<p>Absolutely zero.</p>
<p>The University of Michigan's medical complex is huge. It is perenially ranked among the top 10 hospitals in the nation. And with the new Life-Sciences initiatives and the purchase of the Pfizer Campus, it is only going to strengthen its position. Finally, Ann Arbor has been a Medical center for decades. There is no way the Medical school is going to move.</p>
<p>MSU also has a school of osteopathic medicine on campus. That will not be moving out of the city. They are even expanding into the Detroit area.</p>
<p>I was surprise to know that a school would have it's headquaters off the main campus, and since I'm now introduced that it is done with top schools. Why wouldn't University of Michigan- Ann Arbor wan't to have their headquaters in Lansing (Don't wan't my hometown to become a dump). Since UofM-Ann Arbor medical school is very high rank, being right in the middle of Michigan gives decent emergency distance to all locations in the state.
Yeah I know MSU has a school of osteopathic medicine, although it's not a large field like medical school... nor attract people as a human medicine school.
With places like this, location location location is a factor.</p>
<p>With those kind of brilliant ideas, I think you would be better off at MSU.</p>
<p>"I was surprise to know that a school would have it's headquaters off the main campus, and since I'm now introduced that it is done with top schools."</p>
<p>Coolbreeze, I am not sure I understand your point. Most elite Medical programs' (Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Michigan, Duke, Stanford, Penn, WUSTL, Columbia, Yale, UCSF, UDub, UCLA, Chicago, NYU, Northwestern, Baylor etc...) medical facilities are located within 10 miles from their own central campus. The only exception to that rule among top Medical schools that I can think of is Cornell. </p>
<p>"Why wouldn't University of Michigan- Ann Arbor wan't to have their headquaters in Lansing"</p>
<p>What is wrong with you man?! LOL! The University of Michigan is in Ann Arbor. Why on Earth would it wish to relocate any part of its campus to Lansing? Besides, Ann Arbor is a more desirable city than Lansing. A2 is ranked among the top places to live in by most publications. Moving to Lansing would lower its profile and make it much harder to recruit faculty.</p>
<p>I'm sure Coolbreeze is just playing with all of you. I believe that MSU will keep its human medicine college also in E. Lansing. I believe it's only a branch that they are opening in Grand Rapids. Remember too Coolbreeze that MSU has a law school courtesy of the Detroit College of Law. Guess where they moved from?</p>
<p>I must say that I almost punched a hole in my computer monitor after reading this: "Why wouldn't University of Michigan- Ann Arbor wan't to have their headquaters in Lansing"</p>
<p>Yeah, I didn't think my question would cause that many stirs. I was just wondering if UofM-Ann Arbor would ever consider to have their headquaters in Lansing, like MSU's in Grand Rapids.
Dilksy, I don't understand what you mean. Although I probably wouldn't want to.</p>
<p>Yes. Admissions comitee do not obey the deadlines while giving out the decisions.</p>
<p>Alexandre -</p>
<p>Do you have more info about the Pfizer Campus, its function, etc?</p>
<p>One weak point where UofM can improve is the April 15th timeframe for admissions decisions of undergrad deferrals. As much as I like Michigan, that just builds a lot of angst and keeps Fall rolling admission applicants waiting and waiting and waiting......</p>
<p>I only read about the first 5 pages (this is WAY too long).
Some comments. </p>
<p>Detroit is a declining city and that will harm UM quite a bit. </p>
<p>Its Law School is NOT and I repeat NOT #2 in any ranking I've seen. Yes, Michigan was ONCE an elite law school in the top 5(like 20 years ago), but the faculty has "deteriorated over the years". The top elite law schools in today's law world are Yale (always #1), Harvard Law, Columbia Law, U Chicago law (underrated law school among the elites), Stanford Law (best of the West) and NYU. UM is no longer in that category.</p>
<p>Its Med School is improving, but it will probably constantly be a #3 med school (very good, but not elite) among publics. UW Seattle is known as the powerhouse (better than Ivies) of the primary school (#1 ranking for 15 years in USNR accounts for something) with a top 10 ranking in all the fields. In terms of Med Research, I don't see UM surpassing UC San Francisco and it'll be lucky to surpass Stanford and UW Seattle. </p>
<p>UM's tuition is ridiculous. I know its a prestigious school that is underrated by the stupid USNR rankings (very private school biased methodology), but its tuition is way ahead of the other public schools. Even UC Berkeley is cheaper by a considerable margin (which is the only public school that I consider a superior option). For me, I would have gone here if it weren't for the OMFG tuition that blew away my other option's tuitions. </p>
<p>For anyone out there that think I'm criticizing UM, I'm not. I'm just stating the facts and correcting any exaggerated fan-hype. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I do agree that it's a great school. Its international prestige is greatly understated as evidenced by the 3 most prominent international rankings. Newsweek International (most prominent US international rank) ranked it 11. THES (most prominent, but still heavily flawed British rank) ranked it 18. ARWU(overall most prominent of the 3 rankings created from China) ranked it 21. Overall, in a compilation of the 3 most prominent rankings, UM ranked #14 internationallyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rankings.PNG.</p>
<p>The University has ever been terribly dependent on Detroit, and it's not as if Detroit suddenly fell off a cliff into despair; things have been fairly bad for a long time now. I don't think people really ever came here to get inside connections to the Detroit job market (at least not in the past 30ish years), like people would go to Notre Dame/Northwestern for Chicago, NYU/Columbia for New York City, UCLA/UCB for Silicon valley, etc.</p>
<p>ahsie, I agree with much of what you say, but I think you are off on a couple of points:</p>
<p>1) Michigan Law is still among the very elite. It has never left that top group of Law schools. It is generally considered equal to Cal, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn and UVa Law. Traditionally, Michigan Law, along with Harvard and Yale, was ranked among the top 3 in the nation. As you correctly pointed out, Michigan Law's faculty did in fact deteriorate in the late 80s and 90s, but Michigan Law is now making strides and solidifying its place among the elite Law schools in the land. Today, the top 3 Law schools in the land are Harvard, Stanford and Yale. Michigan Law is in the next sub-tier, ranked between 4 and 10 in the nation. This can be seen in the major Law firms recruiting law students on campuses, starting salaries, Bar passage rates and most of all, Peer Assessment scores among Judges and Legal Scholars. Among those in the know, and we are talking about experts in a highly specialized field now, Michigan Law gets a similar PA as Cal, Chicago, Columbia and NYU. Companies seem to agree with the PA rankings, with Top Law firm recruitment activities on the Michigan campus exceeding those of all other law schools save only three. Given its historic and traditional reputation, huge endowment and gorgeous facilities, Michigan Law should remain among the top 10 in the country. </p>
<p>ASSESSMENT SCORE ACCORDING TO LAWYERS/JUDGES:
Columbia: 4.7/5.0
Chicago: 4.6/5.0
Michigan: 4.6/5.0
UVa: 4.6/5.0
Cal-Boalt: 4.5/5.0
NYU: 4.5/5.0
Penn: 4.4/5.0</p>
<p>ASSESSMENT SCORE ACCORDING TO LEGAL SCHOLARS:
Columbia: 4.7/5.0
Chicago: 4.6/5.0
Cal-Boalt: 4.5/5.0
Michigan: 4.5/5.0
NYU: 4.5/5.0
UVa: 4.4/5.0
Penn: 4.3</p>
<p>And out of respect to other awesome Law schools (Cornell, Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern), it should be mentioned that there is generally no perceived difference between the top 13-14 Law schools in the nation. </p>
<p>2) As for Medical schools, I don't think it is possible to rank schools that easily. Generally speaking, Michigan medical school is considered to be among the top 10 in the nation, equal to Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Penn, Stanford, UCLA, UCSF, UWashington and Yale. Among public universities, Michigan Medical school is ranked among the top 4 (the other 3 being UCSF, UCLA and UDub). Yes, some of those schools are better than others, but the differences are very minute and insignificant. With its huge endowment and the recent purchase of the Pfizer Research campus, Michigan Medical will remain among the top 10 nationally for the foreseeable future. The only Medical schools that are considered superior are JHU and Harvard.</p>
<p>3) Michigan is not more expensive than Cal. In terms of tuition alone, yes, Michigan is slightly more expensive. But do not forget that students must be housed and fed. Cal costs over $45,000/year for out of staters. Michigan costs slightly less. And UCLA and UVa aren't notably cheaper either. That's the price you pay for attending an elite university. Now I agree that top universities are expensive. That is not only Michigan's failing. Schools like Cal, Columbia, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn, UCLA, UVa etc... are all extremely expensive. It so happens that some people are willing to pay $55,000/year to attend a private university, but when it comes to paying $40,000-$45,000 to attend a public university, even if the quality between the public and private is debatable, they will automatically object. I suspect it is due to a deep-seeded prejudice which is not based on any tangible and real factor.</p>
<p>4) Finally, the University of Michigan does not depend on Detroit for much. Currently, the entire state of Michigan provides less than 8% of the University's operating budget. The University of Michigan generates the remaining 92%+ on its own. And most companies recruiting on campus are from the East or West Coast. Obviously, it would be nice if Detroit could improve its economic propsects (and it will over time), but for now, the University of Michigan is fine on its own.</p>
<p>Look, I'm not dissing UM or anything because ALL of its school are still annual top 10ers, but elite is within top 5 or sometimes smaller in the case of Med School or Engineering. And frankly speaking, there IS a difference between elite and extremely good. e.g., In engineering, UM is I think #9 or something. I know it's 5-10. University of Illinois is #4, yet their reputation are quite far away among engineers outside of the US. Engineers in Japan and Singapore (big corporations) see Illinois in equal level to Cal Tech and MIT, yet anything else falls short as "another level" even if that level is still in the top 10 like Michigan. </p>
<p>UM's Law in the past was at this "elite" level, but has fallen short in recent years(as in not an annual top 5 anymore). The elite level is now Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, and Chicago(most underrated one). Anything else is not "elite" even if Michigan is still within the top 10. Yes, I know lawyers generally talk about the top 14 (comprised of Duke, Northwestern, Cal Berkeley, UM, etc), but elite is something even more specific that gives you more prestige than the general top 14. </p>
<p>Med school is the same case. It's an annual top 10, but not elite. The big 3 elite med schools are Harvard, John Hopkins, and UW. Harvard tops every medical research ranking I've ever seen and is top 3 for primary care. John Hopkins usually floats in the top 3 for both. UW's med research is a bit weaker at around 4-6, but it can be categorized as elite because it has the best primary med school, which is technically the med school for practitioners, for 15 YEARS STRAIGHT and also the ONLY med school with all 8 specialties in the top 10. After that, you get a set of top 10ers like Stanford and Wash U at the top followed by the group you mentioned with UM in it.</p>
<p>You have to realize, going to a top 10er is EXTREMELY good, but there is a difference in between the elites and top 10ers. It's the difference of U Chicago is to UM in law, UW is to UM in med(among publics, it's UW, UCSF, UM, then UCLA with a clear difference but all extremely respectable), and Illinois is to UM in engineering. It's also the clear difference in prestige among the professions. My dentist has 2 sons who went to Baylor College of Medicine (10-15) and UM Med(5-10), and she clearly knows UW is superior with a clear line drawn. My dad is an international chem engineer for 30 years and the name of Illinois brings instant recognition that is equal to MIT and Cal Tech (something UM is not quite in). Among lawyers, there is a CLEAR difference between U Chicago, which is recognized as a law school second only Yale in education, and UM that has fallen out of that elite category. For law schools, I believe Brian Leiter gives good stuff and it's worth a read. You can instantly recognize from his tone that UM is something below the elite (again, still extremely good). </p>
<p>Unless I read the wrong thing from collegeboard, UM's tuition is almost 9K more expensive than UC Berkeley for OOS. The last time I checked, UM was in the mid 30Ks (the only public school in that range from my memory) while UC Berkeley was 26K. Of course, I'm now only talking about tuition and excluding living expenses because San Francisco is really expensive.</p>
<p>Yes, UM is rather independent, but Detroit will still in someway affect UM because Detroit is the main city of Michigan (linking directly to the public fundings). But yes, UM will still land you really prestigious jobs anywhere.</p>
<p>I know you aren't dissing Michigan. It is clear that you respect the University. I just think that your analysis is a little off. I noticed that you rely entirely on the USNWR graduate ranking to com to your conclusions. </p>
<p>In my extensive experience (universities have been my life for the last 15 years), here's where Michigan is rated in the eyes of experts in the following professions:</p>
<p>1) Business:
Typically, at the BBA level, only Wharton has a appreciable edge over Ross. At the MBA level, Wharton is joined by HBS, Kellogg and Stanford. Michigan's BBA program is ranked anywhere between #2 and #6 and Michigan's MBA program is ranked anywhere between #5 and #10. Very few recruiters will rank Ross our of the top 5 or 6 MBA programs. </p>
<p>2) Engineering:
The top 4 Engineering programs in the nation are Cal, Caltech, MIT and Stanford. Michigan is generally regarded as one of the next 4 or 5 programs. I am not sure who told you that UIUC is more highly regarded in Engineering. That just isn't the case. UIUC is large, but it is not better. Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, Georgia Tech and UIUC are all equal to Michigan in Enigneering.</p>
<p>3) Law
Lawyers/Recruiters and Scholars do not merely rank Michigan among the top 14. This year, they rated Michigan Law #6 in US. Harvard, Yale, Stanford and Columbia were ranked higher. Cal, Chicago, Michigan, NYU and UVa were next, all rated within 0.1 point of each other. All of those law schools are elite. If you are going to say that Michigan is not elite, you cannot say that NYU or Chicago are...unless you believe to be more qualified to rate Law schools than major Law firm recruiters, Lawyers and Legal Scholars.</p>
<p>4) Medicine
In this case, I partially agree with you. I agree that Harvard and JHU are in a leage of their own. UDub is not. So if you believe only the top 2 or 3 Medical schools are elite, then yes, Michigan is not elite. But that would leave a lot of exceptional Medical schools (such as Penn, Duke, Michigan, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, UCSF and WUSTL) out in the cold. </p>
<p>In all four major professional fields, if you are to include more than the top 3 or 4 programs, Michigan is elite. Of course, if by "elite", you mean just the top 3 or 4 programs in each profesional field, Michigan will not be elite in any of the four professional disciplines. However, neither would UDub in Medicine, UIUC in Engineering or NYU and Chicago in Law. </p>
<p>As far as cost, like I said, tuition on its own is meaningless. But even if you look purely at tuition, Cal is not $9k cheaper than Michigan. It is more like $4k cheaper. For the 2008-2009 academic year, Michigan tuition will be $33,000, compared to $29,000 at Cal. But Room and Board at Michigan will be $9,000, compared to $14,000 at Cal. Students must be housed and fed. Cal is more expensive than Michigan. UCLA, UCSC and UVa aren't much cheaper than Michigan either. And all of those schools, given their ***** academics, are a bargain compared to their private peers.</p>
<p>Top</a> 500 Ranked Universities for Highest Total Cost of attendance</p>
<p>Registration</a> Fees - Office Of The Registrar</p>
<p>Living</a> at Cal - Rates</p>
<p>University</a> of Michigan Office of Financial Aid: Cost of Attendance</p>
<p>Note that Michigan's total figures above includes books and miscelaneous costs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
there IS a difference between elite and extremely good. e.g., In engineering, UM is I think #9 or something. I know it's 5-10. University of Illinois is #4, yet their reputation are quite far away among engineers outside of the US. Engineers in Japan and Singapore (big corporations) see Illinois in equal level to Cal Tech and MIT, yet anything else falls short as "another level" even if that level is still in the top 10 like Michigan.
[/quote]
I presume you are talking about UIUC's electrical/computer Engineering. However, Michigan also has elite (your definition) engineering departments in aerospace, mechanical, industrial, nuclear and naval. Only MIT, UCB and Stanford have clearly better engineering than Michigan and UIUC.</p>
<p>I would also describe Michigan's Electrical Engineering and Environmental Engineering departments as Elite. Both are generally ranked in or around the top 5.</p>
<p>I'll admit that I'm not knowledgeable in the business area to comment, but I at least have a solid foundation among the others. </p>
<p>Let's start with Med, how (big question) is that you came to the conclusion that UW is not an elite when I gave a series of rankings that make it arguably the best OVERALL med school Search</a> - Medical - Best Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report. Please, look at BOTH Med Research and Primary Med as they are side by side. UW's Nursing has been ranked 24 straight years #1 (ever since the ranking came out). UW's Primary Med School, which again is the med school future doctors go to, has been ranked #1 for 15 straight years ever since the ranking came out. Oh yeah, its the ONLY med school with all specialties in the top 10. How is that not as impressive as Harvard or Hopkins? If we're talking about Medical Research, yes, I admitted that UW might drop into the range of UM, but fine, let's talk about other rankings. 2 completely objective research oriented rankings in Performance</a> Ranking of Scientific Papers for World Universities and [field[/url</a>] gave it #3 and #5 and I believe that should solidify it's position in the 4/5 range (while UM got 8 and 9). </p>
<p>I never said I was the one that rated UM as one that is no longer elite. Rather, I looked at Brian Leiter's rankings, which are ones that are far superior to the US NR. In terms of repuation, here is one done in a good way [url=<a href="http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2003faculty_reputation.shtml%5DBrian">http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2003faculty_reputation.shtml]Brian</a> Leiter Faculity Quality Rankings, Scholarly Reputation, 2003-04](<a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD2008/MED2008.htm%5Dfield%5B/url">http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD2008/MED2008.htm) He also explains in his one of his articles of the glaring flaws of the law school rankings (even its Peer Review system is BS). </p>
<p>As for engineering, I got the difference between UIUC and UM none other than Professional PhD engineers themselves(Invensys Corporation). If you say UIUC, the recognition you get is completely different than the notion you would get from UM. Of course, I'm getting this feedback from an international environment, so this is technically a even superior way of measuring how well their prestige extends outside the US. I wouldn't know inside the US since I was too small when my dad was working in Houston, but I do know for a fact that Cal Tech, MIT, and UIUC are the elites on the international frontier, which is a league that Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, and UM aren't in. And Cal is nowhere close (my father was REALLY surprised when he saw it in the top 5) in the eyes of my father though I'll admit that I never asked by Cal among the engineers at Invensys. I'm sure 30 years of experience accounts at least for something. And responding to someone below, I'm not referring to engineering in any specific way. I'm saying it in the broadest sense. </p>
<p>hm, I may very well be mistaken about UC Berkeley's cost.</p>