Blossom and Bluesky, Thanks for your input and, very sincerely, your helpfulness. And I apologize again Jonri - I must have completely misinterpreted your tone and, more importantly, the point your were making. (Just so you all know, I will be apologizing to Jonri personally via PM). I would like to thank everyone else also who has taken the time to provide me with your input. I appreciate it very much!
johnri, please look for my PM. So sorry.
I don’t think the answer is universal. Much would depend on so many other factors, especially with employers, but again, it depends on the school.
Attending a school on a full tuition scholarship means that your child is either -
A - brilliant, or
B - works very hard to accomplish her goals, or
C- both.
These are of course admirable qualities, that may impress some employers more than others. There is too much variability to simply say it won’t mean anything. Additionally, most employers know that a student on a full tuition scholarship typically has to maintain a certain GPA to qualify each year - so it is not like this is completely a high school thing.
Also,
I get the worrying, but I am not fond of “making” a child take anything, especially if it involves enough courses to make a minor - usually 4 to 6. I am fine with “suggesting” and I of course don’t know anything about your relationship with your child. And this of course has nothing to do with the merits of a Chinese language minor. If you want your child to have a true college experience, she needs to be allowed to choose what she wants.
3puppies-- employers also know about full tuition scholarships which are D- i.e. financial need. There are kids at need-only schools who put “attended on full scholarship” on their resumes- as if Recruiting/Talent management folks don’t know the difference between need and merit.
Apology accepted.
One thing to consider is the depth and breadth of the offerings in her anticipated major at the various schools. One of mine was considering a LAC he got into for science. The school touted the undergraduate research experience, which was available. However, the research areas of the faculty at the school did not intersect with his area of interest so it would not have been a good fit. He is attending a large research U where he is doing research since freshman year (but that likely would not have been the case if he was in a more popular major).
I would have her look at the course offerings, the field placements, the internship offered on the college placement office websites, the 4-year grad rate, how often courses of interest are offered, and where kids are getting jobs. Looking at Centre vs VATech, clearly VATech offers a wider range of psych classes and more advanced classes. That may or may not be something of concern for your student.
She sounds like a very bright student and I think she would excel wherever she goes. Centre is a very good school, but is very small (smaller than our HS) and a pretty high percentage of kids in Greek life. Good luck to her.
The OP original question: “Is it worth the cost to send your child to a more prestigious college for a degree like psychology or education if we can afford it - but barely, and with some impacts like having to delay retirement by four years, and,
Would you send your kid to a less selective school, with average and limited academic programs just because of the scholarship or would you nudge them in the direction of the better state schools, even though the kid says they want a small school environment (but how do they know that?).”
Everyone has given plenty of very helpful input on things to consider and how to try and evaluate the situation to come to a “good” decision.
That said, it seems to me that the answer here is essentially unknowable. We seem to be facing a similar situation in our family: several different options involving different kinds of schools (smaller LACs, mid size private research and larger State U’s) and different financial packages that make various schools more or less affordable.
It might be relatively easy to say that a full tuition scholarship to attend school A is better than having to pay full price at very similar school B. But as the price differences narrow a bit and the schools become more varied in their characteristics, it becomes much, much harder to evaluate.
Is moderately more prestigious LAC school X worth paying $15k per year more than Honors college at public University Y? What about private research University Z that is a little lower down the prestige scale but is still a very good school? A school may have a great department in this or that field that my child might be interested in, but we know that many, many students’ interests change as they go through college.
Is the school too big, too small? What is the “right” size and how much is it worth paying for, especially given that many kids can and do succeed in a variety of environments.
You can’t realistically make even “simple” financial comparison (it’s worth paying a total of $96,000 more because that is how much earnings will increase by going to this school over that one) because it is impossible to know how your particular earnings will be affected over a lifetime by where you go to school, what you study there and how well you perform.
It seems equally difficult to make a qualitative comparison. How important is presence of greek life compared with club sports? What about opportunities for music performance as a non-major vs food service quality? How important is the surrounding town vs student diversity? Is it worth paying a total of $42k more to be in a desirable location? What about $19k? One school has a little more of what we are looking for in one area and less in another. Even of the things you “think” you want, how much will each of those really matter in actuality once you are there on campus?
I was speaking with a professor at a school recently during an admitted students program and they emphasized that students should try to go where they will be happiest because they are likely to thrive when they feel great about their situation. Ok, but which school is that? Plenty of people are happy and some are not at the most prestigious schools. Plenty of people are very happy and some are not at much less prestigious schools, or bigger/smaller schools, etc. People can be happy in a variety of different situations and environments and they can just as well be unhappy, though it is likely that for most, it is mixed (happy about some things, not so happy about others, unhappy freshman year, happy sophomore year, burned out senior year). Wherever you go, there you are.
@ 3puppies, Thanks for your comment. As for the “making her take Chinese classes”, I guess that’s an issue that could be addressed in another discussion: “Do you, as a parent, try to influence your child’s course of study in college”. I believe, for the most part, that parents should not push their children into fields of studies or career fields that the child is not interested in. However, unless the child is paying for the total cost of their education, I think the parents should have some say, TO SOME EXTENT (all caps to emphasize that I don’t think the parents should demand that their child should choose a particular major) in a child’s college choice, and yes, what they choose to study. I mean, some children, at 17 and 18 are definitely not mature enough to make those choices on their own IMO. For example, my younger daughter, who is a sophomore in HS, has a friend who wants to be a veterinarian because she “likes animals”. However, this friend has not taken any advanced science or math classes and skips school when she doesn’t do her homework. She has no clue what becoming a veterinarian entails and obviously neither do her parents. So I definitely think that parents should play a role in guiding their children in making good academic and career choices that fit their interests and abilities. That being said, when my daughter told me that she wanted to major in psychology, and I researched the job prospects, I knew that she might have problems finding a job with just a B.S. degree, so I “advised” her that she might need to take some courses that would help her in her career path - she really wants to work with adopted kids/orphans from/in China (she spent the first year of her life in a Chinese orphanage herself). She has volunteered as an adoption advocate and made a trip to China where she spent a week 24/7 with two orphans (they slept in her hotel room and she was totally responsible for caring for a 5 year old girl with cerebral palsy). She then came home and posted information about the two children on social media (adoption groups), wrote articles about her experience that were published on adoption websites, and corresponded with potential adoptive parents. At 17, she had a big role in helping those two kids find adoptive families (they have been home now for about 6 months and are doing great). I have never seen her more engaged and excited about ANYTHING else she has ever participated in or experienced. She wants to go and volunteer full time with Chinese orphans (which, believe it or not - there are a lot of foreigners who do just that). But I told her that she couldn’t make a living of doing that and that she would not have health care as a volunteer (yes I worry). So I advised her the best compromise was to look for a job with the many non-profit organizations that work with children from China (including adoption agencies) and that learning the language would make her a candidate that would stand out. And if she wasn’t able to find her dream job - then being fluent in Chinese would open the doors to job opportunities in other fields. And then if that didn’t work out, she could get a teaching certification or go to grad school. So, it wasn’t me giving her an off the cuff order - it was a well thought out piece of advice which I believe will help her achieve her career goals. It will take some time and effort on her part, but I told her she was going to have to take a LOT of classes that were not fun and interesting - that she couldn’t expect to be taking interesting psychology courses for four years. So, she’s fine with this plan. So 3puppies, I hope this helps you understand why I’m “making” her take Chinese courses (I know that was a very poor way of stating it). We actually chose her top schools based on whether she would be able to take Chinese courses (all of them offer them or she would be able to take them at a nearby school with cross registration agreements).
Oh my goodness @ eyquem! I agree with everything you said, especially after reading all the comments and advice I’ve received on my post. “That said, it seems to me that the answer here is essentially unknowable.” I have come to this exact conclusion. We’re going to just have to sit down together as a family and try to make the best decision and hope that things work out. On a lighter note, my younger daughter just came home from school and her current major life issue is: “Why are there only two Dr. Peppers left when we bought me a 12 pack two days ago? Who has been drinking them”, and “Since I only have two left, when should I drink them - right now because I really need one, and then another with my homework, or should I save one to drink tomorrow morning?” LOL!
My daughter was recruited by several fairly small schools in small towns. It was really the size of the community, or the access to other schools (consortium) that made a difference. If the school has other schools nearby, that opens up the number of students, the number of businesses that cater to students, transportation options, entertainment options.
Daughter chose a school that has 3500 undergrads, but it’s an hour from Orlando, an hour from other colleges along the coast. There are concerts, entertainment places, airports, cruise ships, highways available (escapes!). Last night I asked her and her boyfriend about some of the colleges and towns visited when playing these small schools (2000 or fewer undergrads) in GA, SC, NC, even southern IL. Her boyfriend said they are just tiny towns with nothing to do. The most interesting thing in Mt. Olive is the pickle factory! The team usually can’t stay in the town because there IS no town, no hotels, no restaurants that can handle a team (about 25 for the girls, about 45 for the guys). No question that if either had gone to one of these schools (schools that have fairly good sports programs) they would have transferred. We know a lot of kids who have gone to these smaller schools to play sports and left within a year because the school/town is just too small. Most have transferred to the flagship school which just a year before had seemed toooooo big and found that they aren’t too big, that they offer a lot more, and that you don’t actually interact with all the 20,000 students every day.
Diversity is an issue. My daughter is also adopted from China. She really doesn’t care about diversity, doesn’t seek out heritage clubs or opportunities, doesn’t want to learn Chinese or travel there (we went once, that was enough for her). She is the only minority on her team, her boyfriend is white, her friends are all white…but she would have been concerned about the lack of diversity at some of those little schools. My daughter wanted her race not to matter, and she found a school where it doesn’t. In some of those small towns, it matters.
I’m assuming the schools your daughter is looking at are not too small or too remote, because it is unlikely such a school could offer a good Mandarin program. Small schools can’t offer everything and Mandarin would be hard to maintain at a small school. Also check the current course offerings against the catalog; many schools have a long list of courses offered, but only offer some in the fall semester others in the spring, or only every two years. My other daughter is at a larger state university (10,000) and she’s run into that a few times. She took the spring semester off sophomore year, and now is doing a semester abroad spring junior year. If a course is only offered in the spring, she’s now missed it for two years. She may have wanted to take a certain course, but if may never be offered when she’s actually on campus. If the professor takes a sabbatical next spring? Daughter is SOL for that course.
FWIW, and maybe particularly given the points that are basically making the point that she probably doesn’t know what she wants to do, don’t make plans with that too firmly in mind.
also, FWIW, I’m a big fan of the all women’s colleges. I very much think their role is as relevant today as ever.
OP- maybe your D is focused on working with children in a Chinese orphanage because she doesn’t know that there are think-tanks which focus on immigration and adoption policies and that real live people work there. Maybe she doesn’t know that there are advocacy organizations which focus on educating legislators about the issues that children who immigrate to the US face. Maybe she hasn’t read some of the position papers and research done by the UN and World Bank and Gates Foundation on pediatric health disparities, or doesn’t know which global pharmaceutical companies are working to cure various diseases which are endemic in rural China. Maybe she thinks that econ is boring until she takes a class from a dynamic professor whose research interest is microfinance for women and young mothers in the developing world. Or maybe she decides to become a family/adoption lawyer, or develops an interest in sociology studying the adaptation strategies of orphans in different places and why they have disparate outcomes.
If your D went to a savvy career counselor and said, “Chinese Orphans-- Go” she’d get back a list of 30 careers which springboard off that interest.
My point is just that Psych seems to be a maybe, and low paying seems to be a maybe (unless she has an aversion to being ambitious which isn’t likely from what you’ve posted), so perhaps the right strategy is to figure out what you can afford and where she’ll feel comfortable and embraced and go from there without trying to solve for her 25 year old self.
I haven’t read this entire thread but I can say that psychology is a field that many who major in don’t pursue as careers. My d had two friends at two different schools, one lost interest but felt it was too late to change his major and didn’t want make his minor his major and increase his workload. So they are several years removed from college and what he does for a living is totally unrelated to anything he studied in college, either minor or major. Other family friend’s daughter was more interested in her Jewish studies minor and at her school it was only a minor so she had no options. Her undergrad internship at a Jewish organization in DC turned into a job and she has now moved into position as a fundraiser at a different Jewish organization. Now that is specific to her… she had no idea that with an undergrad degree in psychology even if you want to go to grad school, you need two years of internship/related jobs before can apply to grad school.
Other familly friend’s daughter with Ph.D in psychology and just completed her post-doc. She was lucky with her placements because there are more grad students than placements. Even after completing her post-doc, there is a huge waiting period before being licensed by the state in which she resides and being employed even though she secured an offer immediately after the post-doc. It is a very long road in a very competitive field to secure gainful employment.
I went to Yale for psychology. Had a great career. Retired in June. I was interested in human services and helping folk, not making a lot of money. Good for me. My D is a junior at Yale. Literature major. Thinking of grad school or law school. Into environmental issues, language acquisition, international relations. Probably not going to be a Wall Street tycoon. Each person is different. Some go to college for the love of learning, get a liberal arts degree and are happy in academia or human services or some other sort of not so sexy field. Others choose a more professional path (still may love learning) and major in computer science, engineering or something that has a clearer path to employment. Each is fine for the kid that chooses one of those paths. Happy, in the end, is what is best. I know too many people who went into careers because they were lucrative. Now, 30 years later, they have major regrets.
Good luck in making the choice. You will have to decide what is cost effective for you.
I bet you see just as many regrets in the opposite direction. Being low income sounds fine in theory until you have to start paying off student loans or pay a mortgage or want to be able to send your kids OOS or to an expensive private that doesn’t meet full need. Now, if you have family money or a spouse that’s high income, you might be able to pursue a low paying career without the financial sacrifices, which normally come with it.
Not necessarily as some small schools may not only have Mandarin programs, but also ones which are considered on par with those at elite universities.
Incidentally, one reason why I chose my LAC(Oberlin) over some universities was precisely because they had much stronger offerings in Mandarin* and my area of study. Even now with many more improvements and the addition of a few faculty members, I’d still make the same choice if all was created equal. The fact I also received the largest FA/scholarship package was a much needed added bonus.
- One college classmate found his plan to take second year Chinese at his in-state public over the summer in order to be ready to leapfrog directly into our college's third year Chinese courses found it was a non-starter as that public U's Mandarin course offerings proceeded at half the pace of our LAC's which would have left him woefully unprepared to take the Chinese placement test and score high enough to get placed into our LAC's 3rd year Chinese courses.
@ cobrat One of her scholarship schools is quite small and, no, it does not offer Mandarin classes. However, it does have a cross registration deal with a pretty selective medium sized private university (only 10 minutes away and the school provides a shuttle) that has a good Chinese program. I’m thinking this is may be where she ends up - it is the lowest cost of her top five and the opportunity to take up to 8 credit hours/semester at the other university at no cost will probably make up for any deficiencies in the course offerings at the women’s college. But, yes, her top schools all offer her the ability to take Mandarin courses, but on the advice of some of the commenters, I have done some research, and a couple of them are pretty weak. So the comments have been very helpful in several ways.
@roethlisburger - now I didn’t mean they ended up working at a menial job. I mean that some people willingly choose careers that may pay less than Wall Street business type wages. College professors, counselors, teachers, law enforcement personnel choose careers that they know won’t ever give them millions of dollars. Do some people later regret their choices? Yeah, there are times when I wished I had gone to law school and done that route. But in reality, I know its not true. I also sometimes wish I had more than the one kid I did. But that passes too. So, while I am sure there are folk that have regrets and wallow in 'what ifs", I have found that most people at the end of their lives aren’t regretting their career choices but focusing on family and life.
^We’re probably not going to completely agree, so I’ll just add there’s a lot of middle ground between a public school teacher with a gross income of $50k/year and a Wall Street tycoon.
I not only know several HS classmates who are in that very position, I’ve dated one who was so miserable in her highly paid position as a pharmacist at a regional hospital that she’d literally complain about her job and how she felt trapped in it because of her narrow pre-professional education every time we’ve dated/hung out. It was one critical reason why she’s become an ex…
There’s also the possibility what may seem like a pre-professional track to a highly promising lucrative career ends up being otherwise due to unforeseen events whether it’s ChemE majors in the '70s, CS/MIS majors after the dotcom crash of 2000-1*, or law after the 2008 recession and major implosion within the legal industry which took out several large prominent biglaw firms.
- My older relatives knew plenty of ChemE majors who were un/underemployed due to the oil shock to such an extent some parents of undergrads in that era actually half-joked their college kids would have a much higher chance of landing a leading role in a major Hollywood production than getting a job with a ChemE degree.
** Knew several CS/MIS major friends who ended up working as floor clerks in big box stores, temps, retail, etc after being laid off from their computer/tech jobs in that period. In 2011, I found a car rental chain representative was a CS major who graduated right into the dotcom bust and long-term un/underemployment lasting nearly a decade. After chatting with him for a bit about what he studied, his major, stints of un/underemployment in various retail/odd jobs, and how the rep position was the first “real job” he landed after graduating a decade before.