<p>snakes on a plane</p>
<p>I would like to add my information to the perusal of this ongoing debate...</p>
<p>As in all questions regarding Nature vs Nurture, it IS difficult to distinguish between what is exactly nature and what is exactly nurture. Note that human culture (including civilization, our races' inventions, and even the theory of "free will/freedom of choice") IS a product of evolution, and hence of nature.
Today, the distinction between the two is mainly done for language purposes or literary tradition. However, one can see Nurture/Culture as a very high stage of evolution, in that it is "represented" by the top strata of the human brain. And as we know, human Culture is much more complex and multifaceted in its rules than the more basic functions of nature are.</p>
<p>Secondly, I would like to add that [many of] our culture[s] has[ /have] entrained us to categorize people with similar patterns of behaviour in sets of stereotypes and personalities. What we often call "innate" and is not immediately physical, even individual personality, are all in the mixture of cultural and environmental conditioning.
Still, many situations in our own human history have shown us that as soon as you abandon superstructural ideas such as "personality" and "identity", you're able to become anything else you - or a person brainwashing you - would want you to be. The only absolute "thing" that exists is Behaviour - whether it follows a pattern or not.</p>
<p>This is to say that our brain and mind are capable of making us behave in all possible ways. Hence, [maybe this and the rest of what I'm going to say does NOT apply to the gay-gene theory discussion!] I don't categorize human beings as BEING hetero- or homosexuals, but as BEHAVING hetero- or homosexually. Either behaviour can develop into a pattern, due to our cultural predisposition.
Recalling the example of the dog mentioned in the beginning of the post, more "primitive" forms of evolution do not immediately create patterns or stereotypes, personalities. I don't know what exactly made that dog behave so, but it's a common situation where he simply acted "out of routine" for whatever reason.</p>
<p>A person "discovering" him/herself to "be homosexual" during a period of adolescence is the same as a person "discovering" him/herself as belonging to a country and should go to war, or belongs to any type of "identity" (national, personality type, career choice, etc.). And as I said above, identity IS something cultural. And since cultural things are dynamic as our mind, it is something changeable.
You would perceive this change as a "suppression" only because of the notion of "suppression" - just as top models get really depressed and feel suppressed when their minds make them think that they're fat, and yet they are not allowed by their parents to refrain from eating...</p>
<p>History, literature and even my personal experience have shown that it is also possible for anyone to change one's sexual orientation at will. Decadent poets did it. And also I did it. When I was in my early teens I liked - for whatever cultural/psychological reason - only to people of my same gender.
Later, I behaved heterosexually for a year, bisexually for two years, and now again heterosexually which I think I will maintain for the rest of my life for reasons of convenience (STDs, other bacteria, hygiene, etc. hmmm and also reproduction :) ).
To believe what I just said you must obviously abandon the belief that attraction, pleasure and "liking something" are not subject to the control of our "free will". If culture, environment, nature and society can indoctrinate/programme/condition/etc. us, we can do it, too, since we're the product of them ;)</p>
<p>I know it's unbelievable to many but I also don't usually tell these things around... anyway, I use my free will (and consequently the free will of all human beings) as an argument for many things in my life.</p>
<p>I know some who used to behave homosexually and changed because they got fed up. I have personally never met any "gay-gene-"gays.
But if they do exist, then I respect them for who they are and the limits of their mind (not limited for "being" homosexuals, but limited for not being able to switch to what they want).</p>
<p>In a [very] imagined parallel evolution of civilization, if the society we lived in consisted predominantly of homosexual relations, and if heterosexual acts were seen as something "inferior" [plus all other things this thread used in order to attempt an explanation of homosexuality], we would obtain the reverse situation; people would be probably campaigning against discrimination of heterosexuals and trying to explain biologically or sociologically why the heck heterosexuals want to create more and more human beings...</p>
<p>That was a nice post, alero. :)</p>
<p>"In a [very] imagined parallel evolution of civilization, if the society we lived in consisted predominantly of homosexual relations, and if heterosexual acts were seen as something "inferior" [plus all other things this thread used in order to attempt an explanation of homosexuality], we would obtain the reverse situation; people would be probably campaigning against discrimination of heterosexuals and trying to explain biologically or sociologically why the heck heterosexuals want to create more and more human beings"</p>
<p>That paragraph was pointless. It's like saying "In a made-up universe people travel only in hot air balloons. So, maybe we should consider traveling only in hot air balloons." Empty rhetoric. The point is that we aren't living in magic fairyland where there are no natural laws to govern the progression of society. </p>
<p>And if a society was made up predominantly of homosexuals in the ratio that our society is made up of heterosexuals then that society would last no time.</p>
<p>Magicmonkey, are homosexuals unfit to properly function in society? What should be done to gay people? Should they be put in mental hospitals?</p>
<p>=</p>
<p>"The APA could not have been swayed by 'new' facts." --Magic Monkey</p>
<p>APA:
"Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue."
<a href="http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html</a></p>
<p>=
"You say 'studies have shown...' WHAT studies? I've never seen any that held water when investigated by a third party."</p>
<p>The same study you cited shows that homosexuality has a genetic link.</p>
<p>"Bailey and Pillard (1991) did a study of twins that determined a 52% concordance of homosexuality in monozygotic twins, 22% for dizygotic twins, and 11% for adoptive brothers of homosexual men (8). These results, like Hamer's, provide further support for the claim that homosexuality is genetically linked. Studies very similar to the Bailey and Pillard study have been done both with female homosexual siblings and siblings of both sexes. The results for both of these studies were only off from Bailey and Pillard</p>
<p>Dear magicmonkey,
Firstly, I did not attempt to justify something, but to create a counter-world perspective. Am I able to justify so many other things that in our value system may be seen as "problems"? Death, murder, violence,...?
In popular culture, people tend to justify many negatively felt issues through "natural laws" although they often ignore that natural laws are also not absolute and change.
And they are also subject to system relativity. It depends on which point of view you look at it from. I am well aware of the scarce reproductivity rate in a predominantly homosexual society :) and that's why I added my last phrase: "trying to explain biologically or sociologically why the heck heterosexuals want to create more and more human beings..."
According to their biologists, as opposed to our society, it would be absolutely "unnatural" to reproduce, and they would try to insert the idea of heterosexuality within their own world system.
This can be done by homosexuals even today by the way... since - as I said in my previous post - culture is highly changeable thanks to our mind.
Again, this was only a utopic/distopic presupposition of what could have really happened in our own society if certain random processes did not unclench the pattern of breeding.
"Natural" is - in the common usage of the word - only something that is held as normal by a majority of people.</p>
<p>There can be "laws", but - just as everyday life can confirm - laws can also be broken. The evolution of homo sapiens culture was by the way one of the greatest natural-lawbreaking events in biological history.</p>
<p>gianscolere1,
Rare and interesting... the fact that I can change my and other peoples' "sexual orientation" at will? I'm not so sure. I'm convinced that ANYONE can change "sexual orientation" the same way she/he changes any other attitude and behaviour.
I would probably get plenty of critic, campaigns etc. since I would go against a highly popular belief of human culture (the belief that "sexual orientation" exists as a condition and not as a behaviour)... I prefer the intellectual folks to discover it on their own :P while I enjoy my short lifetime with the greater supply of single women caused by more and more men "discovering themselves" to "be" homosexual XD</p>
<p>P.S. I know nothing about the gay-gene, but I know that human intelligence, the plasticity of neural configurations, etc. is also determined by the genes... of the human being :)</p>
<p>This thread is the biggest waste of space I've ever seen. Honestly who cares? I certainly don't give a rat's patootie whether homosexuality is genetically determined or not. Some people are straight. Some people are gay. Big honking deal. Get over it and move on.</p>
<p>"I'm convinced that ANYONE can change 'sexual orientation' the same way she/he changes any other attitude and behaviour." -Alero86
"And as I said above, identity IS something cultural. And since cultural things are dynamic as our mind, it is something changeable." -Alero86</p>
<p>So conservative cultures have fewer homosexuals? This count includes those who are closeted but prefer (are attracted to) the same gender. Now, elaborate on your point that "anyone can change their sexual orientation"? How? </p>
<p>"History, literature and even my personal experience have shown that it is also possible for anyone to change one's sexual orientation at will. Decadent poets did it. And also I did it. When I was in my early teens I liked - for whatever cultural/psychological reason - only to people of my same gender." Alero86</p>
<p>I'm curious now. Which examples in history show a change in one's sexual preference (defined as the gender to whom one is attracted)? Your definition of "liked" is ambiguous. Clarify it.</p>
<p>I asked before: how were you able to change your sexual orientation (I'm not talking about sexual behavior, only sexual attraction to a particular gender)? Post step-by-step how you changed yours.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This thread is the biggest waste of space I've ever seen. Honestly who cares? I certainly don't give a rat's patootie whether homosexuality is genetically determined or not. Some people are straight. Some people are gay. Big honking deal. Get over it and move on.
[/quote]
Might be the most concise and useful post on this thread...Sure beats all the multi chapter posts, including mine.</p>
<p>gianscolere1, you broke up some of the continuity of my text, taking some of the words and ideas I used out of context. However, I'll try to redefine them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So conservative cultures have fewer homosexuals? This count includes those who are closeted but prefer (are attracted to) the same gender.
[/quote]
I didn't assume this. I used the word "cultural" - following the continuity of my post - to define everything that mainly belongs to the pole of "Nurture". Hence the equation culture = society, influence, psychology, education, imagination, identity etc.
EVERYTHING that's "all in our mind".</p>
<p>
[quote]
Your definition of "liked" is ambiguous. Clarify it.
[/quote]
In that period, I felt physically attracted to men, including acquaintances and close friends. I also had dreams of sexual intercourse with them and... Must I go into detail...? :P</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm curious now. Which examples in history show a change in one's sexual preference (defined as the gender to whom one is attracted)?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Rimbaud, Verlaine, and many other famous people from the 19th century. There are also other personalities, especially from the circle of literates, artists and philosophers.</p>
<p>[...]</p>
<p>Please read well what I wrote in my first post on this thread.
My presuppositions go strongly against the idea of sexual orientation as being static.
People can be attracted towards a specific gender at different times of their life, but in the same way many of our circumstances assign a fixed identity and personality to an individual person, also the gender-identity is fixed by these circumstances, for whatever reason.
In reality, these things that we believe [and many of us WANT] to be "fixed" and static are modifyable.</p>
<p>"Attraction", too, is often categorized by our societies. I know the word I'll use is extreme, but in a certain sense we have been "brainwashed" by our culture to follow certain stereotypes of likes and dislikes.
But when YOU control yourself and use what some people often call "free will" you are able to like, be attracted and find pleasure in whatever you decide to want (or, as it's commonly expressed with a negative connotation, "what you want to want"). That's the power of our human brain, which has been, in my opinion, widely crushed and tamed by numerous notions that have been fed to us by society.</p>
<p>I will tell you how to change "sexual orientation" step by step - and I will also tell you from which to which exactly, homo, hetero, and bi.
But I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to write it here on a public forum, since it might contain too explicit notions... What do the administrators say? Or shall I use P.M.?</p>
<p>I would think that people who are raised in a conervative environment are less likely to be gay. Most likely their parents are against issues such as gay marriage, thus sending them the message that gay marriage is wrong. How do you think he, and his parents, would feel after he told them that he was gay? They may never speak to him again. Or, they'd speak to him, but you would always feel that you were "different" and will never be fully respected and loved by your parents just because you're gay.</p>
<p>I think there are many "closeted" gays in the conservative community. Although, some may recognize that they're gay at a young age, and try to change it. If they learn to be attracted to women, that's cool. If they don't, that's cool too.</p>
<p>In my opinion, if you are raised in a liberal environment, you are more likely to know and accept that you are gay. Most likely, parents will be okay with gay marriage and think that homosexuals are just like everyone else. This will probably make him feel like being gay is okay, and that he will be loved just as much as when his parents thought he was straight. </p>
<p>I think if gays adopted a child, then this would set an example for their children that being gay is the only "correct" sexual orientation. The parents may not mean to do this, but children always look up to their parents at that age. When they're older, they might say, "Hey. My parents were lesbians, so I think I should be on too!" Or something like this. I'm sure this doesn't happen for all gay couples who adopt, but I'm sure it happens sometimes.</p>
<p>That makes no sense. Homosexuals are just like everyone else, it is OK, and they should be loved just as much if they are gay as if they are straight. Adopted children in a heterosexual environment would think that being heterosexual is the only "correct" orientation. It goes both ways. Do you really think people say "hey my parents are gay so I think I'll be gay too." When you were growing up did you say "hey my parents are straight so I'll be straight too."</p>
<p>
[quote]
When you were growing up did you say "hey my parents are straight so I'll be straight too."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. It's just natural.</p>
<p>When children are little, (I'm talking around five years old) they don't really have a sexual preference. I'm saying that parents have a huge impact on what their child turns out to be, not just sexually.</p>
<p>
[quote]
it is OK, and they should be loved just as much if they are gay as if they are straight.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree, but some parents don't. Some blame themselves, or they just don't want their son or daughter to be gay. It's hard to accept that fact for some. Their dream of having grandchildren is shattered. Their dream of having a traditional wedding is gone. If you can't understand that, then you must be really selfish.</p>
<p>It takes a lot to accept that a child is gay, some more than others. We're talking about parents who have been raised in a strong, opinionated, conservative environment. They've been around it so long that it's nearly impossible to believe that their child is gay.</p>
<p>I would not be selfish for not understanding. The parent would be the selfish one, for wanting what they want over what makes thier child happy. Parents have an impact on who thier children on to a degree. I've yet to meet a homosexual though who says that they are gay because of thier parents.</p>
<p>I doubt anyone would actually say "I'm gay because of my parents." </p>
<p>They don't necessarily not be gay because of the fear that they will shatter their parents dreams, but because of growing up in an environment that degrades homosexuality so much, which may change how he feels about them, thus changing his sexual behavior and preferences.</p>
<p>They may be able to mask how they really feel but one can't change thier sexual orientation despite what some seem to think. I do agree that some hide who they really are for fear of how people will treat them, and it's sad.</p>
<p>And how do you know that one can't change their sexual orientation?</p>
<p>I'm sure that someone can't be like, "OK. I'm [insert orientation here] now!"</p>
<p>It probably takes years. If you're in the right environment, then you may not be as strong as a homosexual or heterosexual. I don't think you can change completely, but enough to lesson your sexual emotions about the same, or opposite sex.</p>
<p>Essentially, I think it's genetic, but environment plays a HUGE role as well.</p>
<p>you're also only 13</p>
<p>
[quote]
They may be able to mask how they really feel but one can't change thier sexual orientation despite what some seem to think. I do agree that some hide who they really are for fear of how people will treat them, and it's sad.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>northshorekaui, it all depends on to which extent you see anything as natural (please refer to my previous posts).
Have you been a "homosexual" to infer what it feels like to be one?
Or have you entered one's mind?
And how do you know "what they really are"?</p>
<p>Many people feel discriminated for many other things: AIDS, and other diseases that they prefer to hide from others; people also want to mask their past from other people for fear of how people will treat them...</p>
<p>This way somebody can easily say "I feel discriminated because I go around dressed as Harry Potter, but society rejects me because they find Harry Potter childish and satanic, unethical and antichristian.
And none of those christian parents want their daughters to go out of me because I may influence them to take the wrong path..."
And he, too,
a) can chose either to feel bad about being a Harry Potter fan and hide it from others;
b) simply like it and don't let this interfere with other people;
c) discuss about it with Christian parents (e.g. by showing the pope's declaration that Harry Potter promotes education and children's growth, and that Christian parents should learn to distinguish between reality fiction and fantasy fiction);
d) get fed up with Harry Potter, and start liking something else;</p>
<p>I actually feel that too much attention is given to "homosexuality".
Maybe that's yet another reason homosexuality is tagged as a static condition and not something temporary...</p>
<p>When people are discriminated for something, some of them decide that this "something" is their own fault, or a trait belonging to them.
Some HarryPotter-fans WILL decide to remain faithful to their hero despite all the girls laughing at them, instead of following the "natural" process of growth and change. And they will stand up for what they believe in. They may actually make it the goal of their life to speak for HarryPotter fan rights!</p>
<p>The same thing happens with people identifying some experiences of their life as a definite indication that they have a specific and static sexual orientation.
I know it is difficult to accept especially when more and more people around you "discover themselves".</p>
<p>Does this all sound like ridiculizing the once serious issue of homosexuality?</p>
<p>No, I'm ridiculizing all forms of stereotyping that have repercussions in real-life... (including racial/immigrant discrimination, health discrimination, "personality-type" discrimination etc. many of which I have personally experienced... which however I finally identify as being just "all in our minds".)</p>
<p>alero86 your previous posts don't need to be looked at. In fact this whole thing is quite simple. I think apple green said it best. Some people are gay some are straight big honking deal. People waste so much time debating this when there are other issues that desserve the attention. I have no idea what you're talking about with the whole harry potter thing but I'm sure norhshore will appreciate what ever it is you're talking about (they seem to be reasonable).</p>