Is it worth $50K?

Parents Forum
61

<p>Just a note on "fully funded" grad programs. </p>

<p>To restate what's been noted many times on this site, keep in mind that most professional grad schools -- Medical/Dentist/Vet, Law, Business, Education (unless going for a research PhD) etc are NOT "full funded". Alh's kids friends with full funded professional programs are rare.</p>

<p>So...the money discussion isn't just taking out loans for undergrad. For some parents who think it is highly likely their very bright kids will go to a professional grad program after college, they prefer to have their kids go to honors program at State Flagship U, or Merit Scholarship private (which would indicate no IVY, Stanford or about 15 -20 other highly ranked private Uni's and LAC's) and then use their money/loans for grad school.</p>

62

<p>“Alh's kids friends with full funded professional programs are rare.”</p>

<p>Absolutely!!! And no one can plan on such an outcome. These same students would probably have qualified for merit combined med/vet/dentistry programs instate public. One friend did go this route and has been perfectly satisfied with the experience. These days that would seem an increasingly attractive option imho.</p>

63

<p>
[quote]
I see that circumstances (divorce, having children in your late '30's, having a special needs child, etc.) can radically change how you view paying for college

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</p>

<p>Wow, blossom, triple crown for me! Divorce, check. Having child in late 30s, check. Having special needs child, check. (Not in that order, however.)</p>

<p>I hit the jackpot!!! :D</p>

64

<p>Now that DS has applied to grad school and our family financial situation has taken a nosedive due to DH's passing, I am SO GLAD that there is not a $200K undergrad debt. Actually, we could not have afforded that under the best of circumstances. DS has gotten a great education and many opportunities in the honors program at our state u, and I am grateful for it. Now there is DD to consider too. You just never know what tomorrow will bring and I think it is smart to college-shop conservatively.</p>

<p>(crossposted with owlice, but ditto the change of circumstance idea.)</p>

65

<p>According to our school's profile, the largest number of students go to either our state U or the one in a neighboring state with reciprocity. Next on the list? U of Penn and Dartmouth. </p>

<p>What I think ends up being interesting is that if you are wealthy it's not really a debate. If you qualify for a lot of aid, a lot of really great name brand schools have changed their policies regarding loans (replacing with scholarship so there is no debt following graduation from UG). I think this point alone is what is responsible for the huge influx of applications to the likes of Harvard and Dartmouth (along with their larger marketing efforts to that extent). </p>

<p>What this means, of course, is that the only ones that this becomes a hugely compromising decision are those who don't qualify for aid... just one more example of the middle getting squeezed despite being the majority.</p>

66

<p>"add up all the money you spend on frivilous things: expensive haircuts, manicures, designer coffee" </p>

<p>So maybe 4 years isn't going to do it, but those who had the insight to save $200.00 a month for your child's education, compounded at 7%, have $87,000 after 18 years. Pretty Good! This is how we saved for our kids education....And about 15 months ago, oldest would have had enough to go Ivy! Now, of course, all of their accounts have gone way south and we have tough decisions to make about their educations.</p>

67

<p>To the previous poster who felt that an Ivy made a difference for the following reasons:

[quote]
through my S's experience, he got paid internship with the same major engineering co. 2 years in a row which only recruits at specific schools and was well-paid, had taken courses from top well-known professors who were active in industry, some in the news, joined research team with actual satellete launch, made connections he otherwise wouldn't have made... and upon graduation got into a grad program at another top school with full ride.

[/quote]

It sounds like your son made the most of a terrific educational experience... but I just have to point out that EVERYTHING you cite in the above quote also applies to the engineering school at our state flagship, including the recruitment, internships, and full ride at top grad programs -- all quite normal at top engineering schools, most of which are found in state universities.</p>

<p>To the OP:
Faced with the same decision, including other top schools, we decided it was not worth it. This was a purely economic choice and the decision may have been different had the private schools not meant huge debt. We focused on department quality, and with that in mind, the state school actually came out ahead. However, when considering the overall ambiance and the general student population, the privates were admittedly superior. It was not an easy decision.
I'm not sure what you meant by "little to no debt and therefore, no financial aid" -- not having debt has no bearing on your eligibility for financial aid. Financial aid is based mostly on income.</p>

<p>And finally:

[quote]
And I have to say it's pretty insulting to read about giving up starbuck's coffee. Are you kidding me? THAT will help me pay for 200k each for multiple kids??

[/quote]

Agreed!</p>

68

<p>I can not find anywhere on this thread that said specifically that giving up Starbuck's will pay for a private school education. Perhaps you missed the point. Some people choose to forgo expensive little, and big, luxuries to save for their kids education--public and private. Very simply--it's a choice!</p>

69

<p>morrismn...no, it's more that some of the folks responding here would save exactly zero by giving up designer coffee and manicures. Or cutting out the fancy cars or houses. Many folks live below their means (even though the media likes to focus on the other types) but STILL don't have anywhere near the ability to fork over 200k without pain. What kind of pain? Long Term Debt. Or substantially eating into retirement. The 401k statements have not been looking good.
That said, I don't think that choosing the cheaper option is a burden. Sometimes it IS the private. Or a good public with scholarships. And if one looks at both UG and grad education, spending less in the first four years might be wise choice. It's really hard to generalize on this topic.</p>

70

<p>For jollies I plugged zero income into the EFC calculator and listed the rest of our assets (retirement savings and investements) as required and we still pull a 100% EFC to a $50,000+ a year school. So, no, it does not have mainly to do with income. It has to do with wealth on paper, disregarding the realities of each individual situation. Sometimes an individual school will allow for special circumstances, but it is not something to count on.</p>

71

<p>toner.. I find it hard to believe that "Many folks live below their means (even though the media likes to focus on the other types) but STILL don't have anywhere near the ability to fork over 200k without pain"</p>

<p>My H and I have 3 kids in private schools, all top USN ranked schools, one Ivy. We earn less than $200,000 but more than $100,000. So far we have no loans. S should graduate this spring (1 yr late-long story), D1 is a junior and D2 is a first year.</p>

<p>Each kid has outside scholarships because they applied for them- (although some were given w/o application for merit.)</p>

<p>So far we, as parents have no loans. Only our S has any loans. It's gov't loans below $15,000. Low interest, long term.</p>

<p>I realize that earning above $100,000 is not the norm. But if we got financial aid, I find it hard to believe that folks making less than us would not be given a good deal.</p>

72

<p>toner.. I find it hard to believe that "Many folks live below their means (even though the media likes to focus on the other types) but STILL don't have anywhere near the ability to fork over 200k without pain"</p>

<p>My H and I have 3 kids in private schools, all top USN ranked schools, one Ivy. We earn less than $200,000 but more than $100,000. So far we have no loans. S should graduate this spring (1 yr late-long story), D1 is a junior and D2 is a first year.</p>

<p>Each kid has outside scholarships because they applied for them- (although some were given w/o application for merit.)</p>

<p>So far we, as parents have no loans. Only our S has any loans. It's gov't loans below $15,000. Low interest, long term.</p>

<p>I realize that earning above $100,000 is not the norm. But if we got financial aid, I find it hard to believe that folks making less than us would not be given a good deal.</p>

73

<p>sorry--computer said it did not go through.</p>

74

<p>My family was and is still in the position that you are currently dealing with. My family isn't going to qualify for aid, but at the same time we don't have the savings to cover my tuition. My sister and I realized this and instead of putting a financial burden on our family we decided to look at public schools where we could earn scholarships. Yes, we did have dreams of going to Ivies, but we figure that if we do well enough in our undergrad studies it won't matter when we apply to med school (we both want to be doctors). It's better to be a star without insane debt than a graduate of an Ivy who can't afford to eat at McDonalds. Be brutally honest with your child. Make him or her understand the stress this will put on the family. My mother did this to my sister and I and we changed our perspective (Sister is a frosh at U of MN and I'm applying next fall). Is it fair? It is not, but you have to play the cards you are dealt. Good luck with your child</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
Some people choose to forgo expensive little, and big, luxuries to save for their kids education--public and private. Very simply--it's a choice!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For some it's a choice. For some there is no choice at all to cover any of the expenses of their children's education. </p>

<p>However, we want to believe in the American dream, that anything is possible if only you worked hard enough (and thus if you are drawing the short stick it must be your own fault). Despite the fantasy, it's not just about motivation and hard work: a huge part has to do with some innate abilities or challenges, and a huge dose of good fortune or bad luck. </p>

<p>We could pay out of pocket for a top school. But I wouldn't be taking personal credit for that blessing. I certainly wouldn't be shouting "let them eat cake!"</p>

76

<p>stuckinillinois, I know you will be very successful in the future because you have the right attitude. I know a young person who was dead set on going to Stanford and wouldn't take no from her parents. She had other great offers from state u's and others - some with full rides! Now, her family must struggle to pay her tuition and also help her younger sibling who is now applying for college. I doubt that she'll get her pick of schools (she is just as talented.) A friend of mine dreamed of going to Harvard but due to lack of fin. aid, attended the local state u. He did so well that he got into Harvard and earned his MBA - with scholarships!</p>

77

<p>Starbright, you are absolutely right when it comes to cosmic issues like health, having a child with special needs, an ill elderly relative who needs support, etc. But there are lots of other choices one does make in life which have consequences down the road... and I don't think you do these folks a favor by enabling some of the bad choices they've made.</p>

<p>I've got friends and neighbors who are just now trying to re-enter the work force after a 15 or 16 year "maternity leave". Guess what- the law firm you left as a third year associate, doesn't want you back as a fourth year associate. The yoga studio you want to invest in generates about 12K a year in profits and you'll be entitled to half of that. The party planning business you think you could start needs 25K in start up capital which you don't have, and trying getting a bank loan these days for an untested concept as a new entrepreneur. It seems pretty obvious to me that having a stable employment record leads to greater financial stability and ergo, more choices, down the road.</p>

<p>Not everyone gets to choose employment stability. Jobs disappear, companies are bought and sold- jobs move to Mumbai, I get that. But people also make choices which lead to better or worse outcomes sometimes. You think you'll be fulfilled as a HS guidance counselor? Go for it. But don't look up from your desk in 10 years and whine that neurosurgeons make more money and you were really good at science and could have gone to med school except you aren't a very competitive personality plus you really like working with high school kids and having your summers free to go to your parents beach house (this was a real conversation I had with an acquaintance this weekend.)</p>

<p>There are people out there who make a lot of money. Some of them are just plain lucky, some got where they are through nepotism and connections, some were handed a business and just needed not to mess it up. But many of them work really hard, are good at what they do, chose careers which are lucrative, opted to relocate when their employer needed them to, skipped vacations if they had to, and made all those trade-offs which sound so awful when it's you who has to choose... but somehow don't seem so terrible when you look at people who have been quite successful financially and realize how they did it.</p>

<p>There are also people of less means- who choose the dumpy house in the not-so-great neighborhood, knowing that a lower mortgage payment also means lower taxes, lower maintenance, fewer neighbors to impress, etc. Also a choice. Kids these days don't seem to share bedrooms- or bathrooms- and every house needs cable, multiple cell phones, and multiple cars.</p>

<p>These aren't bad things- but they sure mean that the household budget for "neccesities" looks a lot different than it did when we were all growing up. I think we all played in the backyard during the summer (it was free) if you were lucky enough to have a yard. Now it's considered child abuse if you're not paying for tennis, karate, etc.</p>

<p>So yes- there are choices. Not everyone is lucky enough to have them. But for those that are- coulda shoulda woulda. There are still choices to be made that are in your control.</p>

78

<p>toneranger, except for the very wealthy, no one has "anywhere near the ability to fork over 200k without pain. What kind of pain? Long Term Debt. Or substantially eating into retirement."</p>

<p>By definition, substantial lifestyle adjustment, debt and/or retirement deferral is required to finance a $200,000 education. (Usually a combination of the three.) If one is not willing to adopt one or more of these strategies, I endorse state schools and the pursuit of merit scholarships.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
Some people choose to forgo expensive little, and big, luxuries to save for their kids education--public and private. Very simply--it's a choice!

[/quote]

No, it is not always a choice. You cannot possibly know the details of other families' finances -- employment and earning history, family obligations, health issues, etc. Furthermore, "little luxuries" do not make a bit of difference when you are talking about $200k for multiple children.</p>

<p>There is a disturbing attitude I see over and over on this forum -- kind of smug and paternalistic -- assuming that if a family cannot fund private college, with or without financial aid, it is the result of some bad "choices" the family has made. And yes, there have been plenty of posters insisting that if parents had eliminated Starbucks, haircuts, vacations, etc., they would now have the necessary funds. The middle class families I know who have scrimped and saved for many years are barely able to afford a state school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I find it hard to believe that folks making less than us would not be given a good deal.

[/quote]

We were not given an affordable deal.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I find it hard to believe that "Many folks live below their means... but STILL don't have anywhere near the ability to fork over 200k without pain

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This is just an incredible statement.</p>

<p>
[quote]
We could pay out of pocket for a top school. But I wouldn't be taking personal credit for that blessing. I certainly wouldn't be shouting "let them eat cake!"

[/quote]

Great post -- and that's precisely the attitude I'm complaining about -- "let them eat cake."</p>

80

<p>
[quote]
the household budget for "neccesities" looks a lot different than it did when we were all growing up.

[/quote]

Well in my opinion, that's only a small part of the problem. The Ivy I attended in the 70's cost 5k a year for tuition, room and board. The same Ivy today is now 50k. Our income is not ten times higher than my parents' was. In fact, it's not higher at all.</p>