Is Lehigh losing its appeals among top students?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Lehigh University
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<p>My son is trying to decide among a few "slight reach" school" where to apply ED. This is a wild card he can use only once, and hence we are doing a lot of research to decide where to use this wild card. </p>

<p>As I was doing some research on Lehigh, I discovered some not so promising trend.</p>

<p>During last two years, Lehigh's total application pool went down by over 20%. just last year, it went down by 9%. During the same period, the acceptance rate moved from 28% (for the class of 2012) to 38% (for the class of 2014). The acceptance rate for the class of 2013 was 33%. </p>

<p>Predictably, there was a big decline of "enrolled students" SAT range between the class of 2012 and class of 2013. I assume that there is a further decline between the class of 2013 and the class of 2014. Ignore the stats the school provides for "ADMITTED STUDENTS" (this is not an accurate number for "ENROLLED STUDENTS" since many top students with more options choose to go elsewhere, and in general over 50-70 point difference for CR+M is common among top 30-70 range schools).</p>

<p>One can say, during the recession, private school application numbers may dip. However, even during the recession, many private schools with similar profile of Lehigh saw increasing applications and decreasing acceptance rates, and increasing SAT scores among the enrolled students.</p>

<p>In terms of the total application number, Lehigh is now below where they were in the admission season of 2004 - while many competitive schools have seen dramatic increase in applications during this time - some even close to 100% during this 5 year time frame.</p>

<p>I am a big spooked by this. What does this mean? Does it mean that Lehigh is loosing its appeal among top students? I firmly believe 80% of the academic experience is determined by the kind of peers my son will have - the caliber and motivation of his peers. </p>

<p>Given my son can apply to only one ED school, all things being equal, I would rather advise my son to go to a school that is on the rise - getting more attention from top caliber students and generating more excitement in the higher education community. So, if indeed Lehigh is losing its appeal among top students, this is a red flag.</p>

<p>At the same time, Lehigh sounds like a great school. If there is alternative explanations for the phenomenon I described above, I would like to hear them. Please share your thoughts and input. </p>

<p>Thank you for your reply in advance.</p>

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<p>The loss of interest of potential applicants may explain the statistics you site. The only way to know for sure is to do a statistical analysis amongst all high school applicants in the country to ascertain their sentiments.</p>

<p>Another potential dynamic at play might be that Lehigh is [signaling[/url</a>] to potential applicants an acceptance criteria that goes well beyond GPA/SAT/ACT stats. This criteria involves extending an invitation to join the ‘Lehigh community’ and potential candidates are then self-selecting themselves out of the process when they feel they can’t meet the criteria. As with your hypothesis, the only way to prove this would be with a survey amongst all potential applicants.</p>

<p>Here are a few items to consider in the ‘opt-out’ scenario posited:
[ul][li]If one does a search for the key words ‘show interest’ on the [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/lehigh-university/]Lehigh”>Lehigh University - College Confidential Forums]Lehigh</a> Forum](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)]signaling[/url”>Signalling (economics) - Wikipedia) the results will have a total of 55 threads that recommend this as a strategy for potential applicants. One way that interest is shown is by visiting the school. Some applicants may not want to expend the effort to visit and, having read this advice, see their chances diminished–resulting in fewer applications. </p>[/li]
<p>Coincindentally, the first thread with the ‘show interest’ strategy recommendation is from [2005[/url</a>].</p>

<p>[li]The [url=<a href=“http://www4.lehigh.edu/Media/Website%20Resources/pdf/admissions/LU_admissions_class2014_supplement8.pdf]supplement”>http://www4.lehigh.edu/Media/Website%20Resources/pdf/admissions/LU_admissions_class2014_supplement8.pdf]supplement</a> question](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/lehigh-university/131252-rd-chances-i-know-i-know.html?highlight=show+interest]2005[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/lehigh-university/131252-rd-chances-i-know-i-know.html?highlight=show+interest) on the application attempts to ascertain the candidate’s interest in joining the ‘Lehigh community’:[/li]

[li]One of the sticky threads for this forum, [What</a> Does Lehigh Look For? Thoughts on ‘Chances’](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/lehigh-university/763789-thoughts-chances.html]What”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/lehigh-university/763789-thoughts-chances.html), refers to the article ['The</a> Lucky ‘13s: A behind-the-scenes look at how Lehigh found just the right students for the Class of 2013.’](<a href=“http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/lehigh/alumni_2009fall/#/24]'The”>http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/lehigh/alumni_2009fall/#/24) The article provides a lot of insite into the rigorous admissions process:[/li]

Potential candidates reading this may feel that academic stats alone won’t result in an invitation to Lehigh and may be influenced to apply to other selective schools with less holistic admissions criteria.
[/ul]</p>

<p>The ‘Lehigh community’ is unique and has a very long tradition. To get a sense of it, watch [this</a> video](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d2SbI8shrY&feature=player_embedded]this”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d2SbI8shrY&feature=player_embedded) for the [‘50</a> year class adoption’](<a href=“Lehigh University News | Lehigh University”>Lehigh University News | Lehigh University) of the class of 2014 by the class of 1964.</p>

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<p>thanks for the reply. </p>

<p>I am still wondering…</p>

<p>If the application number has gone down due to the “self selection” of the potential applicants, their yield (% of those admitted who chose to enroll at Lehigh) should have gone up. Yet, during the period when their application number nose dived and the acceptance rate shoot up, their yield has also declined… So, I am still left scratching my head…</p>

<p>Anyone else care to comment???</p>

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<p>How does the decline in their total applications compare to other expensive private schools in the region?</p>

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<p>I did not to a thorough research on all schools in the region since most of them are not on my son’s potential list. But just based on some things I heard over last couple of years, I get a very clear impression that even during the recession, some expensive private schools have still seen nice increase in application numbers and decrease in the acceptance rate. Most of the top 20 schools have seen an increase in application number and decrease in the acceptance rate, not like Lehigh.</p>

<p>Expensive private schools in the DC area saw rather impressive gains in applications and pretty meaningful decrease in the acceptance rate (to the tune of ~10% in only a couple of years) as a result while the incoming freshmen average SAT went up meaningfully also .</p>

<p>I did note though that Bucknell University’s numbers have been going down for last few years. During last 3 years or so, Bucknell’s application number also went down by over 20%. </p>

<p>I am wondering whether the location (Bucknell and Lehigh) is an issue here - both PA schools in ather unexciting locations…</p>

<p>I am not saying these numbers should be the yardstick to judge the schools. But, IF these are indicators of the schools losing a mind share among top students, they are a cause for concern.</p>

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<p>You can’t equate Bucknell and Lehigh in term of “unexciting locations”. Bucknell is in a small town in Central PA. While the Lehigh Valley isn’t Boston, it is a pretty sophisticated million person metro area 80 miles from NYC and 60 miles from Philly. So I wouldn’t think that is a consideration in your analysis.</p>

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<p>I was wondering the same thing. I am currently planning to apply ED to lehigh, but this is a bit of a turn off. The engineering department will be well known regardless. I love lehigh, but should I be looking into schools such as rensselaer, which is on the rise?</p>

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<p>Alwaysbored, have you been to Troy? I’d take South Bethlehem and the Lehigh Valley ANY day.</p>

<p>I have no explanation for the drop in numbers – in fact, this comes as a surprise to me – but I do think that Chardo’s question about the numbers at peer institutions may hold the key. Private universities just outside of the elite schools were predicted to have largest drop in numbers after the economic downturn, and Lehigh fits into that group. (Elite private schools – HYPMS – have bigger endowments and therefore better financial aid. Top public universities are much less expensive than private schools and should show increased applications.) I don’t know whether the lower percentage for Lehigh is comparable at other schools, though.</p>

<p>I do know that Lehigh continues to have an excellent reputation, especially in the Northeast.</p>

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<p>I did not do a comprehensive research on this, but most of Lehigh’s peer institutions (only private schools) have either seen a great deal of application increase or modest increase or more or less held the number at/around the same level during last few years. </p>

<p>The schools I have in mind are, George Washington University, Brandeis, NYU, Boston University, Boston College, Fordham, Wake Forest U, University of Rochester, Case Western Reserve etc.</p>

<p>I have yet to see a school that has been seeing the application number going down by 20% or so during last couple of years. The only other example I saw was Bucknell, that’s why I was wondering if the location has anything to do with it. Certainly, DC, Boston, NYC etc would be more attractive to a lot of students. But then again, Wake Forest U has seen something like over 30% application jump during last few years. So, it’s not just the attraction of the likes of Boston, DC, and NYC.</p>

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<p>ROTCherewego, students applying to Lehigh (or not) have no more or less information than you do. You have to make your own decision by visiting the school, possibly speaking with students there now and coming to your own decision as to whether it’s the right fit. The fact that the herd is going one way or the other, based upon no more information than what you have at your disposal, should not dictate your choice. My son started at Lehigh this fall and he too was very interested in RPI. While Troy is not a great place he still would have selected RPI but was swayed by what subsequently saw and learned during his tour and information session at Lehigh. Having been there for several months he is very happy with the decision he made. In other words do what feels right for you.</p>

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<p>“Given my son can apply to only one ED school, all things being equal, I would rather advise my son to go to” — What you should say to him is - Not to apply ED to any school you are not 100% sure you want to attend. Because his opinion may change and he is now locked into attending only that school. He should and can apply to schools he likes EA and then he is maintaining his options for exploration and choice… (Not to mention the opportunity to compare FA offers)</p>

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<p>ROTCherewego – I suspect that at least part of the reason for the surge in applications at Wake Forest can be attributed to its adopting an SAT/ACT Optional policy a couple years back. Good North Carolina colleges, in general, have seen increased interest on the part of prospects from the Northeast over the past five years. </p>

<p>I wonder if part of Lehigh and Bucknell’s difficulty in attracting applicants recently has to do with the fact that neither school meets 100% of need (although they come close to it). Many of the schools that have seen growth in applications since the collapse of the housing market are need blind/100% of need schools.</p>

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<p>ROTCherewego, assuming that you are getting your data from the Common Data Set, with the exception of the class of 2014 statistics most likely obtained from the Lehigh website, I don’t think the data that you have analyzed presents any meaningful statistical trend. At the risk of researching “too much data” if you were to include two more years of CDS data, classes 2010 and 2011, you may conclude that 2012 was in fact an outlier. 2010, 2011 and 2013 all fall into what was described to me as the Lehigh and Bucknell third/third rule. Plus or minus 1/3 admittance with plus or minus 1/3 enrollment of those admitted. Actually, 2010 has the worst statistics of any of the four years.</p>

<p>The 38% admittance rate for the class of 2014 does, however, also fall outside of that range. The 31.5% enrollment for 2014 falls within recent historical norms. What to make of 38%? Perhaps it is because interest has waned among the statistically mediocre college shoppers who apply to many selective colleges with the hope that one college will admit. Afterall, why waste time on a couple of custom essays and pay another fee when a mandatory visit is out of the question? The Lehigh Supplement makes it very clear that interest in Lehigh is of paramount importance to the admissions office. It is quite well known to those interested in Lehigh that this is a fact. </p>

<p>The top number on the 50% SAT range is 50 pts below the recent average for the class of 2013 data. The bottom number is at or near the average. Again, we are looking at one year out of four. I am excluding 2014 because I do not know where to obtain that data. You assumed that the lower SAT trend would continue into 2014 but I don’t think that one year of data establishes a trend. </p>

<p>My gut feeling is that the admissions office is making some kind of effort to reinforce the fact to the public that demonstrated interest in Lehigh is very important. I don’t know how that would statistically play out with the college shoppers and also Lehigh’s desire to shed the “Ivy Safety” moniker. I do also believe that we would have to engage the services of a top notch economist to explain all of the yearly statistical data. I do not, however, think that any trend has been established nor do I think that there has been any mass exodus of talented applicants to Lehigh.</p>

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<p>first of all, I am NOT bashing Lehigh. The reason why I raised this issue was, my son was considering ED, we needed to make sure that this is indeed THE SCHOOL to go to. If he was doing RD, I would say, why not apply. We can decide later among other schools that accepted him.</p>

<p>This is not the first time we are going through this. We had experience with other kids. So, I am fairly familiar with the recent admissions trends (last few years).</p>

<p>You are saying the application surge for the Lehigh class of 2012 was an outlier and should not a baseline to show that the current number declined significantly. Actually no. WIth the introduction of common app, etc, the application number has gone up rather significantly for all major schools within top 50 or 100. Surge of application up until the class of 2012 was actually a fairly common occurrence. After the economic meltdown, schools with staying power still saw their application numbers rising, some actually significantly. Most (not all) of the top 50-70 schools either saw a continuing rise of their application numbers or at the least maintained a similar level of application. </p>

<p>So,the fact that Lehigh saw a precipitous decline in application numbers, a significant decline in top 25% SAT marker (50 points is HUGE), a decline in yield after the economic meltdown really begs the question: does Lehigh have a staying power and able to continue to get a good mind share among top, competitive students or not? If any one of the above occurrence was in isolation, may that’s aberration. All a decline in all three key indices is a different story. In my experience, eventually, the quality of the students also start to affect the quality of the faculty, not immediately, but on a long term basis. </p>

<p>You talked about self selection effect, the requirements for “showing interest in Lehigh”, etc. Are you saying that this tradition is only 2 years old??? If that tradition has been around at least last 10 years, why is this suddenly a factor to explain such a precipitous decline in top students’ interest in Lehigh.</p>

<p>By the way, the above post is your first post in CC. Are you working in Lehigh Admissions Office? You are referring to CDS on the Lehigh web site etc that most people are not familiar with. If not, my apologies. Maybe I read one too many conspiracy theory books. I hope Lehigh does NOT decide to remove all the links for their past Common Data Set fact sheet that gave all this information in a very honest manner. </p>

<p>My son still has not decided whether to submit ED to Lehigh or its academic peers. We are still researching. I don’t think he has a prayer for RD acceptance. His stats are already at above the top 25% of the enrolled student level (class of 2013, the most recent available data). But his is an Over Represented Minority from a upper middle class family in the immediate region (PA/NJ/NY). And he is not a legacy, while 16% of Lehigh’s incoming class is legacy students. Not an athlete. As such, ED would have been his avenue. That’s why I am asking all these questions.</p>

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<p>I think you should assume that all your stats and the conclusions that you’ve drawn are all correct and on that basis counsel your child whether he or she should apply. Alternatively, you can visit, observe, speak with people at Lehigh (they’re very approachable), both students and administration, speak with the guidance counselor at your child’s school and make your own decision based upon first hand information rather than attempting to deduce information based upon statistics.</p>

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<p>First, I think it’s a huge mistake to decide an ED school on the basis of whether it is “hot” or not. Next, your son needs to decide whether it’s a good fit academically and personally for him. You won’t be attending college yourself, so you really need to listen to him about where he feels the best fit. I don’t know if you intend this, but it sounds as though YOU are determining where he will apply ED. This could cause major problems if the two of you aren’t in agreement; he’ll be destined to be unhappy wherever he goes.</p>

<p>I’ve heard that Lehigh has unofficially decided to de-emphasis SAT scores. Now, this could just be a rumor, but given the stats you present, perhaps it isn’t. They may have decided to use GPA, leadership/ECs, and essays to distinguish “Lehigh material” from the rest, with SAT scores a much smaller part of the package. Despite the best efforts of the College Board, the SAT still favors male students over female, whites and Asians over African-Americans and Latinos, and high income students over low income students. Lehigh seems to be making a concerted effort to attract more women, minorities, first generation students, and, to a lesser degree, low-income students. This attempt to diversify improves the educational environment for all, but it has the disadvantage of appearing to accept “lesser” students when really different metrics are used to evaluate the best and the brightest. Just a thought . . . .</p>

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<p>ROTCherwego, I find your screen name intriguing. My son went through the ROTC application process a year ago and, for safety’s sake, we didn’t box ourselves into an ED college app. There was always the possibility that the scholarship and the admission wouldn’t match up. </p>

<p>Such a problem is surmountable. But we chose not to temp fate and stuck with EA or RD only. YMMV, but you may want to consider the ROTC/ED consequences as your son proceeds along separate paths that may not intersect for several months.</p>

<p>BTW, my son attends Wake Forest, which was also his high-match/low reach school. We found that the Recruiting Operations Officer (ROO) there became an admissions advocate for Son while he was “on the bubble.” Happy ending; he’s a student and a cadet exactly where he wants to be.</p>

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<p>“I’ve heard that Lehigh has unofficially decided to de-emphasis SAT scores.”</p>

<p>no vested interest here, but I actually just met someone who attended a local info session this week…if that is any indication, they are definitely NOT de-emphasizing SAT/ACT scores…in fact, this person mentioned that they really “harped” on the point that they really want high scores…actually repeated it a couple of times…</p>

<p>unless they “didn’t get the memo”…if you know what I mean…</p>

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<p>dougbetsy,</p>

<p>actually, that screen name was initially chosen when my son was considering the ROTC route. Since then he changed his mind, but I am stuck with the old screen name.</p>

<p>Like being stuck with your ex girfriend’s name tatooed on your chest :)</p>

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<p>this is news to me. Check the Common Data Set for Lehigh - this is data set the school itself supplies. They indicate that “SAT/ACT scores are important. GPA and class rankings are considered” </p>

<p>NO. I am NOT choosing where my son applies to ED. He has a few candidate schools, and is thinking about a variety of issues. I am like a consumer report for him. I supply some additional data for him to consider. And, one of the additional input points happens to be the “sustainable staying power of the schools in their ability to continue to attract top tier students”. Why should he, in 20 years, have an alma mater that is in decline? Other things being equal,wouldn’t he better off to be part of a very vibrant alma mater community? Again, this should NOT be the only reason to pick or not pick a school. This is just ONE of the data points he would be considering. </p>

<p>It’s up to him ultimately where he applies based on all the available data. I am just helping him make a decision based on as much data as possible. He has about 10 days to decide. </p>

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<p>This does not surprise me. If indeed the trend I noticed is afoot, this spooks the admissions officers greatly, and they will want to make sure that it does not become a starting point of a downward spiral. (for instance, losing 50 SAT CR+M points for the top 25% marker is not an encouraging signal). Note: no school does a press release when their enrolled students scores dip, while they have a big ado about scores climbing as a sign that the schools is getting popular among the top students.</p>