LOL OMG where is the packaging coming from? Tell me what gives you that sense? Here I am trying to cut off workload and you are telling me that I should lighten up LOL. You think I should lighten up by forcing the kid to take on 15 more hours in school EC? Again are you even reading what I am writing?
By the way I think that when it comes to what kids do with their free time the colleges should just butt out and let the kids be. So what if a kid likes to just watch TV in his free time? How many of us adults are climbing Mt. Everest in our free time eh? The whole notion of free time should be just that - free. Americans work too hard already and now it seems there is a culture to work hard even during free time.
What would make my son fulfilled is a second foreign language and outside of school ECs and I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that it is his choice. I am not that much worried about growth. It’s not like the average American is growing every year. We all get a job and do the job and that’s it till we wait to retire and collect social security.
I really think you are not reading what I am writing.
I hear you, and I know it is hard to parent a driven kid. My elder wanted a second language, or more accurately she had enough of a second language that she. . .we . . .did not want it to die from underuse. I’m not sure it was worth the stress, but she is only a college freshman. Ask me in ten years.
It sounds like a private school. I think that is where some of the confusion comes from. That and either they require ECs or you are referring to actual required classes (during school hours) as ECs.
Personally, I agree that too many kids are way over scheduled. I don’t think the blame in your situation goes to the school though if you chose a school with a long commute and have your child signed up for extensive after school activities. Unless they are requiring extensive school related after school activities.
My kids have lots of down time. This is because I don’t allow loads of activities outside of school. If it means they can’t get into selective colleges that want applicants running themselves ragged for 4.0 gpa’s and a mile long list of ECs (well rounded of course, encompassing sports, volunteer, academic and leadership) then I guess my kids won’t be going to those selective colleges. I’d rather them be happy, spend time together as a family, and not feel there are too few hours in every day of middle and high school. There are lots of great colleges that don’t expect insanity. They just might not be Ivies.
My D was in a private school that required a sport every season year round. She was at the school for 12 hours a day. It was too much. She knew by leaving she would probably lessen her chances at some of the more selective colleges her brother looked at. (He went to public HS). But it was more important to live a good life, not a life geared to getting into college.
You still have not said what types of colleges you see your son applying to.
Agree that an hour commute and a 20 hour EC are the problem. And while it’s great that he wants to take 2 languages, that’s going to lead to more homework than an easy (for him) music class would. So it’s only going to make it harder to find time to relax.
Truth be told my son is not exactly driven. He wants to take French because his first school K-6 was an International IB school which offered full immersion programs in French and Spanish and as a result he was fluent in both by the time he came to this other school in 7th grade. He tested out of both French and Spanish and was then forced to take Latin which he now has to continue on in high school. He knows French will be a super easy course for him and how can I blame him for that? I would do the same myself and take a course where I won’t have to do much work.
Yes it is a private school and yes they require actual classes for 3 hours each day in arts and sports as graduation requirements. That’s 15 hours a week. They are not unique in this regard though as all the good private schools in the area have the same policy. My son had after school ECs since he was 5. He loves loves loves music and math so we put him into anything that he wanted to do and yes it is a lot now as he has 15 hours of practice and 10 hours of classes just in music these days and then there is math.
Also yes we didn’t want him to go to this school as it is far away and preferred another one close by but he chose this way and as we always do we allowed him to choose his school. But since he does homework during commute it is not really a concern for us any more as it is not leading to any extra pressure. He is super driven to not give up any outside of school ECs though. So I guess he is driven after all.
I don’t know which colleges he would want to apply to. It’s not in his mind right now as he is just a 8th grader. Which 8th grader knows which college they are going to apply to? If your daughter knew that Surfcity then kudos to her but my son is just average I guess. But tell me how adding 15 more hours to his week will make him less prone to commiting suicide?
If he’s fluent in French and accomplished at his instrumen why would French be easier than band? This seems to be more about your ambivalence about taking non-academic classes in HS.
In terms of college, I think it will look bad if anyone found out he took French ! in HS when he was already fluent. If he has a fine arts requirement, and he already is doing orchestra, what about photo, or drama or studio art, or something that will stretch him in new ways. That’s what HS is supposed to be about.
I am not saying that French will be easier than orchestra. I am just saying that French will be easy and orchestra will be painful (according to him - if you don’t like his opinion of things, too bad, but I do care a lot about his opinion and am not one to force him).
But really, why wouldn’t it look good if someone finds out that he is fluent in French and then took French? He is fluent in English too just like millions of other kids. Should he not take English? Or worse should he not take math because he can do high school math without breaking a sweat? He has to go and take college classes in math now? Why? This rat race is not very interesting to everyone you know?
Kids whose first language is Spanish take Spanish and are not chided for that. Where does this penchant for killing oneself in high school come from? If he has no interest in photo, drama, studio art, what have you, why should he force himself to take that? Trust me, if he was interested in any of that he would have told us long time back to put him into this class and that class. He is not a shy kid.
Anyway, I am somewhat shocked by the general opinion on this thread. Seriously guys, doesn’t anyone here think that kids should take courses that they are interested in and relax just a bit (a few of you indeed said that, thank you!)? All I am hearing is that kids should stretch themsleves, move mountains, force themselves to do things they don’t enjoy. Is high school supposed to be pure torture and not fun?
I think there are several questions being asked here and that we’re also answering some hat aren’t being asked. One is whether you will be permitted by the school to use outside activities to avoid the in school arts requirement. At the school I am most familiar with, the answer would be a solid no. They expect families to buy Into the curriculum they have designed and expect families to go elsewhere if they disagree. They have a 90% yield, so I general they get away with this. But, they do lose out on the occasional student – dancer, hockey player, musician, actor who isn’t willing to manage the curriculum.
I cannot answer the question for your private school, but I know your plans wouldn’t work at the school I know.
The other question is whether avoiding school based activities in favor of outside activities would affect your child’s college application. Potentially, but a unpredictable enough answer that I wouldn’t be driven to make decisions on that basis.
I think you’re missing the point (or at least my point) regarding involvement in school-based activities like math club, orchestra, sports, etc. It’s not necessarily about the activity itself. Instead, a lot of it is about what goes on between the kids as they work and play together. Participation in extracurricular activities encourages a sense of identification with the school community, offers opportunity for taking leadership roles, and sets the scene for important social interactions that lead to the development of social skills. (Plus, for most kids, their ECs are fun…something that should be a part of any teenager’s life.)
High school is not all about developing intellectual skills. It’s also about developing the ability to get along with others, work in teams, and form social bonds. That shouldn’t be “torture,” but neither is it purely frivolous.
My kids were friends with their classmates, but their closest friendships were with the kids they played sports with, the kids they danced with, the kids they were in plays with, the other proud “band nerds”. These were the kids they traveled across the country with on school-sponsored trips, the kids they stayed up late with when they had to meet deadlines, the kids they celebrated with when they won a game or grumbled with when the band director’s expectations for marching formations seemed unreasonable. These are the memories that will go with them for the rest of their lives…not the “easy A” French class that they really didn’t have to work very hard at.
If all of his ECs are non-school based and his school time is purely focused on solitary academic studies, he runs the risk of feeling alienated for the other students at school and, frankly, may suffer in terms of things like LOR and school recognition because the faculty may not have the opportunity to know the whole child. But, most importantly, in my mind at least, is that it might be a long four years for a kid who doesn’t feel a part of his school because his passions and social bonds are all found elsewhere.
I echo all the points that zoosermom makes. My D’s playing level was far above that of her school orchestra, but she adored her high school orchestra director and enjoyed starting the school day with music and friends instead of a grueling AP class. One day when she felt low about a personal issue, coincidentally the director played a DVD during class of a concerto competition she won and her classmates were so supportive, which made her day. She was awarded the orchestra scholarship award that year and goes back during breaks to see her orchestra director.
In my kid’s school, the top graduation awards always have an involvement component. Always.
All other things aside, if you see your son as successful in four years and in the running for awards or honors or other accolades, will you be ok if he doesn’t receive them due to lack of participation or because the teachers/advisors/mentors don’t know him well enough to put him forward for anything?
Personally, my kid is an excellent musician, but he did not cure cancer, hasn’t brokered world peace and will not win a Pulitzer next year. He won’t even be an NMF with a 4.0 GPA. Therefore, the resume matters and if the resume is completely blank as to school stuff, he will be a tough sell to many or even most colleges. You need to be sure that if your son is not involved in his school in any meaningful way, he doesn’t come off looking as anti-social in some way. Within the holistic process, a complete lack of involvement in the school will raise questions and its impact on recommendations could matter, as well.
Kids should defintely take things that interest them but not exclusively things that interst them.
Why should he take an art class if it doesn’t interest him? Well, why should a kid who hated math take math classes? High school is supposed to give kids a well-rounded basic education. That’s why there are required courses in various subject areas. Including fine arts. And we don’t generally assume that 13-14 year olds know what’s best for them all the time. Certainly they have preferences and within reason those should be considered.
Of course everyone has their own defintion of “within reason” and that’s for you and his school to decide.
Kids get into Ivies all the time with narrowly focused interests and little involvement in their schools because of outside involvements that are more useful. Not that an Ivy is the goal of this poster or a worthwhile goal period. But it is perfectly possible to relax, follow genuine interests, and still get into a selective school- if that is important to anyone. More importantly, high school life lived in the present should determine choices.
Some kids love down time, others don’t. It is important to have the chance at it and we parents can value relaxing even with a kid who doesn’t!
I loved French. French in a good private school will involve reading wonderful literature, writing essays and poetry, and practicing conversation that maintains or improves fluency. If he wants to take it out of interest, great. If he wants to take it because it is easy, great too, but it may no be that easy!
As I said before, many families on the music major forum will agree with not doing music at school. Many music kids who are serious find school music to be torture. Much better to do it outside when the talent and work levels are high, unless the student really wants the social experience. Some kids are social, some are more task-oriented, some do fine without involvement in school activities. Chances are the school day offers some opportunities for bonding.
Keep it simple. If he wants to take French versus music at school, go for it, and see if he can get at least a waiver for his outside work in music. I know a kid who did a thesis at Harvard that combined music and French (he wrote an opera). You never know what like will bring so just let him explore what he wants to do naturally; no need to push other EC’s.
You sound like you have a good handle on what your son needs. No need to worry about LOR’s etc. If he is serious in music teachers and guidance at the school won’t be that helpful: music teachers outside will write letters for an arts supplement. But that is so far away. He should just enjoy his life as much as he can now. Middle school is hard for everyone!
If your kid is fluent in French he may be not be happy in high school French. My fluent-in-French kid was put into French 6, but he was the only kid at that level and he was in a supposedly mixed level class where he was bored to distraction. He characterized is as having to listen to the teacher telling the other kids how to say “firetruck” in French. He had to get out of that class.
It depends on the situation. If he has top grades and scores, he will be fine. But if he is more marginal (like my kid), then a blank school resume would not be a good thing. I actually think the student should do whatever about music, but should find something in his school that would be worth his time.
If he is so fluent in French, have him take the AP French exam.
You are trading hours of time IN school for certain things to hours of time outside of school for the same things. I’d say your choice, but your son is making all the decisions anyway…so really, it’s his choice.
What does he want to do? Take French and be excused from all school based arts, sports, and ECs? If yes I would honor that and see if the school will allow it. I would warn my son that he may have a harder time making friends in school if he isn’t in any school based activity. I would be wondering why he chose this school if he doesn’t want to take part in any of its ECs. You mentioned that he has friends going in to high school; that is good, but if he doesn’t do anything with them, will they become estranged? Sure, kids hang out together outside of school, but they also bind together more tightly if they are on teams together.
Is he a kid who likes to do everything? Are you trying to protect him? I had one who started off in two time consuming sports and music, plus the full array of hard classes. He loved it. He thrived. He was at school from 6:30 to 6:30. It was amazing. Eventually he did have to drop a sport because he wasn’t able to perform as well as he wanted in his other activities. And so he dropped a sport—the sport he chose to drop. (He did find a way to keep doing it outside of school in a more low key way.) He ramped up in his remaining activities, so before long his schedule was crazy again. But that was just how he was wired. My role was to help him figure out how he could do what he wanted to do. (And yes, to ask questions if he ever felt overwhelmed, like “you could drop basketball; if you dropped basketball would you be happier?” I had to respect the choices he made, or felt I did: I would rather he have dropped a different sport than he did, and some of his class choices were not what I would have made.)
Thank you compmom!! You really get it. The key is that all kids are different.
Thumper, don’t be silly. He has been fluent in English for years now. Doesn’t mean he could have taken AP English.
Lizardly, My son is unlike yours and could never survive a 6:30-6:30 day. That’s one long day. Even as adults we don’t work 60 hour weeks plus take work home. Anyway he certainly didn’t choose the school for the ECs in fact we didn’t even think of ECs when we chose the school. He liked the academic classes, the rigour, the level of discourse in class etc.
1or2musicians, So outside of schools arts don’t count towards being well rounded?
EllieMom and others, I get your point but I am not worried about the social life and friend circle because it won’t be my social life or friend circle. That’s my son’s call. All kids are different. If he is happy I am happy.
zoosersmom, I think school awards are silly. But it doesn’t really matter what I think. My son is oblivious to school awards. Growing up he has seen too many awards being given for participation and is not respectful of school awards any more. Now external competitions are a whole different ball game for him. He likes clear winners and losers.
Anyway, I talked to the school and he can get waivers. The school was surprised as we never told them what music my son does outside of school. (My son’s friends don’t know either. He is a very private person.)