is this really fair?

Applying to College
1

This is an outrage. My little brother comes home crying and says he’s been denied admission to AP European history and AP Biology. On the other hand, his friend that goes to a pretty average high school gets into AP Bio and AP world history without a problem. All he did was sign up and got in. Wat is GOING ON. My brother is restricted to take AP courses while his buddy gets to go to AP courses like if they were just laying right in front of him. OMG, I just want to go to my brother’s school and talk to the principal and tell him this unjustified tactic.
My brother’s school’s AP COURses are hard. How do i know this? When I was junior, I went to Harvard Westlake and my friend went to the school my bro is currently attending. My friend gave me notes from his class so i can self study AP Euro. These notes and the books dey were using were…INCREDIBLE. ( i got a 5 using dees notes for studying). anyways. my brother’s friend’s ap courses are a joke. I have my sources. Is this FAIR?!
my brother did manage to get into AP Environmental and AP Computer Science…but seriously, do colleges take note of a school’s difficulty and school’s restrictive policy on AP admission??!

any input will be helpful to help my bro out. I am trying to set my brother up for 10th grade with the best possible position before i leave for college. My plan is, if the school’s difficulty and AP restictive policy is not recognized by colleges and makes my bro’s chances for top schools diminsh, i plan to make sure my brother moves to his friend’s school to even out the playing field.

2

<p>Every high school sends a report (forget the official name) that shows which AP's are offered, how many students took each, etc. The admissions officer will look at your brother in his particular school's environment. However, 2 AP's as a sophomore is great. All that matters is he takes the hardest schedule that is offered to him and he keeps his rank high.</p>

<p>If your brother's AP classes are hard, this will be considered. Colleges also get the grade distribution of both the class and the AP Exam. For example, in European history, two schools could send reports like this:</p>

<p>Mediocre School: 60% A's; avg AP score = 2.2
Excellent High School: 30% A's; avg AP score = 4.1</p>

<p>This would certainly justify the quality of the classes your brother is in.</p>

3

<p>From the two high schools that I've gone to, there are very few restrictions and you can basically sign up for any courses that you want. If you meet the prerequisites, then you can just sign up and the teachers accomodate...</p>

<p>I know this will make you and your brother feel worse, but I'm gonna say it anyways (because I'm evil). I took AP Euro sophomore year, one of- oh, I don't know- 90 students that year across three classes. Our teacher, who I'll add is arguably the best lecturer I've ever had, made it clear to the class at the beginning of the year- "If you get a 4 or 5 on the exam, I will give you A's for both semesters." She gave out a ton of homework and a lot of reading, but I didn't do any of it and the ones I did do were basically what can be considered the 'bare minimum.' I actually managed an 'A' first semester, primarily because of tests, and barely got a B (hmm.. 80% maybe?) second semester. I got my exam back in July and got a 5, so second semester was bumped to an A. Granted, this was at a state of California identified underperforming school, and in the end, only two kids (out of 90) managed at least a 4 or 5- me and one other student (we both got 5's).</p>

<p>There have been several instances on these boards where people have asked if putting something like "AP Scholar with Distinction" should be done at all. To prevent any such suspicions like your "brother's friend's" situation as described above, one should list it (AP Scholar) to squash any suspicions adcom officials might have on your performance on the AP exams (the scores of which aren't required to be reported for admissions purposes) in spite of the fact that virtually all other applicants (assuming one is applying to a super-selective college) might have that same honor listed.</p>

<p>TTG</p>

4

<p>I've never seen a H-W graduate with such poor grammar. Are you for real?</p>

5

<p>All you can do is suggest that your parents talk to the GC and/or principal to see if the decision can be reversed. It's up to high schools to determine who can take their AP courses. The schools with the toughest AP courses that result in students do exceptionally well on the exam tend to be the schools that have stricter standards about who gets admitted to the AP courses. Class size restrictions and the # of AP courses also plays a role in terms of how hard it is to take AP courses.</p>

<p>Your brother also could take the AP tests after self studying.</p>

<p>The other school that you mention may take in all comers because it needs students in order to justify having an AP program. That also results in easy AP classes and low pass rates, but that's the price the school pays for being able to offer any AP classes at all.</p>

6

<p>I'ts my understanding that high schools can restrict AP registration pretty much any way they want...usually it's for class space (they only have X number of teachers for a course and are trying to keep the class size manageable, so there are only so many seats available)...rising seniors should get first crack at the APs they'd like, then the jrs., then the rising sophs. Your brother still has 2 more years to take as many APs as he can.</p>

<p>Is this common for a teacher to essentially 'backdate' your course grade? At our HS, grades are turned in by early June, end of yr. grade reports are out to the colleges by end of June - AP grades are not posted until early July, so how would that work if you took the course as a senior?</p>

7

<p>many schools have restrictions for AP classes and honors classes including my own. if there was a testing/application process to get into the class, then it doesn't sound like there is much of a problem. to put it simply, your brother just didn't make it based on his application just like the college application process. If it was just a random selection then there is a problem and you should contact the guidance counselor.</p>

8

<p>I agree with everything that has been said. </p>

<p>In a nutshell, he is either being kept out of the classes for one of three reasons: 1) scheduling conflicts between the courses that he chose 2) the classes filled up and there is not enough space for everyone 3) they have decided that he isn't a good enough student to sign up for that many AP classes.</p>

<p>The only way to get people at a public high school to do anything is to get the parents involved (I'm a parent). If it is because of reason 1, you might be able to switch courses. If it is because of reason 2, you are out of luck. If it is because of reason 3, a parent talking to the GC or assistant principal can probably get something done. </p>

<p>On the other hand, four AP classes is a lot. The AP Environmental Science course is not that highly respected (also AP Studio Art). You might try switching that course for a different AP course.</p>

9

<p>Came home crying over an AP class? You sure he's old enough to be in high school?</p>

10

<p>The high school may deny access to the course but they cannot deny access to the exam.....many students take the exams and have never taken the course whether they were denied of just could not fit all the AP courses into their schedule.</p>

11

<p>peck191. He's 12. He started high school early. He came home crying because I think it is the first time he ever felt defeated from anything.</p>

12

<p>At my D's high school, they only allow so many AP classes per year. And each AP class has a pretty strict policy for taking the class, grades, recommendations, etc.</p>

<p>And 12 in high school? There might be a maturity concern here with too much on his plate...think about that...that kind of full AP schedule is tough for even the most mature 15 year olds...and no matter how intelligent your brother may be, maybe there was some concern with regards to his ability to handle the load. Often, teachers need to make the recommendations for the class- based on past work. I am not saying this is the case, but just something to think about.</p>

13

<p>Good call, citygirlsmom...sometimes just because we CAN do something, doesn't mean we SHOULD do it.</p>

<p>Sounds like your brother will graduate from HS at age 14 or 15....will he really be ready to go away to college then? It's nice of you to want to go fight his battles for him, but shouldn't he be able to handle that himself in high school? What I mean is...you can't play it both ways....as in he's so bright and advanced that he's jumped so far ahead academically, but then he needs you and your parents to take care of all the details because he's not mature enough to handle them. Perhaps the HS admin are seeing something(s) in your brother that you - as his family - are too close to see clearly.</p>

14

<p>That's exactly how it is at my school. I have a 2.8 GPA, and able to take w/e AP courses I want. For instance I will be taking 4 AP classes next year. Another kid I know, with a 3.3 GPA, whom has a different counselor, was unable to take any AP courses, because the counselor felt, his grades weren't high enough.</p>

<p>My counselor might not know as much about college admissions as I would like, but he does give me the chance to excel. And that's why I like the guy.</p>

<p>Best thing to do, would be to appeal if you can. I know at my school that is possible.</p>

15

<p>"Is this common for a teacher to essentially 'backdate' your course grade? At our HS, grades are turned in by early June, end of yr. grade reports are out to the colleges by end of June - AP grades are not posted until early July, so how would that work if you took the course as a senior?"</p>

<p>To answer Beachy's question- this really doesn't happen that much at all. Our school operates on the same timeline as yours, so grades would've been turned in when AP exam scores roll out. However, AP Euro was only available for sophomores so things worked out fine. All our teacher had to do was go down to the district office and make the changes personally. I only know of one other instance, where a rising junior talked to his AP Biology about changing his 'D' (apparently he had a problem with doing any homework) to a 'C,' and she eventually changed it after the summer because he managed to get a '5' on the exam; he's now attending Georgetown. <em>shrug</em></p>

<p>"On the other hand, four AP classes is a lot. The AP Environmental Science course is not that highly respected (also AP Studio Art). You might try switching that course for a different AP course."</p>

<p>In response to dufus's statement, I'd just like to contend that AP Studio Art and the foreign language AP courses are, actually, the most desired courses in the curriculum. Not everyone can sign up for AP Studio Art due to the fact that not everyone can handle that level of art. And if you've never taken an art class and you turn in a portfolio for the exam? Don't even bother. The class, simply on the transcript, shows you've reached a certain skill level in the visual arts and adds a dimensional to one's application- not something like orchestra or instrument, which are overrepresented in some schools' applicant pools. </p>

<p>TTG</p>

16

<p>Wow, he is young!! 12 for a sophomore!</p>

<p>I agree that 2 APs are quite good for a sophomore. And the decision was probably based on some legitimate rationale. On the other hand, if you really want it to happen, parent petition may do the trick.</p>

<p>It's great that you want to help out with his academic career. However, loading him up with rigorous courses isn't necessarily the best thing. He should probably take the time to find something he really likes and participate, or just hang out with friends and have fun -- enjoy school life (and childhood) for a little bit longer. And maybe just start prepping a little bit for SATs and stuff.</p>

<p>How many of us really thought about academics and college admissions at the age when we were a 7th grader?</p>

<p>Anyway, do what you think is best for him in all regards. It's ok to run into a wall sometimes. But it's not when you don't know how to get back up and go around it; many bright kids can't do that whereas those that aren't constantly acheiving highly can cope. He should be proud that he's acheived so much at such a young age.</p>

17

<p>There was a freshman in my school who wanted to take AP Chem. but the teacher felt he was to immature, thus he was unable to get in.</p>

18

<p>12? for a sophomore? that's sophomoric-as well as a complete joke. I'm sorry but i need to vouch my vehement dissaproval for your parents inclination towards sadistic torture? Not to mention, is this some kind of community participating rite of passage-his FRIEND is in high schol as well? Regardless of ability, I just think this is extreme over-exertion, a complete destruction of the childhood innocence. This is just taking it ten steps -way- too far. I mean, the level of dedication on this board is very admirable, but when I see **** like this, I really flip. My advice? Homeschool. he'll advance MUCH quicker if his intellect really matches the level of ability you say it does, and he wont be restricted from making friends, because he'll have more time to participate in extracurricular activities, actually a 'bonus'. So maybe this force-fed foie gras a la preteen isnt a total loss; if you stop and smell the decaffinated coffee of reality. </p>

<p>thanks.</p>

<p>just voicing my opinion.</p>

19

<p>Sorry - I can't get around this backdating the grade thing - it's essentially a lie.....for some reason you didn't do the work during the year - didn't hand in homework, didn't participate in class, blew off tests - whatever...but if you ace the AP exam, your grade for the year will get bumped?? Why not just forget the class and self-study for the test? </p>

<p>This has so many repercussions as far as GPA, class rank, etc. It's pulling a bait and switch on college adcoms...and possibly makes one eligible for some terrific merit aid from some schools that, if your true grades were represented, you'd not be in the running for....something that requires a NMS finalist standing AND a certain GPA or class rank.</p>

<p>Makes me also wonder about the character and the work ethic of a teacher who'd participate in (let alone actually intitiate!) this practice...too lazy to do his own work during the school year to engage students in the class - just lets them slide, instead of having the backbone to post a 'D' grade or two when deserved for a wake-up call to those with a bad case of senioritis.</p>

20

<p>beachy,</p>

<p>I initiated a response to simply tell you that "back-dating" (as you call it) simply exists out there, although it is rare and operates on an individual basis.</p>

<p>The irony is that it is not the teacher's fault in any of the cases I presented. I attended two different high schools and the teachers that bumped up the grade in both cases were easily regarded as the most difficult teachers at their respective schools. This is no excuse, and shouldn't be considered any form of justification, but it's just a fact I felt needed to be tossed into the mix. It requires an effort on the part of the teacher to go up to the district and adjust the grade accordingly and no, it's not simply a matter of re-bubbling a scoresheet.</p>

<p>To defend my own upping of the grade, the teacher had made the announcement at the very beginning of the year, explicitly detailing the necessary requirement- getting a 4 or 5 on the exam- to get consideration for the grade adjustment. You must remember the fact that this was at an underperforming school, which is a world's different from what many posters here understand as the norm for education. I will restate the fact, not merely my own random polling from friends, that only two students managed to get a 4 or 5 on the exam my year out of the 90 students across three classes; I was, in fact, the only person who was the recipient of my teacher's kind gesture (the other student had A's both semesters). Now, if our school had the success rates even somewhat-comparable to some of the schools kids hail from these boards, then it might be a different story. Our teacher recognized that this could've provided the necessary motivation needed to for students to take the initiative and push themselves beyond the class curriculum which, in fact, was what propelled me to my AP score. Had she (the teacher) chosen to institute this at some point during the year, then yes, it would've been cause for suspicion. But by implementing this policy at the very beginning of school, it allowed persons like myself to plan my time towards studying for the exam as a first priority, the grade from which would determine my class grades as opposed to it being the other way around (working hard in class to get good grades, which would produce a solid AP exam).</p>

<p>I hope you understand a few of the reasons my AP Euro tried it this way. If you don't then I could, I suppose, try to explain it further, but it'd involve delving into the dynamics of an underperforming school. To briefly show what it's like in terms of academics- on any given year, only one-to-three students manage at least a 1400 on the old SAT I (in a class of 850 at the start of freshmen year, which falls to roughly 575 by graduation time), no one has heard of the concept of self-studying for the AP exam, I only recall one student taking SAT prep courses; my geometry class freshmen year had 39 students in the class, only three of whom were freshmen (including myself). All the rules and what you know and understand in regards to high school is thrown out the window- I'm just glad my teacher picked up on it and allowed persons like myself to achieve in spite of all the circumstances.</p>

<p>I know it's difficult to explain, and I presume it'd be a lot more difficult to understand if you've never been around this sort of situation. <em>shrug</em></p>

<p>-TTG</p>