Is it really all about "What a student makes of their college experience" or is it the school?

Parent Cafe
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Now that my daughter has received most of her admissions decisions, my husband and I are still confused about where she should go. She wants to go to a small school (I don’t know why - what does she know?), so she applied to a lot of private liberal arts colleges and got accepted to most of them (with merit aid most are about the cost of state schools). She got full tuition scholarships at two less selective schools so we would only have to pay for room and board, but the 10 year post grad income average is pretty darn low at those schools. She has also been admitted to two good very large state schools (Virginia Tech (honors program) and James Madison Univ). She wants to study psychology and the state schools offer the better programs and also a much wider variety of majors in case she changes her mind. What I fear if she goes to one of the schools she got scholarships to: 1) that she will waste her time there if she doesn’t like it (they are VERY small women’s colleges - but have cross registration privileges at nearby co-ed colleges at no extra cost - one a very selective private college - she’s not gay, so I know she is going to want to meet boys) and 2) more importantly, that her degree from a less selective school will not be given much weight for job prospects or for graduate school (would attending on a full tuition scholarship mean anything to employers or grad schools?). To make the decision worse, is we think she has a very good chance of being admitted to a very selective, very highly ranked women’s college (one of the seven sisters) but the cost will be about three times the amount than the scholarship schools. So my questions are:
Is it worth the cost to send your child to a more prestigious college for a degree like psychology or education if we can afford it - but barely, and with some impacts like having to delay retirement by four years, and,
Would you send your kid to a less selective school, with average and limited academic programs just because of the scholarship or would you nudge them in the direction of the better state schools, even though the kid says they want a small school environment (but how do they know that?).

For what it’s worth, I think she says she wants to go to either one of the scholarship schools just because of the cost - she is a thoughtful girl. And yes, she has visited all of them. But I don’t want the decision to be all about the cost since there is not a huge difference between the scholarship schools and state schools (10-12K) and also one highly ranked private LA school (Centre College - I have reservations about this school because it’s in a very red state and she is a minority).

One point I forgot to mention: she would play a sport at the small liberal arts colleges (including the seven sisters school), but not at the state schools - so that would give her an automatic group of friends. The scholarships are academic though, not athletic so the only plus is the social aspect. Sorry for the book - I apologize.

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Can you afford the seven sister?

What type of learning environment does she feels most comfortable in? Does she like to push herself by being in the middle of the pack or does she do better at the top of the pack for less stress?

My kids are minorities. They were looking for environments where they were no longer going to be the only person of color in the classroom. That aspect of their colleges has worked out really well.

I don’t know Centre College well enough to give a read on the area.

You are asking good questions as you think this through.

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My pups had to follow the money, and the better schools gave better money to us, because of our need.

Schools where a child will have to work for income during the semester to help pay the cost of attendence mean they will have less time to enjoy all the other perks of that college. What good is a world-class gym if there is no time to go work out? What good is all the faculty research assistant positions if the student has to regularly work and cannot meet with them?

OP, for your situation, it sounds like the 10-12K difference between the colleges is just enough to make you and your child think about it. For others, like us, we’d look at it as a 40-48K (the total over 4 years) difference, and there’d be no way we’d justify that higher cost. We told S and D if they needed our help, that they would have to justify any school that was more than $20K over 4 years higher than the lowest offer they got from the schools they applied to. I am sure most students can only think of the bottom line, and go with the cheapest offer.

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We could afford the seven sister if we are given some significant financial aid - not looking for them to meet her other scholarship offers, but we could only pay about three times that cost or about 35K. Like I said I’m wondering - is it worth the additional $80K investment to graduate from a prestigious school, especially considering her career goals - which are pretty low paying jobs? The difference in average 10 year post graduate income between the lower ranked scholarship schools and the higher ranked seven sister is about $20K/year so if that is truly the case, it would be worth it, IMO.

She goes to a pretty rigorous private high school and is just in the top 20% (but supposedly in the top 5% in math) so she’s not expecting to be at the top of the pack at the seven sister, but she thinks she could handle it. She would definitely be at the top of her class at the two less selective schools - she was one of the top 15 applicants at one and was treated like a queen on one of her visits!.

She wants an environment where she can interact with her classmates and professors - which she def wont get at a large state school (VA Tech is very highly ranked in Psychology - up there with very selective colleges, but they graduate 500 psych majors/year!). But then again it’s highly ranked in psychology, LOL!

ALL of the women’s colleges are very diverse, so that’s a plus - I think she likes all three of them for that aspect as her high school is not diverse at all either. Centre College (the highly ranked LA school that nobody has ever heard of) is co-ed and is the best small school in for the cost by far, but like I said, it is in the middle of a red state and she is not conservative - but she visited it twice and everyone was VERY friendly.

So, just too much to consider! I know I’m overthinking this too much - my husband and I both attended the only college we applied to and we have done well, but things are different now or so I hear, and I worry.

What got us into this conundrum, and I WON’T take this approach with our younger daughter who is two years behind - is to think that being an athlete would make any difference cost-wise for Div III schools. I thought that would be a factor, and that’s why she visited and applied to so many schools - she was recruited by them - obviously based on her grades, not her athletic skills. So now we have to make some hard decisions. I sort of wish she wouldn’t have gotten the scholarships - yep, seriously, because without the cost aspect, I think it would be an easier decision - we would just let her pick the best school we could reasonably afford which would be Centre College for the small schools and VA Tech for the large schools.

Thanks for your reply and input!

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Short Answer: If you have to delay retirement by four years, you probably can’t afford it. Lots of people plan on just working longer, get laid off late in their careers before their planned retirement, and then never again find jobs at their previous peak income.

Long Answer: Whether she goes to a coed school vs. an all women’s school, whether she plays a sport, and whether she goes to a small LAC with a typical class size of 15 students or a large public U with a typical class size of 45 students will all result in a very different college experience. You mentioned education. Public school teaching is a flat field, with salary mostly determined by experience level, degrees, and location.

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3puppies,

That’s the thing - we are not getting any need based aid. We make too much money to qualify for aid, but not enough to pay much more than the avg. state school price. So our best schools costwise are where she got the most merit aid based on her academics - which are the lowest ranked schools on her list. She’s a brainiac, but not a genius, so she’s not getting any scholarships from huge but better state schools with lots of competition - only from small single sex colleges (that wipes out a lot of competition right there - from the boys and the girls who want to go to co-ed schools!).

But like I said, if she could make $20/year more after graduating at one of the better schools, then it would be worth it to us, as we are older parents and really won’t be able to support her much after we retire. That’s my major question and concern.

What are your kids majoring in? Will they have higher paying job prospects than a psychologist or a teacher? That’s a whole 'nother complicating factor - if she was majoring in computer science, engineering, or math, I wouldn’t be worried at all - but she is just not interested - she’s a people person - was adopted internationally - loves children, and will probably end up working for some non-profit. I’m making her take a Chinese language minor just to give her an uncommon marketable skill, but aside from that - I worry about her struggling through life trying to pay the bills.

Thanks for your reply and input!

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Roethlisburger, Well, we are sort of looking retirement in the face. I’m already retired (with a small pension), and my husband has been able to retire for four years already. We have a retirement nest egg - which we want to use for our retirement, not college, but we have separate savings aside from our retirement funds - so we can afford to pay for the other schools if he keeps working another four years - and in his line of work - he has seniority and will not lose his job before he decides to retire. So, we can afford it as long as he’s working - but as soon as he’s not, we’re going to be unable to help them anymore. We have two - two years apart, so they can’t dilly-dally around for 6 years like he and I did (when someone could work during the summer and pay for their own college costs) because he is definitely not going to go for that. That’s why I’m so stressed out over which is the right choice. I don’t want her to be stuck at a school she hates that didn’t turn out to be what she was expecting (I have read students’ comments from the two scholarship schools and that happens alot - not everyone can deal with a small single sex school and many transfer out after a year). I transferred schools when I was in college because my small hometown university didn’t offer anything I was interested in and I didn’t meet any people since I lived at home. So I floundered for three years hating it the whole time before I bit the bullet and transferred to a large out of town school that I didn’t know if I was going to be able to afford. But I managed, and loved it - loved living on campus instead of my parents house, loved it despite the fact that some classes had 200! students in them. Luckily, in the classes related to my major there were only 15 or so kids in my classes, and I found good friends in my small dorm. Again, I’m probably way overthinking, but she’s worked hard for four years in a pretty rigid high school and I want her to be happy - and I want us to be happy knowing we gave her the best education and career opportunities possible. Thanks for the input!

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I don’t know if this will be helpful, but one thing I heard about average salary after graduation that seemed to make sense is: The average salary post graduation of a school with more tech majors, or more of other lucrative majors (engineering) is going to be higher because they are graduating folks into those higher paying jobs. It may also be that more of the students stay in the area and the area is a higher paying area. I don’t put too much stock into that salary thing because of this. If someone has more to instruct us on that issue, I’d love to hear it.

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I should add, I feel your pain. Oy vey. Watch for my very similar post coming soon. :slight_smile:

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OP- an undergrad degree in psychology does not mean becoming a psychologist. And even if it does- there are low paying areas of that field (school counseling for example) and higher paying areas (industrial psychology, human resources/employee relations/labor relations).

A psych major with good statistical training can mean launching a career in market research- with a major corporation, one of the huge global MR vendors, a global advertising agency, etc. And an ambitious and hardworking psych major will not need grad school for that. But there are virtually no career paths (besides working as an aide-- i.e. not certified) for a young grad who wants to work with patients without either a Master’s degree (in counseling) or a doctorate.

My point? You don’t know that your D will end up in a low paying career. Part of what will happen in college will be for her to get exposed to all sorts of disciplines she knows nothing about. I know people working in very high paying careers who started as Psych majors, then discovered the field of behavioral economics- and they were set. (ask yourself- why do cookies come packaged in small bags of 100 calories- and cost three times as much as the standard size of cookies- and people willingly pay MORE for fewer cookies? There are people who were psych majors who figured that out!)

I think you should help your d focus on the best fit for her at the price tag you can afford without sacrificing your retirement… and leave the discussion of bigger salaries aside for now. You cannot look at a 17 year old and predict what career they are going to discover.

Good luck… sounds like your D has terrific options.

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regarding this question:

I think the answer is no. That scholarship is based on your Ds performance in HS. Employers/grad schools will be interested in what she has accomplished during college.

However, I think the performance of your D at WHATEVER school she attends, and, perhaps, more importantly, the experience she can get outside of school (internships, research/work experience) are more important than the name of the school on the degree. The small school could help there, as sometimes the better access to faculty (if you daughter is likely to take advantage of it) can lead to such opportunities.

That said, I don’t think all small schools are equal, and if it were my kid, I would try to tease out what’s important. You have a great small school (Centre), where there might be a diversity issue. Are the other small schools really much “lower” academically? Avg admissions stats? 4-year grad rate? FT vs PT faculty? Could the Honors program at VT provide some of what she likes about the smaller schools (more involved advising? small freshman seminar? living arrangement with other Honors students?)

If your daughter truly feels more connection to the smaller schools, I would respect that. You say she has visited the larger schools as well. And as you did…if it didn’t work out, transferring to one of those bigger schools after saving $$ for a year or two, would be fine. Those big schools aren’t offering much in aid now, so it isn’t like she’d be missing out on the chance to take advantage of a big offer. If she’s right, and the small school is a better fit for her, she’ll thrive.

I agree with @jesse’sgirl regarding ‘average salary’. I think there are more important metrics. Centre has a great 4-yr graduation rate (83%). (In the case of VT, you really need to look at the 6-yr, since I suspect a lot of those engineers do co-ops which delay graduation…and their 6-yr is also 83%). Both schools are clearly providing an experience that keeps students there and graduating. I can’t comment on the diversity factor - Centre appears to NOT be too diverse, and that’s really a personal ‘fit’ issue - but I don’t think she would be giving up potential future opportunity by attending a great small school instead of a large state school.

I’ve felt it too - the uncertainty, and wanting it all to be “just right” for our kids. I think you are asking the right questions.
Ultimately, it will be up to your D to make the experience the best it can be for her.
Good luck to you guys!

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Went through this with two boys, one if them also a D3 athlete who got merit $.

Lots to consider and would not tell you what to do, just things to ponder.

Merit $ at most colleges are subject to gpa requirements.
You have to know your child, they have to be hard workers and good test takers to keep those scholarships, at the privates. We were lucky, our two top choic s were among the very few that are less focused on gpa. Basically just have to be there “in good academic standing” which means you cant go on academic probation and expect to keep the scholarship, so no additional grade pressure other than what applies to all students.
This seems the rare exception, and might lead one to pick the less competitive schools, or take the perceived easiest classes/major etc. Find out the requirement and make sure your child takes it seriously, and knows transfer would be plan B.

Psychology (and almost all college majors) do not lead to specific jobs nor salaries.
Schools with high paying avg incomes usually have a few common traits.

  • They are in high cost regions, where local employers must pay above national avgs. Often have a high % of students in those few higher paying prof degrees such as engineering, CS, physical therapy etc. If you are not in one of those professional degree programs, avg salaries mean little.
  • Selectivity of the school may cause more employers to recruit, but then again, grades matter. Being at bottom of a highly compeitive school might not be a better outcome than top student at a less selective school. The top student will get all the opportunities. Reseach with profs, internships are not available to 100% of all students at a given school, not even the most selective.

We went for top selective schools and here are some pros and cons.

S1 at a large ivy, scholarship tied to major he was excellent at.
Made good and very smart friends, but decided he wanted to switch to a major he was less qualified for. Had he been at a less competitive school, he might have achieved it, but could not do so in this environment. He worked harder for lower grades while trying to transfer internally to another college/major at same uni. He had to work very hard and it was not enough, though at a less competitive school he would surely have made it, he came close at his college. He’ll graduate with his original intended major, and lots of electives in the field he preferred. Part of the issue was financial, he was told if he retakes 1-2 classes and gets a better grade, he can still switch, but he would not graduate on time. At 70k/yr (loss of scholarship tied to major), an extra year of college is silly. He will apply for a masters based on his performance in electives. Has been a stressful experience. But that said, as an expensive private school, there were no quotas, he was never shut out of classes or a popular major as often happens at large publics. This was stricly tough competition that made exploration of other fields difficult and expensive.

S2 is D3 athlete. Takes up lots of time even in d3 sports.
d3 got him into a highly competitive school, but now he works until 4am every day due to the competition, and time committments of his sport. He got a nice merit scholarship, that he can’t lose based on gpa, but as a competitive kid he is killing himself as he wants good grades. Overall he is happy with his school. The team and intelligence of classmates makes him happy. Mid size school, profs are more helpful and friendlier than at s1’s much larger ivy. As a freshman, tough to get summer internships, on campus academic jobs like tutoring, unless you have a high gpa. He would have higher grades if he went to his safety large public school, might have been qualified for internships and on campus academic opps like reseach or tutoring.
He did have one subject he excels at, was offered chance to be a TA, tutoring a fresh level class, but his sports schedule prevented it. Overall very challenging for him, but I keep reminding him that he is holding his own, as a student athlete, competing in classroom with some if the brightest kids, and don’t let B and C grades get you down. Parent orientation, they told all parents “even if your kid gets a C they are atill learning, don’t worry”.

Fields like Psych, if she really loves it and is good at it, you need high grades to get into a PHD, and maybe undergrad research would help. Can she do that in a small or highly selective college ? Will she change majors ? Most kids do so. My S1 may have been better off not at his ivy, had he realized what he wanted to study earlier. Still he is making the most if what he can, and I think it will work out in the end.

So to answer your question, YES it is what your kid does with the opportunities they have at whatever college is selected. My niece went to U of MD, and got PHD offer at Yale and another top school where she attended and got her PhD. She was smart but could not afford private school as an undergrad, did not hurt her at all. She figured out how to “stand out” at U of MD.

So fear not, if your kid is a hard worker, makes an effort to do more than the bare min at any school,
any of the choices under consideration can help be a springboard. I do think spending a high $ amt is a risky bet, that your kid is one of the few who will stick with their major, graduate on time, and take advantage of opportunitites that lead to post graduation success. Finding yourself is expensive at almost 70k/yr, it is the rare 18yo who knows what they want and ready to go after it.

Good luck and don’t worry.

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Because she is entering a field where graduate school is a must, why not follow the money now for undergraduate? If she’s a good student, she will do well wherever she goes and achieve a great gpa then move on to grad school.

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My DS did choose the smaller school over the larger research U. He loves it! Knows a lots of people on campus. Is trying all kinds of news things, both academic and social, and feels he definitely found the right place for him. Compare the true costs of each school side by side and let your DD make an informed choice. It will be what she makes of it no matter what is spent.

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For what it’s worth – Centre is highly regarded and in my view is one of those liberal arts colleges which, if it were in the northeast, would have a lot more name recognition. The student body is about 75% white – similar to many LACs though not quite as diverse as some LACs like Grinnell, Amherst etc. I would not worry about give the red state phenomenon (and these days, that would rule out an awful lot of states). Centre emphasizes tolerance, respect etc. and that is the community which will be “home” for the student. If Centre is an affordable option, that is a great one to have.

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I was also going to say not to worry much about the red state thing. Most colleges tend to be vety liberal/accepting. And students will spend most of their time on campus. Centre is a very good school and if she’s comforts there, the red state thing is a nonissue IMO.

Also, the red/blue division is, in many cases an rural/urban one. I live in what’s classified as a very red state in the South. The two largest cities are blue. And my daughter attends a college in this state that’s pretty liberal.

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This.

@roethlisburger makes a good point. I may be facing exactly this situation a few months from now. I work for a government contractor. The specific contract I work on is coming up for re-bid this summer. If another company gets it this time, I’m one of several people who are likely to lose their jobs because there isn’t enough work for us on other contracts. I’ll be 62 this summer. Would I be able to get another full-time job that pays anywhere near what I’m earning now? Probably not. I’m not sure I could find full-time work at all.

And this isn’t the only type of situation that can prompt an earlier-than-expected retirement. Sometimes people end up retiring earlier than planned because of a health problem. A colleague of mine retired recently, about five years earlier than planned, because of a worsening eye condition that was aggravated by spending many hours a day looking at a computer screen – an essential part of his job. And sometimes (though not in my colleague’s case), if a person retires because of a health problem, the spouse may also end up retiring to serve as a caregiver.

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“Is it really all about “What a student makes of their college experience” or is it the school?”

I vote for the former; what your student makes of it. My son went to a moderately selective school as he was given much more financial aid. (His first choice, which he was accepted to and was more selective, gave very little aid - we couldn’t afford to pay $50,000 a year.) The college he matriculated to was a good fit socially. It also cost us less to send him there than to even our flagship state university. His stats and abilities were high for this college, hence the great aid package, and while in college he wrote very well compared to his peers, and became sought out for his writing help, and impressed his teachers. He graduated with honors in May.

He worked two jobs while in college, eventually becoming a manager of a small food place on campus. Also in college, he was very involved with Model UN. He took on an unpaid internship for a few months+ working for the local government, (while working a part time job and going to school) and sought out a lot of responsibility in that position. He later sought out opportunities to write about his new-found interest in analytics, and was hired to live blog from a conference in NYC, which articles were published under his name. He always worked quite hard, and had excellent references. He also went to a few parties, but not as many as his peers. I’ve had a few conversations with parents who wanted their kids to have a “typical college experience” and ensured that their kids did not have to work while in their more prestigious colleges. They wanted them to focus on their studies. Unfortunately, none of those young adults have a position close to their field of choice, but have taken other jobs for the interim. My son has exactly the job that he wanted.

Here is what he found out on the job search: some companies do hire only from a few top tier universities. The company who did eventually hire him is well known in business circles, yet their hiring practice is to look for experienced people who can write well, speak, think creatively, research, and work well with others. They liked him initially because of all of his experiences he had while in college. They really liked that he took on a managerial role with responsibilities. It didn’t matter that it was in food service. They were impressed with his published blogging, and knew that he could work well with others because of Model UN and his internship.

He sought his first post-college job only in the field he was interested in, and it took him 5 (scary) months. He was the youngest hire of the new batch of hires; others had all previously worked for other companies. After he began work his peers asked him if he had honestly padded his resume, because it was fairly full for someone right out of college. He had not. He just sought after and had many experiences.

As a side note, when resumes are submitted now, for the most part it is done electronically. They are scanned and coded according to what the automated device determines the experience of the applicant to be. THEN they are submitted to a human being IF the machine determines that the applicant has the appropriate level of experience, as determined by the company. Keep in mind that I am not an expert on this, but from what my son said, this is approximately what happens with most businesses. My son found out that the scanner determined that he had two post-college year’s relevant work experience. Even though he had just graduated, this enabled his resume to be looked at by a human being. His experiences while in college then caused his resume to be handed around at his future company, netted him a few interviews, and he was hired.

He could have gone to a more prestigious university. He made the most out of his college experiences. He has a very bright future in the field of his choice. He will be able to get a masters in the future, and his company will help to pay for it.

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You probably need to make a few hard decisions up front - sport or no, women’s or coed and then rule out the schools with the wrong choice. Next put a dollar ceiling - any school with cost of attendance (after subtracting merit) over a given $ amount gets off the list. Then see what you have left. Evaluate these based upon fit- size, location, perks of honors, variety of majors available, etc. When you are down to 3-4 - go to these admitted students days and pick after that.

I would never consider the earned income statistics - they don’t take so many things into account - major, work experience in college, etc.

I also firmly believe college is what you make of it - you can succeed if you work hard, take advantage of opportunities, etc. whether you are the big fish in a small pond or visa versa.

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I certainly thought this when my daughter was looking. She now goes to school in a part of the country Trump visited twice: once during the primaries the summer before she enrolled and once during the general election while she was in school. The town is overall safe, but there have been incidents and tensions. In this crazy political environment, it’s necessary to investigate safety carefully. Ask members of minority groups on campus. They may be experiencing things that aren’t reported elsewhere. Make sure your child can find their people.

That being said, a blue state is no guarantee of safety. We’ve seen that in the news as well.