was largely anticipated in advance, not in hindsight, by intelligent criteria and sensible gathering of data, both objective and subjective.</p>
<p>
Wow - I think this really illustrates the wisdom of Mombot's comment. I don't think you can begin to appreciate the diversity of the student bodies at California public colleges, where there are so many students who come from immigrant backgrounds, and the wealth of experiences they bring to the classroom from the get-go. Mombot was talking about sports, not study abroad -- but the point is that it seems that people labor under a set of stereotypes that can be confining.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Calmom, Smith has two DC programs, with separate in-city directors and separate visiting professors. The one government students is the Picker Program ... Smith students receive no academic credits for their internships
[/quote]
From what I can see, the Picker program doesn't seem to be built around Congressional internships -- as opposed to placement with other Washington agencies. The Panetta Congressional internship program places its students directly with Congress members - including Nancy Pelosi's office and offices of other Congress members in leadership positions. The students meet with top government officials - plus in past years it has entailed working directly with Leon Panetta (I assume with his new responsibilities running the CIA someone else with strong credentials will be hired to take his place -- though I'll bet that all future Panetta program intern will have "visit with CIA director" on their Washington agenda). </p>
<p>In any case -- my only point was that it was particularly strong program, and one that is essentially open only to CSU students -- in response to the implication that CSU students didn't have access to good programs. </p>
<p>I'm sorry the Smith programs don't provide academic credit. The Panetta program provides 20 units of academic credit, which is actually more than a semester's worth. I'd think a program that did not offer academic credits would be harder for a student to manage. </p>
<p>I know my daughter would not be studying abroad this spring if she could not get credit for her work. In fact, it was a major stress point as she was making her plans and waiting for the course syllabus to arrive -- she was very much relieved when she got formal course approval for two poli sci classes at her Russian college that will count toward her major.</p>
<p>I do know of many students who found out after enrolling in college that despite the emphasis on study abroad in promotional materials, that their schools actually made the prospect very daunting to fit in study abroad with their other major or academic requirements. </p>
<p>Those are the type of issues that tend not to be anticipated in advance, because the prospies don't think or know to look that closely into the major requirements vs. the specific issues involved in obtaining and applying credit for study abroad. For example, it turns out that my daughter's college will only let students get credit for study abroad program in countries with languages that they have already studied extensively; I think my daughter would have liked to expand her experiences by studying in Paris or Prague, but her choices were limited to Russia or an English-speaking country because of that rule. </p>
<p>
[quote]
the college pays $2,000 for every student toward an internship if it isnt paid; economic circumstances arent a barrier to a student being able to accept one
[/quote]
Is that a one-time thing or repeat thing? My d. got $3,000 from her college for the internship she took after freshman year, but she says its a one-time thing and she could not apply for an internship grant for the following year. A college grant of $2K is nice, but it won't overcome all economic barriers. I know that my d's living and travel expenses for her internships would not have been covered by that amount - even the $3K was cutting it close - so its a mistake to assume that such payments are enough to address academic barriers, especially for students whose parents are not able to subsidize their living expenses for the summer.</p>
<p>
I asked because my daughter also considered the availability of dance on campus because she wanted to continue with choreography, but her experience was her college dance program was simply not in the same league she was used to coming out of an arts high school. </p>
<p>She took a couple of classes to fulfill her PE requirements, but other than that, the "dance open to nonmajors" thing was kind of a dud. It wasn't really a surprise -- I've known all along that the strongest dance programs are at public U's and far less selective private colleges. For us, the dance thing was more of a make-weight for admissions -- I even once posted on CC (not entirely seriously) during the college search that I was looking for a LAC with a crappy dance program so that my daughter's dance background could be used as a "hook". </p>
<p>I do know from those days that colleges that did not offer formal dance programs usually had dance activities offered through EC's -- that is, I found plenty of colleges that did not offer dance for academic credit that had quite a lot going on if I looked under "student activities". Many urban/suburban schools are located in close proximity to private dance centers or studios that offer a much broader range of instruction than is typical for college dance classes. </p>
<p>I think this is partly the nature of the art -- my daughter's friends who are pursuing dance pretty much live and breath dance and do nothing else, and their teachers expect the same of them. Same is true of the students who play musical instruments and went into BFA programs. They live in a world where 6 -10 hours of daily practice is de rigeur, and that makes them very, very good at what they do. It's hard to be near the same level of proficiency with only a few hours of class time a week, so its not an easy mix from a practical standpoint.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe your S or D doesn’t want, need, or require a more highly-charged environment. Fine. But there’s nothing wrong with someone who does.
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<p>The reverse is also true. There are plenty of smart kids who prefer a less charged environment. And there's nothing wrong with them either. </p>
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Sure, there may be a great Chinese prof at WVU...there can be great profs everywhere, but I’d hate to think of the overall difference in faculty, allowing for who you’ll actually get a chance to work with and learn from at Harvard vs. WVU
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<p>So, I guess it's convenient to think my friend at WVU is swimming in a sea of mediocrity. Talk about stereotypes. Harvard is a fine institution. The students as a whole are much smarter. Perhaps the faculty publish more and have elite credentials. But that, IMHO, does not make them BETTER professors. Don't feel sorry for the smart kids at WVU. They'll do just fine, and with some effort, can get hooked up with terrific professors who will show them the way. My friend raves about the bright students she works with - and feels she can give them more attention than if she was at an Ivy with hundreds of students competing for her attention. And who's to say WVU is not a better fit? Yes, I agree, that very few if any, would choose WVU over Harvard if accepted to both and the money was the same. But keep in mind that some very smart kids KNOW that Harvard is not right for them and don't even apply. Is there something wrong with that? Does the kid who prefers and goes to Harvard automatically earn the right to feel superior?</p>
<p>The reason a student interested in Chinese might prefer Harvard to WVU is not that the lone prof of Chinese at WVU is not as good as the ones at Harvard. It's that there are a whole lot more of them at Harvard. Now, if a student is interested in South or Southeast Asian studies, I might not suggest Harvard as a top choice (nor would I suggest WVU).</p>
<p>Our son will be going to WVU next year. It was the only school he applied to because he absolutely fell in love with everything about it and we believe it will be a great fit for him. Now this child is definitely not Harvard material, but top 25% of his class, and better than 1200 SAT. It is costing him very little to attend (a fraction of in-state publics) and we do consider that a plus. He could have gotten into more selective schools but would unlikely be happier at any of them. Could he get a better education at them? We'll never know. He isn't the erudite type. Just a regular, middle of the road, reasonably smart kid who plans to major in Biometric Systems Engineering (which appears to have a pretty good rep at WVU). Big football was an absolute must for any school he would consider, so that was probably a bigger limiting factor than finances.</p>
<p>How about a student interested in American and Chinese markets? Who loves football?
We talk the importance of fit...yet some seem unable to grasp that a top student might want to attend WVU. It' s not Harvard, but for some students (and that might include some "top" students) it's a better fit. Enough said. </p>
<p>"About 7,500 miles lie between Shanghai and Morgantown.
But to Dr. Victor Chow, professor of finance at West Virginia University, that distance has been shortened by the Center for Chinese Business at West Virginia University.
Chow cofounded the center in 1994 with the hope of connecting the Chinese and American markets.
"There are a lot of barriers between the two markets," he said. "We play a role as an educational channel to let two markets have a better understanding of each other."
Since 1994, the center has brought more than 150 Chinese business leaders from Shanghai and Tianjin to WVU.
"The Shanghai government knew that its future leaders needed to understand how the people in the U.S. think and how they do businesses," said Dr. William Riley, the center's director.
WVU also partnered with the Shanghai University of Finance and Economics, allowing Chow to take about 30 WVU students to China every year".</p>
<p>At the risk of repeating myself.... there are many reasons why public U's are a better fit for many kids. There is no question in my mind that a place like U Michigan or U Illinois offer a better experience for an engineering student who wants a big, bustling campus and a full range of college activities than some of the small, private LAC's with engineering programs... especially if they end up being the 3/2 type programs. The fact that if you live in one of those states, these powerhouse schools are a great financial value as well- that's terrific.</p>
<p>There's also no question in my mind that a kid who wants a degree in physical therapy or plans to be a speech therapist or wants a career in law enforcement is going to get a better academic experience (including internships, advising, grad school mentoring, etc) at a public U that offers one of these programs vs. a private which has very little in the way of vocational support.</p>
<p>So why does that make me an elitist if I also observe that a kid who is interested in Art History and wants a small, New England type campus will more readily find his people at Williams than he will at Southern Connecticut State college? The fact that Williams Alums are considered "the mafia" of the art world- academic appointments, museum curators, specialists at auction houses around the world, journalists who cover the art market and art history, conservationists, etc... can you not concede that a kid who is turned on by art would not, perhaps, find a richer experience at a school which consistently churns out the top people in the art world, vs. a public U which may or may not have some damn fine professors in the field but by and large, don't have the other bells and whistles which create a campus culture which supports this kids interests???</p>
<p>If a kid is interested in a career in the art world and doesn't have the stats to get into Williams, than the entire discussion is moot; kid should find a realistic place to study art. But to declare that it's elitist for a parent to encourage a kid who is interested in Williams to just throw an application in to any college (what's the difference anyway? a degree is a degree) strikes me as self-serving.</p>
<p>It's fantastic that for many of you, your kids found a great fit close to home, or for a reasonable price, or by accident, or even survived a college which was a terrible fit. That's great. But to declare at the outset of a college search that other folk's efforts to try and optimize their kids experience is just mean.</p>
<p>No one disputes that "for some students WVU would be a better fit than Harvard."<br>
The operative word is "SOME."</p>
<p>I won't go into the opportunities Harvard students have for studying in China. However, check out a program that is totally organized by students (with funding they raise themselves). It's only a small part of what's available.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hpair.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.hpair.org/</a></p>
<p>It does not mean that students cannot learn about China and business at other schools. But Tibetan? Manchu? Not many offer those languages.</p>