Working however hard in law school doesn’t come close to working in biglaw. You won’t have time to enjoy your “comfortable living.”
If you have the stats to get into a T-14 school, then you will get merit offers from many lower-ranked, but still very respected schools. Son of a good friend who did NOT have T-14 stats is at a top 30 school with a full tuition scholarship. I don’t think you have to chase T-14 if you aren’t looking to get into BigLaw in big cities (NY, Boston, DC, etc.)
I’m so glad I came to this forum, although I won’t have to make a decisions for another 2 years I have a lot to think about. Thank you everyone.
@cbreeze I’ve read about the crazy hours new recruits are expected to work once they make it into the big law life. Do you think it settles down after a few years? I mean how are you suppose to have a family if you work 14 hour days, 7 days a week? I’m not saying I don’t have the work ethic to do that, but at some point it should settle down to maintain a life outside of work, or no?
No, not in biglaw.
Many who can’t put up with this crazy lifestyle will leave for a less busy law firm (perhaps less pay) or go in house after they’ve saved enough to pay off their law school debts.
It does not settle down after a few years in a big firm. It just doesn’t. There is constant pressure for billable hours, and the longer you are there, you will also be expected to join outside Boards, and be a rain-maker (bring in new business) if you want to be considered for partner some day. Being a good lawyer will not be enough in large law firms, no matter what city you practice in.
However, if you are OK with “paying your dues” for a few years in a law firm - national or regional - and then either going to a niche firm or going in-house, I do think those opportunities exist, and they provide maybe less money, but a better work-life balance.
There’s a lot of discussion here, but not much about real law jobs. So, let’s start there. What can you do with a law degree: non-legal work (why did you go to law school), government work, in house work, and private practice (large or small firms). If you work for the government you aren’t paid well and increases in salary are tied to budgetary constraints. In house jobs may work, but you may not develop the contacts to develop a client base and you may become hyper specialized. If you work for a large firm, the pay is good, but the work/life balance is horrible and few young attorneys advance to partnership. In small firms you still have to develop a client base. Now what do they not teach in law school? Developing a client base. In the end, what I see are poor decisions by lawyers that crater their careers. For example, they get tired of BigLaw after a fee years, go in house, get laid off. So, where’s their client base? What client experience do they have? Add in the loans these lawyers have and its a scary issue. It isn’t limited to lower tier schools and students. I graduated from Georgetown 15 years ago. Only one other person I stay in touch with is still in private practice. I know Harvard lawyers that have the same isse.
“H at least (and likely Y and S) has a very generous low income protection plan program that provides loan forgiveness.”
Yes, all three do.
I just got back from my HLS 15th reunion. Plenty of my classmates are in private practice, with a ton of variety: big and small firms, solo practice, different specialties. Many of us, like me, don’t practice law at all any more, but the majority are still lawyers in some capacity. I have one classmate in the U.S. Senate (no, he didn’t come to the reunion) and several others running for office. I agree that graduates of all law schools get laid off during downturns. The market still isn’t what it used to be before 2009. Everyone thinking of going to law school should have a long term plan, even if you’re Bill Gates’s kid and you get into Yale.
I agree with Hanna. I’m a few years ahead of Hanna at HLS, but I’d definitely defer to her on any and all things relating to law school admissions–she knows what she’s talking about, more than I do.
This all validates my point. Georgetown, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are top law schools. Years out, though, my of their graduates are not practicing law. Few people question why. I own my own firm. Yes, it is small. But, I hire attorneys. It is part of what I do. I know the legal private practice market pretty well. What drives the hiring market in private practice (in a large part), and what is taught in law school is mutually exclusive. What is taught in law school is how to be a lawyer. Yes, you need to know that to be a lawyer. But, I need lawyers with clients. If you don’t have people skills, the ability to communicate, and a command presence (if you don’t know what that is, talk to someone in the military), then I don’t want you in my firm. Yes, that sounds harsh. But, I am not hiring employees. I am hiring potential partners. I am making a huge investment in you. A lot of individuals (myself included) don’t get this when they go to law school. They think they will be handed a job and a caseload. It doesn’t work that way. I learned the hard way. I worked hard and had good mentors along the way. If you can’t handle thinking on your feet, knowing your subject inside and out, talking in front of a group of people (even when you are emotionally exhausted), then you aren’t cut out for the private practice of law. It has its moments, but it can be grueling.
How about the market for corporate lawyers? Is that better?
What are your chances of getting into a top 10 school? If you don’t get in one, you shouldn’t go period. The horror stories are true, they were not invented by jealous people who want to kill the competition. Even if I got full tuition I would not go, because that would be three years of lost wages. If you have to go mostly on student loans, you’ll have that debt piled on top of your three years of lost income. Also, you might need a part time job just to afford textbooks which can cost as much as 1500 per semester. Most of your professors will be jerks who don’t really care about you or any other students. Then you will be entering a very dismal job market for lawyers. And the longer it takes to find a job, the harder it will get as most firms will think “if nobody else hired you why should I”. You might get lucky with a document review job and earn 30-40K or you might get one of those unpaid, or low paid internships. Plan on finding someone to live with, if that’s the case.
My daughter is a freshman at GW (Elliott School) majoring in IR (with a concentration in international environmental studies and conflict resolution) and minoring in political science. She’d like to attend law school afterwards but I think she should consider graduate school (this from a parent who has a bachelors in accounting/business administration and some graduate work). She’s very politically active and wants to work supporting a party/political candidate or as a congressional staffer (to start), work for a think tank etc. Isn’t suggestions on the best route?
I feel out of my depth…I interned on a government job at 19 and I’m about to retire from the same job with 30 years. Her dream jobs would include working for the Council on Foreign Affairs, United Nations, State Department.
Yes, if you can get into a top-6 school. Or a a top-50 law school school with a large merit aid package. This is assuming you want to practice law in the first place.
@HappyFace2018, I’ve been reading that if you want to focus on the political arena/policy area, you should try for a law school in DC because those schools usually have the connections and access to internships or jobs in those careers. Also, you could attend a law school in a state that has strong ties to the capital of that state and work there then move into the national arena after gaining experience.
I know that you are thinking grad school for her is the better course but I would let your D decide about grad school or law school. Give her some time to explore the options. She sounds very grounded and will make the right decision when the time comes.
The main thing for LS is the debt. It’s very expensive and if you come out saddled with big debt then it sets you back from goals that you should be able to attain were it not for the burden of debt. Will she already have debt coming out of undergrad. Factor this in as well.
The first two dreams are unicorn-type jobs. Get a lot of overseas experience, perhaps a couple of years in Peace Corps?. State Dept is not as difficult, since all federal agencies hire lotsa grads.
That being said, for high selective jobs, one needs a top LS degree, since prestige matters. For those goals, a top 50 LS won’t cut it.
But my recommendation is focus on quant and analytical classes. Such skills are in short supply, particularly for many who are politically-active.
Good luck.
Seems like the overall consensus is to either go top 10 or don’t go at all. I find that really hard to believe, things can’t be that black and white. I think a lot of it just depends on your perspective on life. Instead of focusing on all the negatives that could happen, it would be much more productive(and better chance in becoming successful) if one can look at all the positives a law degree can provide them. I mean who is the law firm going to hire? A kid who went to Yale who has no people skills because he’s completely miserable with his life or the kid who went to a lower tier school and is filled with motivation and energy.
I’m thinking that it would be just as likely to have kids that have no people skills and miserable from low tier law schools as to have kids from Yale full of motivation and energy.
My understanding from what I’ve read is that the Yale LS degree graduate will get an immediate appt for an interview, the graduate from lower tier will get a call you later, and a graduate from the lowest tier will be thrown in the bottom of the pile. This is for Big Law. I don’t know how true this is though.
Then there are always the outliers. I just read that a graduate of St Mary’s LS in SA recently argued a case before SCOTUS.
@HappyFace2018 Tell your daughter to sit for the State Department Foreign Service Exam. She needs to pass it and move onto the next round. In addition, she needs to do a semester abroad. She also needs to start thinking about doing a graduate degree abroad in international relations, preferably in an English speaking country. So, look at Universities in the UK, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. Law may or may not be an option. Difficult as it may be for lawyers to admit it, executive agencies and US think tanks are not staffed completely with lawyers. For example, I personally know the former head of the RAND office in DC. He now teaches at Georgetown (he was one of my graduate professors). He never took a single law class, but he did get a graduate IR degree from Oxford.
@goingnutsmom Your points are valid vis a vis BigLaw. They want graduates from name law schools. They then churn them and treat them, generally, as fungible billing units. It is a hard life to lead. That is why burnout in BigLaw is so high. Even amongst the name law schools, though, they want top 1/3 of the class and law review. So, BigLaw wants the top of the top. The question from a job market standpoint, is what happens to the rest? I work in the flyover. We do not bill like BigLaw. Companies are starting to realize that and we are seeing our business pick up. There is a dynamic shift occurring in law. If you can get qualify work done for half the price from a firm in Omaha or Memphis, why pay the price of a NYC or DC firm? But, that isn’t enough to stabilize the long-term legal job market.
The trouble with this hypo is that it borders on a straw man argument. But even taken at face value, the fact is that the miserable grad from Yale (if such exists), is rare, but yet grads of T3 law schools who have “motivation and energy” number in the thousands each and every year. There are just not enough law jobs to go around.
According to the Bureau of Labor Stats, the US graduates 2x as many JDs as the market can absorb. Thus, half of ALL law school grads will not be able to get a job requiring a JD, which is ostensibly the reason that folks go do LS in the first place. (Ignoring the trust fund babies who are just booking time before taking over daddy’s company.)
Wow! I am so glad I came to this discussion thread! @goingnutsmom She will be the one who makes the ultimate decision on which path to take but I want to be someone knowledgeable about these paths. Reading all of these comments provides, for me, a starting point to further educate myself. Also, she will be coming out of GW with $15,000 in student loan debt which is a blessing [-O<
@bluebayou When we attended her sorority parent brunch last year, we/she had an excellent conversation with a parent who was about to take a foreign post with the State Department. He said that if she wanted credibility in the IR field she should do Peace Corps which will allow her to basically write her own ticket from there. He said if she wanted to take the politics route she should do law school.
@Peruna1998 Thank you so much. She’s actually interested in the London School of Economics which would be great!