<p>I don't feel that I'm "too good" for Michigan, u can't say that at any school. This is flame. I think a good way to summarize this university is that it sets the bar high, but fails to provide the means to achieve it.</p>
<p>In my four years at Michigan, I honestly can't remember meeting anyone that tediously *****ed and moaned like the kids who are posting here (thank god). We were all too busy having a great UDG experience. Sure, we all recognized there were problems and flaws in the system. Obviously, there's no perfect organization out there. Despite what you may think, your fellow students aren't just a bunch of Go Blue Rah, Rah's...afraid, insecure, arrogant, inferior...whatever. Perhaps they've just developed a more mature, positive, realistic outlook, or are more down-to-earth and wouldn't flaunt their amazing wisdom on CC, or anywhere else for that matter. More street smarts to book smarts? Rather than posting here in order to save the world, chill out, lighten up, and try to fully enjoy this moment in your life. Michigan is utopia compared to what you'll experience out in the real world. But, if you just can't warm up to the place, get out and move on. Don't simply endure these four years and think, "what if...?" This is your only opportunity to be an undergraduate student. Go where you think you'll be happy and your brainpower will be appreciated.</p>
<p>I post here because when I was in high school, this website was beyond helpful. If people ask for my honest opinions and perceptions..then that's what they'll get. Take it for what its worth. But what I can't fathom is this blind "Michigan is better than everything" allegiance to a school that isn't all that its cracked up to be. I'm sorry....but its neither true nor credible. And people who tell high schoolers that this school is AMAZING do them a disservice.</p>
<p>My position (which I swear I've stated 10 times in the last 2 days) is that Michigan is a solid school. But at the same time, it has serious deficiencies that every person should take into account before enrolling. Now, if you don't think that people should look at the negatives of a school before applying/enrolling, that's your perogative. </p>
<p>
[quote]
This is your only opportunity to be an undergraduate student. Go where you think you'll be happy and your brainpower will be appreciated.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Good advice that should be heeded BEFORE matriculating...not after.</p>
<p>I read what these kids say about brainpower and they have no clue. They are going to be shocked when they enter the real world and find people more successful than they are with fewer "brains".</p>
<p>My daughter goes to Michigan OOS, first choice, and thinks the school is great.</p>
<p>dstark, i tell my parents michigan is great as well.</p>
<p>this might be false, please don't get offended alexandre if there is wrong. But, I get the sense that Alexandre is one of those people didn't like Michigan at first, talked himself out of the dislike for Michigan and now that he has graduated, he's trying to make people goto Michigan so Michigan can rise in rankings.</p>
<p>let's refrain from speculating as to people's motives</p>
<p>GoBlueAlumMom,
Some of us don't have the chance to transfer, u make it seem like we are being pessimistic and whining, we spent our large sum of OOS tuition on this University, and I'm not thrilled about what I'm getting. I am obviously not alone in this, many OOS students i've met have said that its a ripoff. my teammates have laughed at how i pay OOS tuition here. Put yourself in my shoes and see how u would feel.</p>
<p>People should transfer if they aren't happy. There are many schools out there. </p>
<p>I think the advising is poor at the school.</p>
<p>I'd like to see it easier to get into some classes. </p>
<p>You can learn form all types of people...even people with SAT scores of 850.
Intelligence is going to be measured differently in the real world than colleges.
Maybe somebody struggles in math, but that person may know a lot more about different cultures than somebody else, or be a better musician, artist, athlete, etc.</p>
<p>I find the campus and surrounding area amazing with so much to do if you like sports, music, the arts, etc. Students are going to miss this some day. </p>
<p>You can take grad courses as an undergrad (even as a freshman). </p>
<p>The weather sucks.</p>
<p>The school is brutally expensive. Most top schools are.</p>
<p>You are partially correct Jeffl. I did not like my first year at Michigan. I wasn't too crazy about Michigan my second year either. But I loved my third and fourth year at Michigan. I did not talk myself out of anything. I was merely homesick and found the academics too challenging. And I have no dillusions about improving Michigan's rankings.</p>
<p>Hey Kids--Did you happen to see this recent post by another CC student? This might help put the discussion on this thread into perspective. The OP's step-dad has just been deployed to Iraq: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=126796%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=126796</a></p>
<p>Alexandre, I think you should flag this thread if possible because it provides a very interesting range of perspectives. </p>
<p>First and foremost, we are not "*****ing and moaning" as one mother has claimed. I made refutations of any claims that I personally felt did not reflect my view or the views of many undergraduates I have spoken to. I do think this school has many wonderful things to offer and yes, Michigan is an incredibly humbling and exciting experience no matter what your SAT scores or class rank was in high school. To all of those posters who have claimed that the students posting here have no concept of the real world, it's quite evident to me that virtually every student posting on this forum knows how tough the real world is and appreciates the great opportunity we're getting. We're all incredibly fortunate that the biggest concerns in our lives revolve around relatively trivial things like curves and grade inflation. </p>
<p>jeffl and kb described the common plights of the OOS student. When I made my decision, I received a substantial amount of scholarship money to attend the university. I felt as if I would pay much more to get the same education at Cornell and I didn't feel as if Brown or Penn would give me that much more mileage in terms of grad school admissions. I do see now though how nice it would have been to learn in a smaller undergraduate setting and feel that if you're not getting a lot of money to deal with bureaucratic bs, your money would be far better spent at a place where you'll actually feel as if you're getting what you're paying for. Also, none of us think we're too good for this place, UMRunner08. There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve this place so that all undergrads would have a betetr academic experience.</p>
<p>I've also noticed a great emphasis on "street smarts" in this thread. Um, any school can teach you street smarts as long as you're willing to socialize and there's a fair amount of diversity. Most people who don't have them when they leave college learn them very quickly when they don't interview for jobs well or have trouble with their co-workers. Never have I seen a group of alums get so defensive and dismissive about intellectual capacity and its development, the primary goal of most students and educators top schools.</p>
<p>My question after all of this is how none of you can actually defend the points some posters have been making about Michigan's lack of undergraduate focus and poor treatment of arts and science undergrads by directly addressing those points. You're simply attacking people who are not toeing the line. At least Alexandre tried to find some defense that was relevant.</p>
<p>Alexandre, you claim that "large research universities" don't have undergraduate focus. Do you mean large in size or "large" in terms of output in quality? If you say large in size and quality, then you're probably right. Berkeley, UCLA, Wisconsin, Illinois and Cornell all fit that mold to some extent. Most out-of-staters at those schools are there because they all have really focused undergraduate programs that outrank virtually every other private school in areas such as engineering, computer science, chemistry or mathematics. Michigan LS&A doesn't, though. So I can still say that if you want to study one of those fields, it's probably worth the hell of 4 years in Urbana-Champaign to get that computer science degree. I wouldn't say so otherwise.</p>
<p>I would completely disagree if you mean "large" in terms of quality, however. Notice how Stanford and Princeton consistently rank at the top in terms of undergraduate experience on many polls. I would say their research output has probably changed the face of the world as well. I think you either have to define "large" or only compare Michigan to similar institutions like the other public ivies. To compare Michigan to the top research Ivies is to make invalid comparisons.</p>
<p>I conclude that Michigan LS&A should be avoided. To all of those who are specializing in business, engineering or music, this school is quite good for undergrad. Go to state schools as an OOS only if you're thinking of attending one of their specialized programs.</p>
<p>hoedown, peer regard will not be relevant to most of these posters until they're considering graduate admissions. Peer ratings are how professors at other institutions think of the University of Michigan. Our faculty is quite superb in many areas. Since research and grant money is so heavily emphasized in keeping departments and reputations afloat in the academic world, Michigan gets a very high peer rating because our professors do put out top-quality research and get lots of money in many fields. That really doesn't say much about undergraduate education quality.</p>
<p>Michigan ranks 22nd in the listing of undergraduate rankings in USNews. I think that's probably one of the few fair assessments of undergraduate institutions on that list.</p>
<p>GoBlueAlumMom, that is a very sad thread. I'm actually very insulted that you would think to use such a tragedy as the Iraq war to put things such as college rankings into perspective. I know your intentions were good. Maybe you should have put a thread about how some kid couldn't afford college instead. You're using something completely disproportionate to what's being discussed here to make a point, however. You're also severely discrediting the empathy, good sense and the logic of the posters here. We are discussing the relative merits of a college on this thread and yes, people will point out things that displease them because we are discussing relative merits. We all know damn well how lucky we are to have such minor complaints and such a good education and we hope to prevent such horrible things from happening again through our education. So don't think that we think that poor undergraduate focus is a sin akin to thousands of lives lost based on lies. That's why the student posters and the moderator on this thread have been trying to use statistics and informed opinions rather than appealing to emotion like the alumni here. Bad things happen when you're deluding lucky high school seniors or sending unlucky ones off to war based on lack of objectivity and reasoning. If this comparison offends you, I'm relieved. Your post should now offend you, as well. </p>
<p>I thought this student body's sense of rational social justice, which I think is absolutely beautiful, would have made a bigger impression on some of its alumni. Sad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
hoedown, peer regard will not be relevant to most of these posters until they're considering graduate admissions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I make no claims as to the value of that rating. I merely pointed out Alexandre's source after you suggested he made it up (or was wrong). Perhaps your comment would be better directed to Alexandre.</p>
<p>Yeah, you're right. He just needs to stop throwing the wrong statistics at the wrong crowd.</p>
<p>whoa.......I'm supposed to like Michigan better cause some kid's dad got sent to Iraq? That's beyond the pale. You owe an apology to that kid for using her father in an effort to score cheap points.</p>
<p>I've been reading this thread for a little bit now, and I have come away with mixed feelings, some of which I had before anyways. I think, for an instate student, Michigan is a GREAT bargain for the quality of education it gives. I feel very fortunate to be instate, and understand how OOS students feel. You pay so much money and come to a public school where you feel it wasn't worth it after all. Yes, there are great things about Michigan as well as bad things, but many colleges have their own unique problems. Michigan has never had a strong focus on undergraduate education, and I agree that LSA isn't treated as well as the other schools. However, it seems like the people complaining could have done better at an LAC, as Alexandre was mentioning, because your main complaint was the lack of attention, right? LACs pride themselves on focusing on undergrads and better counseling. Or, you may have looked into some stellar research universities that also have a good focus on undergrads like Rice University, University of Rochester, etc. </p>
<p>See this is the thing. Not only is Michigan a research university, which means they focus more on research than education, it's also a public university AND is a very large university. These three factors are like a one-two-three punch; I can see why some UM students don't care for some parts of their undergrad experience. But, from what I've heard, Michigan is a good place to be after the first two years, so many have suggested to instate students to go to a community college or a branch campus of U-M like U-M Dearborn or U-M Flint where advising and size is better, then transfer to Ann Arbor after two years. That way you get the best of both worlds, and save a good deal of change. </p>
<p>All of what you guys have said has been told time and time again, and many in-state students who got into Michigan (who I know) have said the same things i.e. its too impersonal, its too big, I'd rather go to U-M Dearborn and transfer. But, if you're not willing to do that like me, I have looked into the Michigan Learning Communities, which provide a more focused, personal experience for undergrads. For example, if you're really into German, you could live in the Max Kade Residence Community. Or perhaps you're into research? You could live in the MRC (Michigan Research Community/UROP). There's definitely no hand-holding at U-M Ann Arbor, something that may be a GOOD thing for some folks. </p>
<p>I would say there are many ways to "make a big university small" but you really can't "make a small university big". There are many opportunities out there for Michigan pre-frosh to check out to make their experience more personal. Thanks for expressing your views on your experiences so far, MichWoman, Jeffl, and kb, as I am sure they will help some admitted students make the best choice for themselves. However, I would personally recommend all accepted U-M students to check out the following links for the MLCs, which I find to be a good way to make U-M more personal:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.lsa.umich.edu/mlc/%5B/url%5D">http://www.lsa.umich.edu/mlc/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lhsp/%5B/url%5D">http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lhsp/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.umich.edu/%7Echeever/%5B/url%5D">http://www.umich.edu/~cheever/</a></p>
<p>Also, the Honors program is an excellent, challenging place to be, but it's not for everyone as MichWoman has attested. Perhaps the size of the Honors program is a detractor as to why the counseling is not as good? Perhaps you could go into more detail about why you didnt' feel the Honors program lived up to your expectations? From most people I've heard from that program, they say its an amazing and challenging place to be, and helps greatly in graduate school or job placement. That's why I was wondering about your comments.</p>
<p>I don't get it. 2 of the people with the biggest problems with the school are at Michigan on scholarships. </p>
<p>My nephew is at Stanford and he has never talked to an advisor. What are you people thinking?</p>
<p>My daughter has been invited to a professor's house. She has been shown around two different departments, one by a professor, as they show her the pros and cons of those majors. </p>
<p>She has had access to everyone of her professors, and she is not the greatest student in the world. </p>
<p>She just finished a class with a professor from MIT who she thought was a genius. </p>
<p>Michigan is a school. Like I said, to those that complain, go find a better one.</p>
<p>kb54010, the school gave you a scholarship. Did those "other schools" give you a scholarship?</p>
<p>Michwoman, you were going to get a different experience at Brown or Swarthmore than Michigan and maybe that experience would have been better for you. Sorry it hasn't worked out for you.</p>
<p>First off dstark, I hope you realize that anecdotes don't prove anything. They do suggest things though.</p>
<p>For example,
[quote]
My nephew is at Stanford and he has never talked to an advisor.
[/quote]
suggests that your nephew either hasn't had the need or is too lazy to talk to an advisor. The only real reasons people don't see advisors here is because sometimes you have to make an appointment WEEKS in advance. But my personal favorite is the month's wait that is possible up at UHS lol.... Is this the case at Stanford? Are the stanford advising people being swamped by that whopping 6,500 person student body????????</p>
<p>stanford_dude....i'm sore that you forgot to include the residential college in your rundown of MLC, but I agree with your original point. MLC's are a GREAT way to make UM a better place for disgruntled OOS undergrad's. If i weren't in the RC...omg....I don't even want to think about it.</p>
<p>As for me, I looked into schools like WashU, Dartmouth etc. but UM gave me the money. It wasn't like I choose UM on its merits; I choose it on its giving me lots of scholarship. Regardless; I still think about what it'd be like if my parents and I were paying for UM. If that were the case, its very likely that I'd be looking at transfer options. I tend to agree that for an in-state student, UM is a good deal. It costs about as much as Illinois does, but it has a better reputation. But when you're OOS and the schools gets up into the Ivy League price range, the value comes into question.</p>