Is it really all about "What a student makes of their college experience" or is it the school?

Parent Cafe
21

It appears to me that this kid is eventually heading to graduate school or professional school of some type. The OP also referenced that she is strong in math – something that she should take advantage of in college and beyond. I also see that the parents can afford to pay full freight, but like normal parents they would prefer not to!

I’m a big fan of small colleges. I don’t think they limit career options in any fundamental way. Some small colleges and universities have outstanding records at placement in graduate programs. And generally speaking there are advantages of having small classes – in the intensity of interaction with faculty, perhaps in more demanding coursework that isn’t just lecture oriented. In some cases, e.g., Bryn Mawr, there is cross-enrollment at other colleges. A niece of mine attended Bryn Mawr and there was a lot of interaction in extra-curricular programs in particular with nearby Haverford.

This kid might benefit from moving into a bigger environment, but there are many ways to get that. For example, it could involve a small school that also has significant program links to other colleges, or that promotes significant summer (perhaps study abroad) programs that broaden the students’ experience and perhaps also enhances foreign language knowledge. For example, my wife, who attended UWisconsin many years ago made some lifelong friends from students who attended small colleges (e.g., Swarthmore) on a summer program in France that was organized by UMich. Alternatively, places like Virginia Tech really have a broad array of majors and opportunities to take specialized or advanced courses in many fields both within and outside of the major.

22

I ran voting statistics for Boyle County (where Danville is) and for the presidential race it was about 2:1 in favor of the Republican choice and for a senate race the ratio was about 7:6. FWIW, it suggests some political diversity within the community where Centre is located.

Honestly, it depends on the kid - will your D thrive where she is planted or does she need/want a bit more nurturing?

Earned income - I would take that with a grain of salt. Some very prestigious LACs have low numbers because many of their graduates go on to med/law/grad school and that delays meaningful earnings. I would look at outcomes like placement in such post-graduate programs.

How small are the “very small” women’s colleges? If total enrollment is 1,000 or less, I’d be leery. What if she develops an interest in a major that can’t be supported fully because the place is too small.

Finally, I opted for the state U with honors program back in the day for reasons of cost. I had a great experience and then was well positioned for generous merit offers from graduate programs at selective schools.

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It’s both. A student definitely has to take advantage of the resources that a college provides them, but different schools will offer different amounts of resources for the student to take advantage of. There is also subjective factors to how much a student will learn. Are they much better off on a bigger or smaller campus? Are they better off where they can be around the top of the class or would it better suit the student to be not the best of the best but amongst many other smart peers that the student can learn from?

There are a lot of factors that will determine how much a student will obtain from their undergraduate years, and the resources provided and how much they set out to pursue those resources are two of the more major ones.

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I am going to be an outlier here. If she gets into the seven sister give it careful consideration. They tend to have very loyal alum in a large variety of occupations. The seven sister colleges have a lot of money which translates to more student research opportunities, well funded career services, high profile speakers, etc. The students will be very smart and the classroom experience will be better.

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As a parent of a college class of 2016 grad, I have now witnessed the outcomes from my daughter’s HS classmates. Two are working at Starbucks - one an IVY league humanities major the other a state school dance major. The one who did very well at what would be considered a second tier LAC (she was valedictorian at this LAC) is at Columbia Law school. The students with the best outcomes are those that have already figured out what they want to do and have worked hard towards that goal - no matter what level college they went to.

I think this is especially important for a Psych major (which I have often read is the most popular college major). Spend her college years figuring out how to use that major - research, become a psychologist, work in marketing, etc. That will have the most impact on her post college career.

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Hi, run the NPC at each of the 7 sisters. You could get aid at some of them without qualifying for a Pell grant. They all have their own formulas, and some of them take into consideration how close you are to retirement in their formula. I think it’s always wise to apply broadly and see what comes back.

When all is said and done, however, your basic state flagship or small not-famous LAC will do fine for landing her a decent job in education or springboarding some kind of psychology career. Don’t overextend.

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There are so many variables (social life, roommate, and dating life come to mind right away), and no one has a crystal ball. So, try not to stress about the decision. I’m not being flip! I just want to emphasize that we can analyze it to death and there will still be many unknown variables, not to mention some kids do 180s and change their minds about what they were so sure about during application season.

Be sure you are really willing & able to pay for all final choices on the table.

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Danville is a small town with a population of 16k. If she goes to Centre, she might spend 98% of her time on campus. Worrying about how a farmer in Boyle County voted seems irrelevant. Kentucky is known for having a lot of split ticket voters(Democrat in state/local elections and Republican in national), so the political situation is more nuanced than those cited statistics.

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@LeastComplicated, I’m a Centre parent and can give you my perspective. For what it’s worth, my S transferred in mid-Freshman year from a huge top 20-30 national university. He has never looked back. He is a senior now, and the education and opportunities he has gotten have been wonderful. Here’s what I can say about the red-state issue, in Kentucky (where we live), it is largely about coal. FWIW, Boyle County has traditionally been a Democratic county. That said, I think the political leanings of the state have very little to do with college life at Centre. All things are relative, right? In KY, Centre is considered very liberal. I know very smart kids from conservative families who didn’t even apply for this reason. But to others, it might be considered too conservative because the school, for the most part, allows many positions to be heard. My S is a conservative, but he has never been stifled by his liberal professors. But, he is also an excellent student who can articulate his positions very well and is tolerant of differing opinions. I will not even pretend to talk to the issue of diversity except to say that I know that the school, like most others I suspect, is trying to address the issue. I would encourage your D to look on the website for student clubs and organizations. There’s a PDF that lists contact links for each organization. She might get a much more accurate view of the school’s attitude toward diversity by communicating with students who are involved in leadership positions of organizations she might be interested in joining.

As for income potential, keep in mind that many students choose to stay regional post-grad, where incomes are not as high, nor is cost of living. As for Centre’s reputation, it is excellent among graduate schools. The acceptance rate tells little about the quality of the school. If you look at the stats, it’s clear that potential students self-select. In the northeast, an equivalent school would have about a 35% acceptance rate. Be aware, though, grade deflation is real and well known. To keep the high gpa he transferred in with, my S has had to work his behind off. This is also one of the reasons, however, that it is respected among grad schools.

Centre has been a Godsend for my S. The person we dropped off there 3 years ago bears little resemblance to the man that will be leaving soon (much to his sorrow). Good luck with your family’s decision. We are going through it now with our D, as well.

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@ Least complicated, If you decided to go the large university route, have you considered looking into the Honors College of that particular college ? Your daughter would have the feeling of a small college within the confines of a larger university. The other bonus of the larger university is less debt. How long would it take for your daughter to repay her student loans ?

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As I mentioned in other posts, just because a state school is large doesn’t mean that the student won’t find small classes or that they will not get to know the professors. So much depends on the school and the effort by the studennt. Same for a small school. A small school does not gaurantee that she will get to know her professors. It will increase the odds and make it easier. I went to a small school and got lost in the crowd. I just didn’t take advantage of the opportunies that I could have.

My daughter goes to our state flagship. She is in a popular major but has had many small classes with great interaction. She did her homework and choise wisely. She has also had very large classes where interaction was limited to using a clicker and through office hours. She is currently doing a psychology internship conducting experiments however she is NOT a physchology major. She has also gotten to know many of her professors.

There is no clear cut answer to your question. A lot depends on your student’s personality and their willings to take advantage of what the school has to offer.

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svca mom, Actually the larger state university will cost more than any of the LAC’s (except for the seven sister) that she was admitted to. And she will have no debt at any college. We have decided that this is just not an option since she has been admitted to several schools that we can afford (especially the two that she got full tuition scholarships to). She has been admitted to the honors college at VA Tech. I will have to do some research on that because I’m still not exactly sure what the benefits of being in the honors college are. Maybe that is a question for another thread!

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Look closely at their honors college information. Different colleges we’ve looked at include some of the following for their honors colleges: first choice of classes (hugely helpful for those required classes which fill fast); fancy honors dorm; small classes; leadership opportunities that other students aren’t offered; it can also require an additional honors fee; additional academic requirements (extra classes, etc.) etc. Every school has its own flavor.

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I’ll be an outlier too.

I don’t know why so many are assuming this student will head to grad school. I’d be interested in her chances of landing a good job straight out of college.

But even if she does decide to go on to get a doctorate in psych, most grad positions are funded, so saving money for grad school is irrelevant. It’s just very different than law, medicine or a MBA, etc.

Getting into a graduate program in psych, especially one of the clinical programs (rather than a PhD) is also VERY different than getting into med, law or business. Frankly, it’s a LOT harder. LOTS of it is based on faculty recommendations. Yep, you take the GRE, but it’s one heck of a lot less important than a LSAT or MCAT score. And your overall GPA is also less important. Having faculty who KNOW lots of people on the faculty of grad programs is important. Now, I’ll candidly admit that some profs at small LACs are remarkably good at networking for their best students. But, in many cases, that’s just not the case. So, check out the cvs of profs in the department–are they on the boards of journals in their fields, have they presented papers at major conferences, have they co-authored papers with faculty at other schools, etc. But again, from the description of this student, I doubt grad school is in the cards.

Personally, it’s my belief–wholly anecdotal and I admit it–that the name on the diploma matters MOST to students in the “soft” sciences and humanities who want to go to work after college. If you major in engineering at a lower level school, employers will want to know if the program is ABET accredited. If it is, you’ll be fine.But if you are majoring in English, psychology, bio, art history, etc., then I think the college name on the diploma matters more. Very few employers know how strong a particular major is at any given college. It matters even more if the OP’s D should want to seek employment outside the area where she attends college.

I do advocate doing internships,summer jobs, and participating in ECs to boost your odds of post-grad employment no matter where you go to college. So check out the career services center and find out how much help they give you in landing internships, summer jobs, and permanent employment. How many employers interview on campus?

Finally, I wouldn’t lump all “7 sisters” schools together either. They vary enormously.

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Jonri,

OP here. Thanks for your input, some of it is helpful. Although I’m wondering why you can make the statement that “from the description of the student, I doubt grad school is in the cards?” She is very much considering grad school especially since that would increase her career opportunities. Believe me, she knows that psychology and education are not high paying careers, but she loves working with children - that’s why she is not going into a STEM field. She will be graduating from a rigorous highly ranked college prep private high school with 7 AP classes. She got a 1410 on her SAT. Her unweighted GPA is a 3.8. She was accepted into the honors college at a highly ranked public university (I just looked and only 6.8 percent out of 22,000 students are in the honors college). So do tell - what is it about that description that implies that grad school is not in the cards for her?

I apologize if I am not reading your tone properly, but only yours out of all the other very helpful replies comes off as a bit blindly judgemental and insulting.

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I have two DDs in college and one in HS. The oldest is an international relations major at Tufts, a senior. She has worked hard and is now fluent in Arabic and Spanish. She is being courted by numerous companies and non-profits and is in the running for two grants. The Tufts name has given her access to numerous opportunities.Her internships were unpaid (though top-notch) but this industrious kid has always manged to break even with grants. We qualified for a little bit of aid with two in college but I feel great about the money spent.She has thrived there. My second DD is a computer science major (artificial intelligence track) with minors in math and ethics. She has had an internship with insane pay every summer. She’s a junior at Stanford and the networking is amazing. I think she would thrive anywhere but the peer group is incredible.

My friend has two daughters - one went to UW and tried to apply to medical school. It was kind of a nightmare with all the prep on the kid. The other daughter went to ND. That school practically spoon-fed her select internships, interview prep, etc. So , I agree with the above poster - depends on the situation and you can’t know that until sophomore/junior year.

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imo, the above poster wasn’t making judgement about grad school based on stats, but instead based on the zillions of parents that believe their student is destined for grad school only to find things change over the four years in college. If they have good connections, internships and opportunities in college, or their plans change, etc., grad school may not be in the cards. Stats in high school have little to do with grad school. A psych grad I know - fluent in four languages, did the 11-12 APs in high school with a 4.5 kind of gpa, with all intention of being a therapist (meaning grad school) working with teens, landed an incredible job with a big four acctg firm and never looked back. It happens, have to be open to the opportunities and it is good to go to the school where those opportunities are more likely to happen. They chose a more expensive private for the reasons @jonri stated above, over the state U honors program.

I think parents that have been through college age kids understand the idea of grad school being automatic can be a naive one. Possible of course and many do, but not nearly as certain as believed going in. My bf was sure her overachieving high stat son was going to be a doctor (entered in as bio major), then a nuclear engineer (changed his major to that) until he finally changed to business, got his degree and couldn’t find a good job so went to a 9 month programming school after he graduated and is now a programmer. Kids change.

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Kids in HS have only a vague understanding of what people do for a living. So the fact that so many change majors, change fields, think they are destined for A but end up doing B is almost a given.

There are psych majors- today- who are working at big ad agencies trying to get young adults NOT to start smoking. There are psych majors working at Facebook trying to understand why certain applications are very “sticky” for kids but not others. There are psych majors working at big pharmaceutical companies trying to figure out and test with young kids why certain flavors of cough medicine are more appealing than others, even when objective research suggests that they all should be the same (hint- fragrance, viscosity, color, packaging, shape of the spoon are more important than the actual taste).

Your D may think that “working with kids” means a low paying job at a clinic. And that means grad school. But the three careers I just mentioned are high paying work- for psych majors- that don’t require grad school. So maybe that’s her path.

We’re trying to be helpful here.

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@LeastComplicated I am sorry you were offended.

In part I was reacting to the statement by another poster than

Based on what you said she wants to do

I don’t see a graduate degree as “a must” for those career goals. It may make sense to get one later–in something like public administration–but only after working for a number of years.

I’ll refrain from answering any of your questions in the future, so you needn’t worry.

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@LeastComplicated - When I first read @jonri’s post I didn’t interpret it as judgmental or insulting, but after your comment I went back and read it again and can see how you might have viewed it that way. I also believe that @blueskies2day gives a good summary of the misunderstanding.