Is this normal/appropriate?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>The classical music world is relatively new to me as a parent, so I need some other parents to guide me through this. My S is a 15 yr old HS soph who, from feedback from teachers, contest judges, workshop conductors, etc, is a very talented vocalist (baritone). We switched private teachers at the beginning of this school year and the new teacher is very excited about S. He gushes after every lesson about how far S can go, what a natural he is... Now private teacher has asked if we would allow him to take S to New York to have him sing for several teachers (not sure who they are but I think one is at MSM). </p>

<p>Is this normal for talented kids? Do private teachers generally "shop" their kids around to conservatory teachers? Do you think private teacher is pushing S too soon? BTW, S is already singing the typical repetoire for college admissions (according to teacher).</p>

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<p>I haven’t heard of anything like this. Maybe you should go with them.</p>

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<p>Oh sure, I’d go with them. I’m not worried about “moral” inappropriateness, I just wonder if this is what he needs to do to pursue a career in music.</p>

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<p>Too soon, too early. Voices mature with body. It sounds to me like the teacher is trying to further his own career. Beware.</p>

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<p>My D is an instrumentalist, so there is definately a difference, but when she was in 8th grade her then flute teacher told us she was too talented for her and needed a “real” teacher. She arranged to have the director of woodwinds at a NYC conservatory listen to her. The teacher heard her and accepted her as a student. </p>

<p>My D studied with that NYC teacher for the last 4 years; and I can’t thank the first teacher enough for getting us to the next level. </p>

<p>I don’t think it is odd at all. I’d like to believe the teacher is really looking out for your son. I say, go for the day and let your son enjoy himself, and see what comes of it. I also think the NYC teachers will know about the appropriateness of the repertoire.</p>

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<p>With all due respect, flute1298, it’s very different for voice. Listen to Lorelei’s advice-- ambitious teachers are known to ruin young voices. The college teachers should know and recognize that.</p>

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<p>I think it is premature to “shop” your child to conservatory teachers at the age of 15. While exposure to some different teachers is valuable prior to entering the audition season of twelfth grade, usually this exposure happens towards the end of eleventh grade or after. </p>

<p>If NYC were within an hour or two, then I could see value in meeting possible teachers for the rest of high school, but your location indicates you live in Texas. It would make more sense for your son to sing for a couple of excellent local teachers that might help prepare him for further studies. As others mention, voices change a huge amount (particularly with boys) between the age of 15 and 18 (and then continue developing and changing for at least another decade). </p>

<p>lorelei2702 has extensive knowledge of young voices and teaching them and always gives reasonable and sound advice. I would delay the trip for a year.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all your advice. It’s interesting to see how things work in this classical world. </p>

<p>Just as a point of info…my S has been performing professionally in musical theatre since he was 8. When his voice dropped into the basement (right in the middle of his Billy Elliott auditions) his voice teacher at the time recommended that he start classical training (and he still continues coaching S for MT auditions, etc). So, S started classical training at 13. He still hasn’t decided where he is going to end up. His agent confirms that his MT options are really limited until his mid-20s, so S is considering getting a VP undergrad and then either VP or MT masters degree. Unfortunately, for a baritone (or bass) there is no work when you look like an angel and sing like Paul Robeson.</p>

<p>We have heard many comment similar to Lorelei’s about his body needing to mature. MT coach has recommended personal trainer to start building up S’s body to support his gigantic voice!</p>

<p>Still contemplating the trip to NY…I would like S to visit a conservatory, as well as some university music schools to get an idea of where he would like to apply eventually. So we may take private teacher up on the offer to introduce S around. After all, in music, as in theatre, I assume a lot of success depends on who you know.</p>

<p>Thanks again - I appreciate your wisdom.</p>

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<p>^I would always defer to Lorelei’s advice with respect to closely observing the teacher for intent, not rushing your son’s development, etc. That said I just wanted to muse out loud that my son and I started traveling for visits, gathering info, escalating lesson type (as it related to his area, which is technology) during the summer of sophomore year, and to my mind it really assisted him later in preparing for his senior year portfolio, interviews and rounds to his shortlisted schools. So for an experienced MT 15 year old considering classical VP training, it would make a certain amount of sense to familiarize him with the classical vp world (as opposed to the nuance of “shopping” him). Eg. as an exploration, opportunity to ask questions, etc. rather than as an early audition ;)</p>

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<p>I agree with the others,listen to Lorelei, she knows about voice training. As far as ‘getting to know professors’, I can’t speak about voice, but in the instrumental world I would kind of wonder about that. It is very different if a teacher says "look, I think you are great, I have taken you as far as I can, and I think you may want to try and hook on with a teacher at a music school who can handle you’ and talking about ‘taking him around’ to meet professors.
While I don’t doubt there are exceptions, admissions to music schools are generally not decided by one professor, they are decided by an admissions panel working with the schools admissions group, and that is based on an audition. There could be cases where a professor has a kid coming in they love and they have enough repute to ‘push them in’, but it is not the general rule.</p>

<p>And without besmirching your son’s current teacher, it sounds a lot like what I have seen, music teachers who see a talented student and immediately get ideas like they are going to be known as the teacher who helped produce ‘the next great thing’. I don’t think it is a bad idea to get to know schools, go to student recitals, and maybe even book sample lessons with a teacher at a conservatory (or pay them for an evaluation), but ‘showing the kid around’ sounds suspicious to me, to be honest, it sounds more like the teachers ego. I heartily encourage you and your son to go around, and especially if you can sit in on master classes and such (MSM is pretty good about that, least with instrumental ones, they post them on their website all the time, Mannes does too), go to student recitals and by all means meet the teachers, do sample lessons, etc. You can do that as well as the teacher, and maybe without the pressure.</p>

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<p>From OP: “MT coach has recommended personal trainer to start building up S’s body to support his gigantic voice!” If this refers to cardiovascular fitness and general muscle toning, great. But a 15 year old should not be engaged in body building…the muscular skeletal frame is not mature, and the balance of coordination is delicate. Many voice teachers have concerns about weight training for singers. One of the primary functions of the laryngeal tract is fixative, for extraordinary physical efforts…the vocal cords are pressed together during exertion, and the release of air is explosive (listen to the sounds in any weight room, all the grunting noises…these are not good for a singer). Continued breathing through any all exercises is imperative. </p>

<p>There is no telling where a 15 year old voice is going, up, down or side-ways. Furthermore, if a young voice attempts to satisfy repertory appropriate for a more mature voice, it risks damage and it makes it much more difficult to fix the problems that inevitably develop. </p>

<p>There are many things a 15 year old can do to enhance and develop his or her love of music and performance, but everything said here sends up potential red flags. Whether he evolves into a classical singer or pursues musical theater, there is plenty of time to mature. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>To OP, there is this thing called “muscle memory”. It can be a real problem for young singers, singing rep they aren’t ready for yet or learning something the “wrong” way. When they come back to it later they can’t shake the way they learned it before, so that role is not available to them until they can retrain, in some cases it can take years and some never get past it. My son has one aria that he loved and sang over and over when he was younger, he still can’t sing a part of it properly. So he lays it down and comes back to it periodically. Too bad because it is a role that would be good for him now.</p>

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<p>Brava to Lorele,et al. Please, megpmom, back off from all of this and let your son just enjoy singing for a year or two. No way should a 15 year old be singing “college admissions rep”! He’s a KID, for heaven’s sake, and no one, not even the top teachers in the world, can tell you what he’ll sound like next year, much less two, or four years down the road. I know of two young men right now, in conservatory, who are undergoing complete changes of fach: the one has been singing bari for years, but in truth, he’s going to be a Puccini-type tenor! Young sopranos, like my D, with a solid bottom and middle, are often thought to be mezzos, but when they are to advanced study, the teacher frees up the top, and there’s a full-lyric soprano in there! The voice is a living instrument, and it can be easily damaged by pushing too hard. If you drop a horn, a good tech can repair it with a soldering torch; polyps, nodes… you’re talking lengthy rest and/or surgery.
I can guess which teacher has been discussed at MSM (one of two, I’d say) and from what I know of both, they wouldn’t listen to a boy your son’s age, for exactly the reasons that have been sited here- he is too young at this point. Like my D, your son is a year younger than others, I’m guessing, meaning that he will be 17 as a senior? That also poses a problem, because that extra year of growth makes a difference too. My D is a second year VP major, and as commented by srw, muscle memory, and singing of the more advanced pieces too early could rule out things that could be an excellent fit later on; that’s happened to my D.
You may love his new voice teacher, but I would be very leery of anyone who has made the suggestions he has. Of course you want to see your S succeed, but as Lorelei pointed out, there is plenty of time…</p>

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<p>It is very difficult to redo things learned with inappropriate technique and lack of maturity. I have one student who has sung every young light lyric soprano role I could imagine, EXCEPT what she should have been doing first, the Mozart maids. Now she sounds great in them, but getting the others redone will very difficult. It makes me very angry that she has lost all of this time.</p>

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<p>To the OP, I hope you don’t think you are getting attacked here! Most of us on here do understand what its like having a talented child and most of us saw this talent emerge at a young age. And many of us saw our talented kids get a lot of attention at a young age. I too had a son who sang baritone at 15 and he had a huge voice. In the school musicals they always gave him the bad mic that cut out because they knew he could be heard without it. But this voice thing is very tricky indeed. You can’t see it so if it breaks as said above you can’t weld or re-glue it, and it is delicate especially at a young age. If you follow professional opera you will see singers being replaced all of the time due to illness or strain. Look at what happened to Rolando Villazon, he sang the wrong rep now he has gone from the tippy top to singing in small houses and definitely singing a different rep and he cancels all of the time. He was told over and over that he was pushing it, he wouldn’t listen.</p>

<p>So please encourage your son to be very very careful. Just because you can sing it doesn’t mean you should.</p>

<p>Oh and by the way, my 15 year old baritone is now a tenor!</p>

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<p>As a parent of a musician and a dancer, I would also suggest that emotionally, this kind of pressure can be counterproductive. With my dancer daughter, I actually tried to keep her away from the extraordinary pressures of the ballet world, from the age of 8 when she started dancing. We also did not allow the kind of training, including pointe, that should be voided during growth (though it rarely is), for physiological reasons.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, a well-intentioned teacher picked up on her talent (for ballet-based modern, mainly) and had her performing with much older dancers, many of whom were professionals- at the age of 15 or so. My daughter seemed to think this was fun, and seemed relaxed, and enjoyed performing. It certainly seemed as if dance would be a fulfilling path for her, and our family did everything we could to encourage it, while also trying to be aware of pressures on her that might eventually cause difficulties.</p>

<p>One thing I did several times a year was to say to her, "Are you sure you are happy doing this?, or “Are you sure you don’t want to have a more normal life?” or “Would you like to try some art or something else besides dance?” I always wanted it to be absolutely clear that she herself was choosing her path, and that I would fully support it if she chose other things to do instead.</p>

<p>At age 17, after a big performance, she came to me and told me she was going to stop dancing for awhile. It has been a year now. I am glad that I could be happy for her. She is headed to a college that will allow her to dance and choreograph with an emphasis on creative work, but that also offers all kinds of other areas to explore. It is up to her what she decides to pursue, and I am so glad it will be balanced, and without that kind of external pressure on her that she has experienced while being “used” by some as a precocious dancer.</p>

<p>My daughter the musician enjoyed doing theater for many years, and reading, and sports, and many other things. Only in her junior year of high school did she really identify music as her primary interest. At that age, clearly the interest and hard work was all from her own motivation, and not from parents or teachers or expectations of anyone else.</p>

<p>My points are that kids’ interest change, and pushing too early may influence decisions later. That kids’ goals will change between 15 and 18, or 20 and 24, or between 25 and 30! (There is really no way to be sure that this is what your son will want to be doing.) And that broad interests when younger can often result in a better, more authentic focus later on.</p>

<p>None of this may apply to your son’s situation, but I hope it is helpful.</p>

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<p>Compmom…I can totally identify with your post. My daughter made a definitive decision at the beginning of junior year in college and decided to finish her degree in science and pursue music full time which she will be doing in the fall. I would (and still will) be delighted for her whatever she picks. My goal is to raise happy, well adjusted, well rounded children who live with no regrets on the paths they’ve chosen. When children have a talent, everyone seems to have an definitive opinion on what you should be doing with them. It takes time and patience to cull through all the opinions and figure out which seems to be the best for them. I pray alot! Through it all at various times, usually during extremely stressful periods as she was juggling two totally diverse and difficult paths, we had heart to heart conversations on what she wanted to do with her future since eventually, one path had to be chosen. Her life, her decision but there were countless discussions over the years that went into forming that decision. And has you say…it could change at any age.</p>

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<p>Agree with srw, please don’t think you are being attacked. We, too, were novices when it came to DD and her voice. I had no idea what to expect. I came here and read everything I could, asked questions and appreciated the private messages and time of the generous folks here. </p>

<p>What I learned is that MT and classical VP are very different. DD is graduating from college this year. Her MT friends, even those that were in classical VP programs, are out being seen and getting ready to head into their careers. There is a sweet spot in timing to get started right out of college. Who has seen them is important. Getting started now is important, grad school not so much. </p>

<p>Classical VP is different. DD is continuing her studies. She will piece together things that will allow her to sing and take lessons while she gets ready for grad school in a year or 2. Then maybe a Young Artist Program and some supporting roles. Everyone that hears her says her voice is like a fine wine, you have to wait for it to age. She has learned that too and her progress has been amazing. But her teachers have kept her away from music that is not age appropriate, even when she was impatient and wanted to, and probably could, sing it. She will be forever grateful to the wisdom of those teachers because she now can start to see the results. </p>

<p>Your question was “is this normal?” From everything I learned, shopping around a classical voice at age 15, no; MT maybe.</p>

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<p>OP: I’m sure everyone supports your idea of a trip to NYC to visit schools and take some trial/sample lessons. Definitely a good idea for gathering information about various schools and teachers. </p>

<p>However, I think that the trip is probably better done by your son and a parent rather than your son and his teacher. It would be highly unusual for a teacher to travel with a student from Texas to NYC for sample lessons. The element of the teacher makes the enterprise sound like it is more about the teacher than the student. </p>

<p>Connections can be important later on when establishing a career, but plenty of musicians get into the very best schools and studios with no connections whatsoever. The top schools recognize talent when they hear it. So I would think of the trips that you take in the terms you have described: information-gathering forays that will help you and your son make informed decisions about places to apply in the future, rather what it sounds like your son’s teacher might be thinking: marketing ploys. You are fortunate to have a teacher that has a strong interest in supporting your son’s development–we may have misread the teacher’s motives; you obviously are in a position to judge them. </p>

<p>Best of luck with the next couple of years!</p>

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<p>Since we don’t know how your son sounds, how unusual he is, I can’t even begin to advise. My son is a tenor, has a BFA MT, was accepted to a number of very fine voice performance (BM) programs but wanted to study MT. What Lorelei and the others here are saying would have applied to him to a T at age 15. However, who is to know if your son isn’t the once in a lifetime phenomenon. I don’t see the harm, taking the NYC trip and checking out options and getting insights. Go along and make a vacation out of it. Don’t hinge a lot on it but look at it as a fact finding mission. </p>

<p>Having come from the midwest to NYC with musician kids 11 years ago, and knowing many who have done the same, I would have to say that it would not have hurt any of the kids I have known to have stayed in their locales as long as there is a fair sized city and good quality music options available there. We did not move for music reasons, and I found that the instructions,opportunities, nurturing, and community were much better in a smaller city than NYC.</p>