Is it time for the Ivy league to offer football scholarships?

No, we can’t. First of all, it would be embarrassing for the Ivies to schedule D3 schools. Secondly, D3 schools tend to have short football schedules that leave little to no room for out-of-conference games, as noted above.

The Ivies have a 10-game football schedule. Seven of those games will be against other Ivies. So each Ivy only needs to fill three out-of-conference slots every year.

There are plenty of bad Division I-FCS schools in the northeastern US to fill those slots. And even if there weren’t, there are lots of bad I-FCS schools nationwide (e.g. in the Pioneer Football League) that would be happy to schedule an Ivy, even if it meant high travel costs.

My opinion is that the Ivies are best off using their out-of-conference games to develop regional rivalries with other nearby I-FCS schools; e.g. Penn and Princeton with Lehigh, Lafayette, and Villanova; Columbia with Fordham and Wagner; Cornell with Bucknell and Colgate; Dartmouth with UNH and Maine, etc.

Sorry, that’s what I meant.

The Ivies have already been there, done that. They’ve competed at the top level of football, they know that there are very high costs, in terms of both money and academic standards, and they don’t think it’s a worthwhile investment.

For example, take a look at this number (from 2015):

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/02/04/breaking-down-yale-athletics-budget/

So the Ivies can cover all of the costs for FCS football with around $3 million per year. For comparison, FBS programs routinely pay more than just to a get a head coach.
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/

FCS is a subdivision of Division I. So technically, the Ivies play in Division I in all sports, including football.

The whole point of FCS is that it allows a Division I school to play football at a reasonable cost, without getting caught up in the high-dollar “arms race” of FBS. There are 100+ schools that play FCS football, not just the Ivies, including USN&WR “Top 50” universities like Georgetown, Lehigh, the University of California at Davis, and Villanova.

Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see more schools dropping from FBS to FCS in the future, rather than the other way around. It’s one thing to play FBS football in a “Power 5” conference (like the Big Ten), where the high costs are offset by fat network TV contracts. But if you’re not in the Power 5, then the revenue drops off dramatically, while the expenses remain high. Idaho is in the process of dropping from FBS to FCS for that reason.

Re: 37

UChicago isn’t in the UAA for football. @Corbett

The UAA currently doesn’t have enough football-playing members to formally sponsor the sport. So there is no such thing as “UAA football” for Chicago to join. If Chicago wants to play NCAA football, they have to do it either as an independent, or as an associate member of another league.

This is not a particularly unusual situation. For example, BYU plays football as an independent, because their primary conference (the West Coast Conference) is oriented towards basketball and does not sponsor football. Georgetown plays football as an associate member of the Patriot League, rather than in their primary conference (Big East) for the same reason.

The UAA does informally track the records of member schools (including Chicago) in football:
http://uaa.prestosports.com/sports/fball/index

@Corbett Money and academic standards? With the most endowment money in the US that isn’t a problem and exactly what academic standards are Stanford, Duke, Northwestern etc…suffering from having major Div 1 football programs? Heck even a college like Liberty is going up to Division 1 FBS. Far more beneficial to play in FBS and give football scholarships imo. Again if you are nay Ivy league school why wouldn’t you want the tippy top athletes whom also have the academics. Why let Stanford pass you by both academically(more equivalent) and athletically. They don’t seem to be struggling with academics or football despite the “cost”. Now IF the Ivy schools were compromising their academic standards to have a top football program I would understand. However keeping the AI while still giving football scholarships wouldn’t do that.

@twoinanddone Why indeed. To your point, I do not know many, but I do know more than a few athletes who voluntarily quit and have their full scholarships. I suspect it is a sport by sport, coach by coach decision that changes even within a university. I also always have to remember the NCAA rules are so very different for the money generating sports.

I think it’s time for a significant number of the other schools to stop offering athletic scholarships.
If professional football and basketball wants to establish minor league systems they should go do that, but it shouldn’t have anything to do with college.

That will never happen…generates waaay too much money for the colleges.

It’s true that the Ivies have money, so they could afford FBS football if they wanted to. And the Ivies have high academic standards, so they could afford to let them slip a little to get better athletes, if they wanted to.

But the key phrase here is: “if they wanted to”. They aren’t interested. And there is no pressure from their students or alumni to do anything differently.

The Ivies don’t even take full advantage of the opportunities at the FCS level:

  • FCS would let them schedule 11 or 12 regular-season games. The Ivies only play 10.
  • FCS would let them offer athletic scholarships. The Ivies don't do it.
  • FCS would give them an automatic berth in the postseason FCS tournament. The Ivies decline to participate.

The key differentiator between FCS and FBS isn’t the quality of play – every year, some FCS teams beat FBS teams. The difference is the postseason. FCS (the “football championship subdivision”) holds an NCAA championship tournament (just like basketball, soccer, lacrosse, hockey, etc.). FBS (the “football bowl subdivision”) has a series of non-NCAA events called “bowl games”. So if the Ivies moved to FBS, they would gain the right to participate in bowl games, like the Friskies Cat Food Bowl or whatever.

But the Ivies don’t play postseason football. Moving up to FBS would cost them tens of millions of dollars per year (maybe running into the hundreds of millions if you include stadium renovations), and for what? So they could decline postseason invitations from the Cat Food Bowl, instead of declining postseason invitations from the FCS tournament?

Ivies can’t give football scholarships and none for other sports. They’d have to give at least as many scholarships to women, so 60 football scholarships? Pick out 5 or 6 women’s teams to add scholarships, and then those teams would have to change the way they award need based aid. What about basketball? Can they get scholarships too?

I don’t agree that it’s more beneficial to anyone to have the Ivies playing in the FBS, or trying to attain the same level as Stanford or Michigan. The Ivies play at their level. Not everyone wants to live the life of an Alabama football player, or even the Stanford player, and wants to play at a different level. If the Ivies want to be more competitive against teams outside the Ivy league, all they would have to do is drop the AI and recruit some beef. The AI is self imposed so they can get rid of it at any time. They like it. If they did start giving scholarships under NCAA rules, would that make Harvard much stronger than Dartmouth just because of size (not to mention the weather) Stanford or Dartmouth? Would you rather play Thanksgiving weekend in sunny California or close to Canada?

@Corbett That’s the point however. Stanford is one of if not the top when it comes to academic standards yet their football program is strong BECAUSE of scholarships. As I mentioned before the Ivy schools SHOULD keep the AI and not lower standards just as Stanford, Duke, Northwestern etc…keep academic standards. The difference would be the scholarship offers to lure them from such programs to Ivy schools. The Ivy schools have the capability(as proved by other programs) to have a top football conference AND keep academic integrity.

From the San Jose Mercury News:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2008/11/05/stanford-vs-duke-basketball-the-difference-in-admissions-standards/

That’s for basketball. Football, if anything, would be lower.

I don’t doubt that the Ivies bend their normal admissions standards for talented athletes. But not that much.

@twoinanddone No, school size doesn’t translate to automatic success in football in regards to smaller schools. Notre Dame vs UCF…for example. They(Ivy) wouldn’t have to reach the same level as top FBS(would be nice though) but need to increase the quality of their football. Game attendance has dropped and lower schools in past years are now defeating Ivy schools because they now can offer scholarships for football.

@twoinanddone Keep in mind Patriot league schools still offer need based but now offer football scholarships(15 per year) which also takes from what could have been Ivy signees. Most Patriot League schools do not give athletic scholarships in a number of sports, and Bucknell only granted them in basketball prior to the addition of football scholarships in 2012

@Corbett The Ivy colleges lowest AI is quite low in fact. The point of Stanford as an academic example doesn’t mean they don’t allow SOME lower level football players but the point is even with handing out some Stanford is right up there and in fact ahead of most of the Ivy schools in academic reputation here and world wide. Them giving FA AND football scholarships have not hurt their academic reputation one bit. In fact 1st round draft pick Christian Mccaffrey’s younger brother wasn’t even offered a football scholarship by Stanford due to academics.

Last data I saw on Stanford football was back in 2008 but the average football player admitted had a 3.63 GPA well above another top program in UCLA with a 3.15.

But if Bucknell gives 15 football scholarships, it would have to balance it with a number of women’s sports scholarships. And why 15 and not the full 60 scholarships? Does it only need to admit 15 football players who need the money to make it competitive?

You are assuming that there are a bunch of really smart football players out there who would go to Dartmouth or Brown if only there was a football scholarship available, but since there are no scholarships they go to Stanford or Michigan or a Patriot league school. Are you sure all these defectors would have the AI to go to an Ivy? Are they all from high income families so they wouldn’t get FA at an Ivy but would benefit from athletic scholarships?

Another thing about the Ivies is that they offer a lot of sports, and that’s going to mean they aren’t going to be the strongest in all. University of Denver is a mid sized school and doesn’t offer football. They concentrate the athletic money on hockey, lacrosse, skiing, gymnastics. The Ivy league seems to be happy to offer more opportunities to more students, to be competitive with each other but not necessarily with the rest of the NCAA. What’s wrong with that?

@twoinanddone Well yes they(Patriot) actually did do this to take players from the Ivy. Remember it’s 15x7 teams plus yes those who are high academics who get full rides to Stanford, Duke, ND, Northwestern etc…who are on national tv…and play in front of 60,000 plus.

There are actually a lot of top academic football players who do consider Ivy as well as Patriot and/or Div 1. Yes most considering Ivy would make the AI. Even with free tuition($65,000 or less) they need to pay for R&B plus vs full ride.

My point is Stanford etal are the gold standard of having both top academic reputations plus high level football thru the process of both FA and Football scholarships. Offering football scholarships hasn’t diminishing their academic reputation in the least. Patriot teams used to be easy wins for Ivy football in years past. The simple addition of adding 15 athletic scholarships has indeed raised their level and based on results made them at least even now with Ivy schools…plus they still have a pretty decent academic reputation for most.

Doesn’t Stanford almost have to offer athletic scholarships? If Stanford gave up athletic scholarships, who would they have there to play sports against??
The Ivy League schools can do what they do because they have each other. So if they don’t want to give scholarships they still have somebody to play sports with- ie each other.