Is there anything to hate about Brown?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
41

<p>Yeah, I mean, I have plenty of things to talk about that are not at all concerns for incoming students and which are so specific to situations here that I imagine you run into these things anywhere in some form or another so its just not helpful. If I thought it was something helpful to know about, I’d discuss it.</p>

<p>For instance, the UTRAs still certainly cover your expenses for the summer including going out on weekends and stuff. But if you wanted to use the summer to save up some money and get ahead for the year, the paycheck is not enough and you’re better off applying for some external funding, depending on your field of research. ACS (American Chemical Society), for instance, while quite competitive, offers 5k. It’d be nice to be able to save money over the summer instead of spend your 3k on rent, food, and going out and having a good time while you’re hear. The way I supplemented my income was making money giving science tours during my lunch that covered my food for the whole summer. 3k is not prohibitive, but it’s not as much money as I’d like it to be.</p>

<p>But still, this sort of thing is not helpful at all, IMO, so what’s the point of bringing it up?</p>

<p>I’m excited for Faunce to be redone-- all of the recent renovation projects have worked out surprisingly well, I think, and actually it has been significantly better than new construction from scratch.</p>

42

<p>“brown is also a place where smart kids meet rich kids”</p>

<p>Excuse me icebox4, are you saying that rich kids aren’t smart? That’s an incredibly stupid and stereotypical conclusion to reach.</p>

43

<p>

I very much dislike Brown’s often horrible choice of architects/interior designers. I cannot believe they are changing a brick Faunce Arch into some sort of horrible brick/glass monstrosity. People like the antiquated look. I don’t want an ugly pointy metallic arts center or a see-through walkway. I (and many others I’ve spoken with) want bricks and stone. Also, Pembroke Hall: what the **** is that? It looks fine from the outside, but the inside is a postmodern minimalist nightmare. They couldn’t keep more than one wood-panelled room with a fireplace?</p>

<p>I hate this about Brown. Also, the grounds crew is stupid; they cut the grass way, way too short/often so it’s muddy and gross looking. It should be several inches higher at all times, but I guess it gives people jobs, especially when they have to put new sod in every three weeks. Oh, and I hate people who open the wrong door to Sayles. Can’t they see that the left door overlaps the right, so if they try to open the right side it just serves to break off the overlapping wood? It’s had to be repaired several times.</p>

<p>MY REAL ANSWER!</p>

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<p>icebox, I doubt they were that hurt that you declined their offer of admission. They probably didn’t care, and were willing to give your spot to just another person who actually wanted it.</p>

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<p>I don’t know too much about the Faunce plans but I love what they did with JWW and I think the Bookstore renovations went great. I haven’t seen the inside of Pembroke Hall but the outside is great. If it is anything like Smitty-B on the inside then I’m all for it-- I love that interior space.</p>

46

<p>As a prospie, I just want to say that I found modestmelody’s post #35 VERY helpful. Some freshmen do care about the little consequences of a lower endowment than peer schools (things like the 3k stipend that has to cover living expenses as well as the FA summer earnings contribution), or about the fact that dorm space is tight (triples, anyone?), or about the hiring of professors who worry more about research than teaching. Those are all meaningful negatives that very well might be “concerns for incoming students.”</p>

47

<p>Except that overall the character is still a focus on teaching and there has been huge push back on the research thing-- right now it’s very tough nationwide to balance both anywhere. I’m happy to say that with a far larger percentage of our faculty tenured than many of our peers, we have a faculty that on the whole can focus on teaching more because there are less people seeking to acquire tenure.</p>

<p>The 3k stipend has nothing to do with the general endowment, it has to do with the endowment for those research projects alone and the discretionary budget of the DOC and where they choose to money for that. It’s easy to live on 3k for the summer at Brown, but it’s still more expensive than getting a job at staying at home. That’s going to be true most places, I just think that it would be a cheap thing that Brown can afford to do that could really up the profile of an already extremely successful program (80+% of applicants get one and internal tracking shows the other 20% find funding through other streams).</p>

<p>We don’t have tight dorm space with triples being common except for transfers, and in fact, we don’t ever take a room where the designated occupancy is for two people and make it a triple.</p>

<p>So these things are actually marginal for many people here at Brown and certainly are not necessarily worse than anywhere else-- in fact, these are just some of the quirks of Brown that I’m sure I’d have similar complaints anywhere else. A Rhodes Scholar from Brown who transfered from Brown to Harvard and then back said she had a far, far harder time getting a hold of resources at Harvard despite the fact that they were supposed to be “unlimited” and found herself more hindered there then at Brown, which is why she returned. She was convinced that she was losing opportunities because of our “lack” of money, but actually found that what we lack in quantity we pick up for by making it so readily accessible to undergraduates in general.</p>

<p>So I’m just saying it’s extremely hard to understand those things in their full context until you’re a student actually here, and none of them are worth making a decision over because anyone being honest at any school about their experience will have complaints that are similar to that. I think that there are some more major, systemic problems undergraduates face elsewhere that are worth considering, but I think most of my negatives are not of the magnitude that it should really impact anyone’s decision.</p>

48

<p>Fair enough, although I doubt Brown will ever match an elite LAC in teaching-focused professors. It probably wouldn’t want to (and I make the comparison only because so many people cite Brown as an LAC-like Ivy). Still, here’s a hint: saying what you don’t like about a school, even if you consider it unimportant, tremendously ups your credibility. I find it hard to believe that there aren’t any “major” problems at Brown, any more or less than at ANY other school–it all depends on what an individual considers a con vs. a pro, and the best way to aid that decision is to make the most information available as possible.</p>

49

<p>I cannot think of anywhere in the country that I could go to and have less problems or less severe problems with than Brown.</p>

<p>Actually, up until about 6-7 years ago, I would have said we could match any elite LAC for teaching faculty. Since Ruth Simmons has been president and since the Plan for Academic Enrichment has been in place, alongside changes in external grant and funding structures, I think that the 40% turn over in faculty over the last 6 years has made us a far stronger research institution. I’m not sure that this has come at the expense of teaching-- anecdotally, many department heads and heads of faculty search committees have expressed to me the importance during the hiring stage of teaching recognition and ability. However, these same people have expressed to me that during tenure review, research has always been king. The new pressures making it more difficult to acquire funding than it used to be has resulted in many young professors being particularly squeezed for research production in order to earn tenure. It’s getting harder to publish and harder to get money, and Brown has really up the stakes on what they expect from faculty in terms of research.</p>

<p>The result has been, if not a change in who we hire, a change of priorities amongst younger faculty and how they’re capable of balancing their time and where that balance lies.</p>

<p>Like I said before, this may, in fact, be offset by the large numbers of tenured faculty at Brown relative to peers. I know, again anecdotally, that I’ve had far better experiences with teaching at Brown than any of my friends at other universities have reported. I can think of only two classes I’ve taken that were not extremely well taught.</p>

<p>BTW, while it may increase my credibility with some people, I’m not sure I have a credibility issue on this forum. Maybe over in the main College Search and Admissions forum where I’m relatively new and constantly butting up against people who don’t care about teaching or undergraduate education or the education process once you’re at a school, but on the Brown board I think I get more respect than I deserve.</p>

50

<p>I’m acquainted with your reputation, as a Brown promoter who tries to be fair but usually ends up visibly biased. ;)</p>

<p>In any case, while I’m here I may as well pose some questions. What’s the largest class at Brown and how big is it? At what level (100/200/300) could I expect not to be “taught” by TAs? Note that I consider TA-led discussion sections / labs to be teaching.</p>

51

<p>Well considering that the TAs who run labs are not teaching the lecture portion and are there solely to answer questions on actual procedure and watch safety, it takes a bit of time to get away from that and depends on the department.</p>

<p>Discussion sections I know nothing about because I have only had one class with sections and the professor ran them.</p>

<p>Know the largest class is not all that helpful because there is only one that big, and that’s PS22 with 500 or so students. It’s very popular because Jim Morone is one of the best lecturers on campus and its introductory level and accessible to anyone.</p>

<p>70-75% of classes at Brown are 20 students or less.</p>

<p>The only classes where an instructor is a TA are early math classes, a few of the first level writing seminars in literary arts, and some of the intro language classes which are taught by native speakers. In the case of math classes, the professor run section is always available and rarely, if ever, capped.</p>

<p>If the labs are not instructional (that’s what prelab is), why do you consider TAs lab students?</p>

<p>We don’t do 100/200/300 like most places. 0-999 are undergraduate classes. 1000-1999 are for undergraduates, mainly at the concentration level, and occasionally graduate students. 2000-2999 are graduate level courses. 3000+ are medical school.</p>

<p>FWIW, by the second semester of my sophomore year every lab I was in had the professor present for every single lab, in addition to TAs. Typically 2 TAs, one professor, 10 students.</p>

<p>You’ll notice I do very little comparison to other schools, so I’m not sure how you’d come across that I’m biased. I can only talk about how Brown does thing in any detail and I’m willing to discuss what is here for anyone who wants to do anything and how it works here and the success I’ve seen with people here in those areas. I can’t say other schools can’t do it, specifically, because I don’t go to other schools.</p>

<p>In fact, even when generalizing, you’ll often find my posts are hesitant.</p>

<p>For instance, I have posted that UPenn is generally perceived as more pre-professionally oriented, but you’ll often find the next sentence saying I’m not sure to what extent this effects or changes things one way or the other.</p>

52

<p>My perception of bias comes mainly from the fact that when I see you in various choice/decision threads, you always talk up Brown. It’s all polite and non-competitive, which is refreshing compared to some other people, but the very fact that you know so much about Brown means that you’ll have much more (positive) to say about it than the other schools, creating an imbalance.</p>

<p>What is PS22? (Dept./topic-wise?) The largest class question is more of personal interest than any use in gauging class size, I agree.</p>

<p>I don’t expect to be taking many (if any) lab courses, but what if a question comes up regarding material or something other than procedure/safety? I don’t think questions only deign to appear in one’s mind during lecture (or more appropriately during office hours). And hopefully the TA would be able to answer said question, but it’s still not as good as receiving a direct answer from an experienced teacher with a Ph.D.</p>

<p>And yes, I had heard about grad students teaching creative writing (“literary arts”) courses. That would be a negative for me–certainly not a deciding point, but still something to consider. Maybe I’m unusual in wanting to know the little things, the nagging details that don’t bother anyone–I’d still rather know beforehand than after.</p>

53

<p>PS22 is City Politics.</p>

<p>Sure, they can answer questions about the material. To be honest, they shouldn’t be graduate students if they can’t answer those questions. The labs with graduate students are low enough level that as a senior I can tell you right now I’d be very comfortable answering all of your questions without any trouble or fear of inaccuracies. It’s really not that hard to discuss first year level material.</p>

<p>As for the creative writing stuff, it’s just the very first semesters of Fiction, Screenwriting, etc. I took one of those classes and it was the best class on writing I’ve ever taken without a doubt. I don’t think we really have a quality issue in those classes and they’re highly sought after by undergrads, undeterred by the TAs teaching them. I’m not wholly against TAs teaching or wholly for it-- I think it can work well and it can work very poorly. I think right now, for whole course instruction, it’s used extremely rarely at Brown and effectively. I’ve heard mixed things about sections-- some people with amazing TAs and some people with not so amazing, but like I said, I’ve never taken one of those courses.</p>

<p>As for imbalance, I think that’s natural. Like I said, I only know about Brown, so that’s what I’m here to talk about.</p>

54

<p>@icebox4</p>

<p>"yup, we have some stupid, spoiled, legacy kids. so what? "</p>

<p>what do you mean so what? of course this matters. brown has a reputation for accepting the largest number of legacy children among the ivy league–also sons and daughters of celebrities, princess/princes.</p>

<p>i mean, it might not matter to you since you were accepted, but to those like me who were rejected and were extremeley passionate about attending brown based on pure merit…it’s MUCH harder to accept.</p>

<p>i go to a top notch school and we had 13 kids apply to brown from the school. out of thirteen kids one was wait listed and one was accepted. both are legacies.</p>

<p>imagine what that feels like for me…sure, they are pretty smart kids, but nowhere as qualified as some of the non legacy candidates. and i know you’re probably wondering how i can say they’re qualified or not, but i’ve gone to school with these kids for 4-7 years. we know alot about each other.</p>

<p>it’s frustrating and it makes me incredibly upset inside, but what can i do? i’ve learned to move on…and the more and more i think about it—Brown really isn’t this perfect place i made it to be in my mind.</p>

<p>the boy who was accepted told his friends that he thought i deserved it more than him. it was a humble gesture on his part, but at the same time I never want to hear words like that. i’m trying to forget it. admissions are anything but fair. </p>

<p>so back to the original statement…does it matter? yes, of course it matters. especially when you don’t have that legacy label on you.</p>

55

<p>ilovepeople has been reading about some pretty ****ty practices of the 80s and early 90s and applying them to today.</p>

<p>There are a lot of great reasons to have some legacy preferences, and even more than that, the legacy applicant pool is significantly stronger than the general pool.</p>

<p>FWIW, I’m a first generation college student at Brown now. The more I think about it, this is your way of dealing with the fact that unfortunately you’ll not be at Brown next year. I’m sorry that things have worked out this way after you’ve fallen for Brown as you did, but I’ll tell you that you haven’t really learned to move on because you’ve been posting all over bashing Brown ever since this happened as a coping mechanism.</p>

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<p>^ Is there any statistical evidence indicating that the legacy pool is significantly stronger than the general pool? I think it’s probably true, since legacies are predominantly WASP who are predominantly upper-class and therefore more likely to be competitive–but I’ve yet to see numbers backing up the reasoning.</p>

57

<p>I don’t have it easily accessible, but yes, there’s been significant evidence not just at Brown but across academia that legacy students are more qualified.</p>

<p>It makes plenty of sense because in general, students who have parents who are educated tend to have significantly more educational opportunity, the connections between socio-economic class and success, etc etc.</p>

<p>Legacies get in at higher rates, but they’re far from less qualified. Statistics on accepted students who are legacies are almost always comparable to the student body at large and are not the “merit-drain” that things like sports programs typically are (having a very narrow definition of merit).</p>

<p>None of that is Brown-specific, FYI.</p>

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<p>[Affirmative</a> Action Blog Spot: Legacy Admits: More Money, Lower Scores](<a href=“http://affirmact.blogspot.com/2008/08/legacy-admits-more-money-lower-scores.html]Affirmative”>The AAAED | News & Commentary : Legacy Admits: More Money, Lower Scores)</p>

<p>Quick search found this blog. While it’s very adamantly arguing against legacy admits, if you look at the actual data in terms of SAT numbers, 12% lower than other students with parents who have college degrees is really not a huge amount.</p>

<p>Really, admissions is about meeting a minimum standard, and from there it is about standing out enough to grab one of the spots you’re qualified for that is available.</p>

<p>There are benefits to legacy admits (alongside disadvantages), but to say they’re on the whole “unqualified” is crazy (and really, the language of more or less qualified is stupid, college admissions is a binary) and to deny there are some real benefits is also stupid.</p>

<p>Institutional memory is one reason outside of the financial reasons that I think that legacies are great to have around.</p>

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<p>Interesting. I would argue that 12% seems like a statistically significant difference, although of course I don’t know the rest of the context.</p>

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<p>It is statistically significant, but especially since that’s in comparison to family’s where parents have four year degrees, we’re not talking anywhere near the difference between qualified and unqualified.</p>

<p>Unqualified people are not getting into Brown due to their legacy status, that’s the claim I’d make. They may be less statistically appealing than some candidates, but they certainly fall within normal range of Brown students at large (and even don’t fair too poorly against others with high advantages coming in) and they bring with them several additional advantages that are worth considering.</p>

<p>It always seems to me that the crux of the argument against AA or legacy admission is that unqualified people get in, but 12% off from others with parents who have graduated college is hardly unqualified.</p>

<p>The idea of being “less” or “more” qualified is a myth.</p>