<p>Well VMI is a little cheaper than Vassar. But then there are those uniforms to buy. On the other hand Vassar kinda requires preppy clothes, and they're expensive. Of course at VMI I think cadets get paid something for their summers. But that means they can't work summers to make money like Vassar students can. It's all so confusing.</p>
<p>The OP posed the question of "fit" in terms of choice between " a full-ride (or nearly) at Michigan and the substantially more costly Yale and Stanford" and that is the context of this discussion.</p>
<p>[mental image: Wavy Gravy attending BYU, on free ride of course.
"Mom, when they say "mission" , turns out that's not the same as "trip" ! !"
" Math is math, stop whining, shut up and do your work". ]</p>
<p>I don't think the anti-"fit-is-everything" camp is saying schools are interchangeable.</p>
<p>But neither do I see anyone saying that "fit is everything."</p>
<p>The OP also said that finances were another story. He/she asked why the three schools weren't more or less the same in terms of fit, finances aside.</p>
<p>With all due respect, I think we could have quite the drinking game revolving around all the times someone has said somewhere on these boards, "It's all about the fit."</p>
<p>^ OK, I'll start.</p>
<p>My nephew is openly gay and grew up in lower east Manhattan. He Jewish, LOVES the city and has become very well known in the area as a gay activist. He's received a full-ride offer from Baylor, but declined after visiting the school last August. Asked why he replied: "It's ...."</p>
<p>Bear with me and I'll tell you D's story so far. Definitely in the trenches of this here -- we just finished "shopping" last year and we're halfway through freshman year.</p>
<p>I was firmly convinced a LAC was the best fit for this child. I thought (and still do) that the smaller environment and personal attention would have helped her to thrive and shine. I took her to see lots of wonderful LACs and while she was receptive at first, she did a 180 and decided she wanted big schools. Now does that mean I misinterpreted what would fit her or was she deciding without really knowing what a LAC would be like?</p>
<p>She ended up picking a school based on a program. There are so many warnings here on CC about not doing that -- because kids change their minds so often. I thought, "Well, she's actually worked in the field, I think she has enough information to make this decision and hopefully won't change her mind" -- because truly she may not have picked this particular school if it weren't for the program. Well, guess what -- of course, it came up. Rumblings began around November. "I just don't know about this major," etc. Over Christmas, she really agonized. I gently asked if it was because chemistry had been a bit of a struggle. She ended up deciding to give it another semester, see what this semester's classes were like, and agreed to chem tutoring.</p>
<p>Flash forward -- she loves everything now. Chem tutor is awesome, classes are great, teachers are wonderful. Is she in the right place? Who the heck knows? It's all evolving. But the amazing growth I have seen in her this year has come not just from the teaching and the nurturing she is getting but also from her struggles and how she has gone about handling them and solving them. Now does this mean I think people should pick poorly fitting schools so that their kids can "struggle and grow"? Of course not. And do I still think a LAC would have been a better fit? Maybe, but how the heck will I ever know SINCE SHE DIDN'T TRY THAT?</p>
<p>When all is said and done, we will hopefully look back (the hindsight thing) and say this school was just right for her. She has no illusions about dream schools and right fits -- she sees all her ups and downs and those of all her friends who are at a large variety of schools. Did we "shop" looking for fit? Of course! But unlike shoes (to torture that metaphor a little more) -- well, we don't do much to make our shoes fit better (unless we've decided to pick up some cobbling skills in these hard economic times). If we realize the shoes don't fit -- we return them. But education isn't just something you shop for, it's something you DO, growing and changing as you go along. We all want to grow and change on a tropical island rather than in the desert, but life isn't that neat and I don't see how we can accurately predict all these variables to the point where we can say that our first priority is finding the "best fit" for our child.</p>
<p>dbwes:</p>
<p>With all due respect, your D would have grumbled about chemistry at ANY school. And probably would have ended loving it at ANY school. It's not about school fit. A different issue altogether.</p>
<p>Can you explain why? Chemistry would have been a different experience in a much smaller class at a smaller school.</p>
<p>You know, I'm beginning to believe that this "fit" concept exists primarily for folks like those who hang out on CC. And I wonder sometimes how much time and energy is spent on something that can be SO hard to evaluate.
In our case, we looked at over 15 schools - visited them all. My s was an excellent well- rounded student, but pretty flexible (actually, maybe a bit unfocused) about what he wanted. Like dbews, WE thought a small LAC might be a good place for him. He warmed up to a few on visits and applied- but by the time the accepts rolled in, he wanted NOTHING to do with them. He thought he would be bored and wanted a bigger environment with more choices and more "room." Well, his "big school" accepts were limited but he found one he liked...this state flagship honors college. And he's good with it.<br>
And people around here would say, wow, he's going there after ALL that?<br>
I really think fit can be important in certain cases. But is it over emphasized? I say yes, especially at such at young age, when kids are changing their minds and growing. Sometimes I think our family would have been better placed in one of those midwest states where everyone sends their kids to the flagship. Much less angst. And second guessing. And pressure to find a "good fit". Sounds good to me...</p>
<p>To clarify --
The kind of "fit" I am questioning is the kind theDad and others have proposed that is about particular educational experiences. I am not talking about a liberal city kid at a football school in the South, etc. which is about social fit and which the kids seem to be able to intuit pretty quickly.</p>
<p>dbwes:</p>
<p>Of course, being in a small class is a very different experience than being with hundreds of other students; however, labs and sections are small, in fact, often smaller than high school classes (for example, Harvard caps sections at 18; S's high school had a class cap of 30). But very often, a student's unhappiness is with the major itself rather than the context in which the major is pursued.</p>
<p>I have not discussed educational opportunities because they vary hugely from school to school, and this does not depend on perceived "excellence" or school ranking. Less well-known schools often have great programs. S studied abroad through a program run by Butler University.</p>
<p>I don't think the issue is as simply as choice of major. Years ago I followed a similar path as dbwes's daughter. (without the angst, I'm not really an ansgty, person), attending a particular large state U. campus because I was pre-vet, leaning toward environmental sciences. The freshman chem experience in combination with a western philosophy class my roommate insisted I sign up for was enough to convince me that I didn't really want to pursue sciences after all. Turned out that philosophy was fascinating, chem a bore (at least in my eyes). I took a different path that led toward law school. </p>
<p>Years later I saw my son have a very different experience in a chem class at his LAC -- where I think there were about 10 students in the class. (I had about 400 in min). Due to scheduling conflicts, his prof extended lab hours for him, and so he arrived late and stayed late in the lab, meaning that most of the time he was by himself in the lab with the prof and TA. (2:1 faculty/student ratio). All I remember from my labs was a fairly big group (20? 30?) and a TA who spoke almost no English. My son became good friends with his prof, a new, very young addition to the faculty. I remember my chem prof being an old white-haired guy who was hard to follow in lectures -- it soon became clear it was easier to skip the lectures and simply get tutoring & guidance from one of the pre-med students in my dorm who seemed to have an easy time with it. So I can look at my sons experience 30 years down the line and realize that I probably would have enjoyed chemistry a lot better at an LAC then a big university. </p>
<p>But would the LAC also have included the allure of a class in philosophy? Undoubtedly. So a better chemistry class for me might not have made a difference if my destiny was to shift toward humanities and end up in law. Was it "destiny"? Or would a young, engaging chem prof and an old, boring philosophy prof changed the equation? I don't know. I don't care. </p>
<p>I got to college. I explored. I changed. There was a place for me to be when I changed. Dbwes' d. is at college and she is exploring and growing and changing, but maybe she will end ups sticking with the program she started with. Or maybe not. If she tells her mom in a year that she's changed majors, because it turns out that there are some other programs at her college that sound intriguing -- that's just one of those things that happens along the way.</p>
<p>This discussion about fit, which has been rich in different perspectives and personal experiences, has continued for more than 10 days in part because of when we assess fit-- before/at the outset of college or in hindsight. For example, the parent whose child graduated from a CSU campus started at a college which at the time was less than satisfactory. It's possible that his alma mater might not have worked as well for him if he had started there initially. I'm just glad to read that he ended with a successful experience.</p>
<p>I know for me, as a parent of a first year student, fit at the beginning has to do with my child negotiating the transition, the beginning of being a college student, academically & socially. And, when he graduates, I hope that he's matured so that he's off to new horizons & other places to search for fit, be it in a work, academic, or social community. I also hope that his college connection helps him in his search. If his alma mater no longer "fits" because he's out-grown it that's a positive.</p>
<p>Calmon,
I had similar experiences in premed HUGE lectures at state U. My purse was stolen in first lab. I do believe such awful experiences sent me on different path.</p>
<p>I never had a doubt about S's plans. From young age, he was told that if he got accepted into a top tech school, I'd find a way. LACs vs Ivys vs honors at state U were options that never arose. I have no regrets. Among the 3 colleges that were his tops, all would have been "fits". Each one would have set him on a different path, based on profs and experiences. I think there was a type of school that was better for S, but several would have been as good as any other.</p>
<p>I'm sure if S was a immersed in musical theatre, I'd say the same.</p>
<p>The idea of evaluating "fit" based on urban/rural, sports are a big deal/sports are not a big deal is false. How do you know you won't like a rural campus? Lots of kids say they want urban, but what is that based on? And how do you know you won't love Saturday football games once you experience them?</p>
<p>I sneered at sports until I spent a semester on an exchange program at Alabama. I found that I loved the whole ritual of home football weekends. I am so not a sports person now except for college football--I love it. </p>
<p>Had I made a big deal out of not going to a school that had...ew...a big football and greek scene I would have missed out on something really fun.</p>
<p>Paying too much attention to "fit" can mean you cut yourself off from really wonderful experiences. Which is what Calmom is trying to say---don't knock it til you've tried it, and 90% of "fit" is what the student puts into the experience, not what they get out of it.</p>
<p>^ So I'm confused (again). It sounds like advocating choosing a school based on it being a bad "fit" in order to illustrate that a bad "fit" can actually be a good "fit." Or was the school really a "good fit" that had one or two "fit warts" on it that turned out to be beauty spots rather than warts?</p>
<p>^^
We blindfolded our kids and had them randomly check boxes on the common application. When some acceptances arrived, we threw them up in the air and saw which hit the ground first. Of course, this may not work for everyone, some might want to pick the cheapest, or highest ranked schools (or a combination of those two factors, but then it gets overly complicated and some wonderful opportunities may be missed........or not).</p>