Is Princeton really the best Undergraduate school?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Our poster apparently doesn’t know enough about graduate education in the U.S. to know that graduate students act as teaching assistants at all research institutions in the country, including Princeton and Harvard. </p>

<p>Princeton’s overall graduate school yield last year was 50%. Sammy35’s link itself shows this. What Sammy is now doing is reporting the yield figure for just the PhD programs while not including the Masters programs. The 61% figure for Harvard includes some very large Masters programs which always have higher matriculation rates. In Sammy’s link look in the upper right hand corner for the total graduate school yield—50%. In the recent past it’s been as high as 55%. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/gradschool/about/docs/admission/admission_stats.pdf[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/gradschool/about/docs/admission/admission_stats.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The third sentence from our misguided poster is certainly laughable. Princeton’s graduate programs in the arts and sciences are among the strongest in the world. Check out the following analysis. In the core arts and sciences, only Harvard competes directly with Princeton according to the most recent rankings from the National Research Council which has long been considered the “gold standard” of graduate school rankings.</p>

<p>In this ranking, the following core programs have been included: Classics, Comparative Literature, English, French, German, Spanish, History, Art/Architecture/Archeology, Music, Philosophy, Religion, Chemical Engineering, Civil Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Biochemistry, Biology, Ecology, Genetics, Neuroscience, Applied Math, Pure Math, Astronomy/Astrophysics, Chemistry, Computer Science, Geology/Geophysics, Physics, Anthropology, Economics, Political Science, Psychology and Sociology. These cover the major categories of the NRC survey known as Arts & Humanities, Engineering, Life Sciences, Physical Sciences/Math and Social and Behavioral Sciences.</p>

<p>2011 NRC Quality Assessment Rankings
For 32 Core Arts & Sciences Programs</p>

<p>100—Harvard</p>

<p>97.1–Princeton</p>

<p>89.5–Berkeley
86.8–Stanford</p>

<p>— gap—</p>

<p>62.0–Yale
61.8–Columbia
61.5–MIT</p>

<p>— gap—</p>

<p>48.6–U. of Chicago
47.3–U. of Michigan
42.6–Cal Tech</p>

<p>39.1–UCLA
38.9–Duke
36.7–Penn
35.4–NYU
34.1–Penn State
32.7–Brown</p>

<p>26.4–Northwestern
25.3–Cornell
24.4–UNC Chapel Hill
24.2–UT at Austin</p>

<hr>

<p>Of the 32 fields, the following schools had the given number of programs ranked in the top 20 of all universities:</p>

<p>NRC Quality Assessment Rankings
For 32 Core Arts & Sciences Programs
(number of top 20 programs out of 32)</p>

<p>27----Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley</p>

<p>24-----Columbia, Yale</p>

<p>21 -----U. of Michigan</p>

<p>19 ----UCLA</p>

<p>18-----MIT, U. of Chicago</p>

<p>17-----Duke, Penn</p>

<p>16 ----Cornell</p>

<p>15----Penn State, UT at Austin</p>

<p>14----Brown</p>

<hr>

<p>Of the 32 fields, the following schools had the given number of programs ranked in the top 10 of all universities:</p>

<p>NRC Quality Assessment Rankings
For 32 Core Arts & Sciences Programs
(number of top 10 programs out of 32)</p>

<p>25----Harvard
24----Princeton
23----Berkeley
22----Stanford</p>

<p>—gap—</p>

<p>17----Yale
16----MIT
14----Columbia
13----U. of Michigan
12----
11----U. of Chicago
10----NYU
9-----Cal Tech, Duke
8-----Penn
7-----Brown, UCLA
6-----
5-----JHU, Penn State, UC Santa Barbara, U. of Wisconsin
4-----Cornell</p>

<hr>

<p>Of the 32 fields, the following schools had the given number of programs ranked in the top 5 of all universities:</p>

<p>NRC Quality Assessment Rankings
For 32 Core Arts & Sciences Programs
(number of top 5 programs out of 32)</p>

<p>19----Harvard
18----Princeton
17----Berkeley</p>

<p>—gap—</p>

<p>12----Stanford
11----MIT</p>

<p>—gap—</p>

<p>7----Columbia
6----U. of Chicago
5----Cal Tech, Duke, Yale
4----U. of Michigan
3----Brown, NYU, Penn State, UCLA, UC Santa Barbara</p>

<hr>

<p>Of the 32 fields, the following schools had the given number of programs ranked in the top 2 of all universities:</p>

<p>NRC Quality Assessment Rankings
For 32 Core Arts & Sciences Programs
(number of top 2 programs out of 32)</p>

<p>13----Harvard, Princeton</p>

<p>—gap—</p>

<p>7-----Stanford
6-----MIT
5-----
4-----Cal Tech, Berkeley
3-----
2-----Brown, Columbia, Duke, UCLA, U. of Chicago
1-----Indiana U., Penn State, Rutgers, UT Austin, UC San Diego, WUSTL, Yale</p>

<hr>

<p>Of Princeton’s top rated programs, the following were in the top two:</p>

<p>Princeton’s Humanities Programs Ranked in the Top Two in the Country</p>

<p>Comparative Literature
English
French
History
Philosophy
Psychology
Sociology</p>

<p>Princeton’s Science and Engineering Programs Ranked in the Top Two in the Country</p>

<p>Astronomy/Astrophysics
Computer Science
Ecology/Evolutionary Biology
Electrical Engineering
Math–Applied
Math–Pure</p>

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<p>@Ptongrad, I am actually very interested in this. Can you tell me what Chemistry is ranked specifically? Thanks!</p>

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<p>Sure, and congratulations on your acceptance!</p>

<p>The results of the most recent NRC ranking were reported about a year ago but they were based on surveys and analyses from about 5 years before that. Six or seven years ago, Princeton’s chemistry department wasn’t ranked in the top ten in the country (I believe it was in the top 20). Since that time, there has been a dramatic change in that department. It was completely rebuilt with new leadership and impressive professors drawn from other top programs around the country. Best estimates are that if the NRC ranking were performed again today, Princeton’s chemistry department would be in the top five in the nation. The new and massive chemistry building is home to some of the most exciting research being done in that area today.</p>

<p>In the last few years since the revamping of the department, the number of chemistry professors winning major national awards has increased dramatically:</p>

<p>2012 American Chemical Society Fellows</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> University - FACULTY AWARD: Three Princeton researchers named 2012 ACS Fellows](<a href=“FACULTY AWARD: Three Princeton researchers named 2012 ACS Fellows”>FACULTY AWARD: Three Princeton researchers named 2012 ACS Fellows)</p>

<p>“Three Princeton University professors were among 96 researchers nationwide selected by the American Chemical Society as 2012 ACS Fellows. Established in 2009, the fellows program recognizes excellence in chemistry research and teaching. The newest fellows will be honored in August at the society’s national meeting.</p>

<p>The Princeton honorees are: Emily Carter, the Gerhard R. Andlinger Professor in Energy and the Environment and a professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering and applied and computational mathematics; Richard Register, chair and the Eugene Higgins Professor of Chemical and Biological Engineering; and Edward Taylor Jr., the A. Barton Hepburn Professor of Organic Chemistry, Emeritus, and senior chemist. . . . (continued)”</p>

<p>2012 American Chemical Society Fellows
(top schools)</p>

<p>3—Princeton, Purdue
2—MIT, U. of Illinois, U. of Kansas, U. of Utah, U. of Wisconsin, UNC Chapel Hill</p>

<p>The Ivies were also represented by a new fellow from Brown.</p>

<hr>

<p>2012 National Academy of Sciences New Members
(top schools)</p>

<p>6—Stanford
4—Princeton
3—Berkeley, Columbia, JHU, MIT, Penn, U. of Pittsburgh, U. of Washington & UC San Diego
2—Harvard, Ohio State, U. of Arizona, U. of Colorado, UC Santa Barbara, Vanderbilt, Yale</p>

<p>The Ivies were also represented by Brown and Cornell, each of which had one new member.</p>

<p>Princeton’s showing is significant given its lack of a medical school (which always generates many new members) much smaller faculty and broad focus on both the humanities and sciences. Princeton’s newly-elected members were:</p>

<p>Prof. William Bialek, Chemical and Biological Engineering
Prof. Pablo Debenedetti, Chemistry
Prof. John Groves, Physics
Prof. Nai Phuan Ong, Physics</p>

<hr>

<p>You can learn more about chemistry at Princeton here:</p>

<p>[Home</a> - Department of Chemistry](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/chemistry/]Home”>Princeton University Department of Chemistry)</p>

24

<p>Yes, it is.</p>

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<p>Originally, the quote did not have brackets around the parts that you changed. As you can see, you edited it at 9:17 pm after I made the remark at 9:06 pm. And since it had no brackets on it, you altered several words of my quote. As such, it was no longer my quote, but yours. Since it was your quote and you used significant parts of my statement, you plagiarized my statement. Either that or you altered a quote which qualifies as quote distortion, still a violation of academic integrity. Really? Are you still in high school? That’s a serious question because I would like to know where you’re coming from.</p>

26

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<p>LOLWUT. YLS publishes an annual bulletin delineating undergraduate representation, but where did you get your HLS numbers?</p>

<p><a href=“http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Law_School_Application_Statistics.pdf[/url]”>http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Law_School_Application_Statistics.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>YLS: 29 percent admitted
HLS: 30 percent admitted</p>

<p>[Stats</a> «*Office of Career Services « Princeton University](<a href=“Search Opportunities | Human Resources”>Search Opportunities | Human Resources)</p>

<p>YLS: 26 percent admitted
HLS: 26 percent admitted</p>

<p>The discrepancy is negligible. Princeton alums enjoy as much favoritism at YLS and HLS as their Yale and Harvard brethren.</p>

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<p>Per the NRC, Princeton sits right after Harvard in the aggregate of the core 32 grad programs. If Princeton’s “embarrassingly low” yield suggests that their Ph.D. students are of “poor quality” as sammy35 suggests, then either the NRC has no idea what they’re doing (doubtful), the Princeton faculty is significantly better than Harvard’s faculty so as to pull Princeton nearly even with Harvard in the NRC rankings (also doubtful), or sammy35’s conclusion that lower yield rate significantly decreases the quality of Princeton’s graduate students is just plain wrong. Take your pick.</p>

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<p>According to the following recent study, Princeton was found to be the most selective college in the East:</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> is most selective college in Eastern U.S. - The Business Journals](<a href=“http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/12/princeton-is-most-selective-college-in.html]Princeton”>http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/12/princeton-is-most-selective-college-in.html)</p>

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<p>I don’t post often but feel compelled after all the trolling by Sammy35. My son was an exceptionally motivated high school student who graduated in 2011 with a 2400 SAT (in one sitting) and a 4.0 GPA, along with very distinct extracurriculars. He was accepted at every school he applied to including early action at Yale, and regular admission at Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, Duke and Georgia Tech. He attended admitted students days at Harvard, Yale and Princeton. He chose Princeton for one simple reason, he felt it offered the best undergraduate education in the country. After finishing his first year at Princeton, he feels even more convinced of that. He has been challenged and motivated by some of the best professors in the country. This is to take nothing away from the amazing education that is offered by the other schools he was admitted to. It was very difficult for him to turn down Harvard and Yale, but he felt strongly Princeton was the right place for him. He has friends at Princeton who also turned down Harvard, Stanford and Yale to attend Princeton. I’m sure there are many students at Harvard who turned down Princeton and on and on. It really doesn’t matter what the surveys or research shows, the only opinion that matters for each student is where they feel like they will get the best education and have the most rewarding experience.</p>

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<p>Justmom nailed it. Just like hers, my son had a lot of good options, chose Princeton, and has had no regrets. Best for everyone? No. Best for him? Yes.</p>

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<p>I’ve just found this thread, and wanted to comment on one side argument – that undergrads at Harvard (“Yard kids”) compete with graduate students for resources or time from professors, but only with Faculty of Arts & Sciences, and not the other grad schools, because they “Don’t count.” </p>

<p>That seriously made me laugh, for several reasons. I <em>am</em> a grad student at one of Harvard’s graduate schools other than FAS. Like graduate students in several other Harvard grad schools, we’re encouraged to take courses “in the Yard” or in other grad schools in the university. Probably 1/3 of our courses are cross-listed, and are therefore open to Yard kids. As a result, while I am not an FAS grad student, I have Yard kids in 2 out of 4 of my classes each semester. So, yes, non-FAS grad students “count” in the sense that we compete for seats in classes, time with TF’s, etc. </p>

<p>On the other hand, it most often feels the other way around – that professors are more concerned with providing a good experience for Yard kids than for us. For example, in my Apocalypse class, which is probably 2/3 Yard kids, the professor is much more concerned with feedback from Yard kids that they want the class to have a different focus, have section run differently, etc. As far as time and relationships, I have never had a class with Yard kids in it that I felt was dominated by grad students, or that the professor ignored the Yard kids. They tend to talk all the time, after all. :-)</p>