No AP courses taken in junior year - how damaging is it?

<p>My S2 is a rising HS junior. His schools offers AP only in Junior and Senior years. His school selects/permits a portion of students to take AP course. Not every one is allowed. Also, without a stellar math grade, no APs are allowed on any of the science related fields. </p>

<p>Is it normal in other high schools also?</p>

<p>For some reason, he was not selected to take history and english AP courses in the Junior year even though he got A+ in both classes (honors). Even though he got the highest score in biology, he was not permitted to take AP in that subject matter since his math grade was not great (not his forte).</p>

<p>I am afraid this is going to disadvantage him in the admission game. So, how damaging is it that his transcript is going to show no AP classes taken during the junior year? Just to give you an idea about his aspiration..... He is very interested in DC schools. Georgetown is a reach. George Washington U is something he really would like to get into, and I think well within the "match" category.....</p>

<p>If he takes the AP exams on his own, will it somehow lessen the disadvantage?</p>

<p>Yes, your son could be hurt by not taking AP classes junior year although his school offers them.</p>

<p>No, my sons’ schools didn’t make decisions like that. If a student had the kind of grades your son did in honors classes, the student would have been allowed to take AP classes in those subjects. </p>

<p>“For some reason, he was not selected to take history and english AP courses in the Junior year even though he got A+ in both classes (honors). Even though he got the highest score in biology, he was not permitted to take AP in that subject matter since his math grade was not great (not his forte).”</p>

<p>Doesn’t make sense to me that your son wasn’t allowed to take AP classes in subjects he got an A plus in when taking honors. If I were you, I’d be going to the GC office in person to get that decision changed. If you happen to be an Asian immigrant, I am wondering whether your son was discriminated against because the school incorrectly assumed that an immigrant’s child wouldn’t be able to do well in AP subjects related to verbal abilities. Meanwhile, there are plenty of immigrants and immigrants’ kids who are excelling in AP classes in English and history, including American history. </p>

<p>It’s normal for parents to talk to GCs in this kind of situation and even to appeal the decisions by going to the principal, so don’t be shy about advocating for your child. That’s the American way! It may be that your child wasn’t put into the AP class because undeserving students with lower grades got in due to having very pushy parents. </p>

<p>I wish that I had known to advocate that my son get put into a new higher level IB math class at his high school. My son had been easily getting A grades in the IB math classes, and he was in the highest level of math class that was offered. When a new even higher math class was offered, the teacher told him that only a few students were being offered that class and those students were some who had extraordinary math skills, even more than my son had.</p>

<p>I didn’t protest the decision because neither my husband nor I are extraordinarily good at math, and I knew the parents of the kids who got the highest level math class were math professors.</p>

<p>The next year, when my son again was sailing through another math with the same teacher, the teacher told my son that the teacher realized that my son was extraordinarily talented in math and had the ability to take the highest level math class. Then, though, was too late. My son didn’t have room in his senior schedule to take it. Since then, he has moved on to other interests so hasn’t bothered to take any math in college.</p>

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<p>It’s not the policy at our HS. AFAIK, anyone can choose to sign up for an AP class. I suppose in some cases they might be counseled against it. I do know one kid whose request to move into Honors English was not “allowed” in the sense that the teacher of his regular English class refused to recommend it. I don’t know how hard they pushed. Frankly, knowing the kid pretty well for over a decade I think the teacher was right in saying that he would have been in way over his head. I think she convinced the parents that an A in CP English does not necessarily translate into readiness for Honors.</p>

<p>I would suggest that you not simply accept these decisions, but go to the school and discuss it with the departments in question and/or guidance: whoever makes the decision. Find out what the process is, what the criteria are.</p>

<p>In the case of the sciences, they may have seen that kids who have not been up to snuff mathematically have historically had a hard time in those classes. (I know that was the case with incoming 9th graders at one point at our HS, which led to a revamping of the middle school math program to ensure that kids aiming at the honors science track had the math they needed.) Despite this, the fact that your son got the highest grade in bio ought to mean something for admission to AP Bio, if not in admission to AP Chem or Physics.</p>

<p>In the case of History and English, I can’t comprehend why a student who received an A+ in honors classes would be held back from APs. You need to find out why, and find out how you can affect the outcome. If there was a placement test, for example, you should be able to arrange for him to retake it when school starts since the results clearly do not reflect his outstanding grades. Then you will need to arrange for him to have tutoring or take a distance learning class or whatever it takes to ace the placement test.</p>

<p>Don’t just accept this, especially if your son wants to take the AP classes and wants to try to get into top 20ish schools.</p>

<p>If the courses are offered and your S is interested in taking them, then <em>he</em> should be the one contacting the GC. At this stage of the game, I would get involved only if S was not making headway w/the bureaucracy. If he runs into closed doors, I would not hestitate to express my concerns, in writing, ASAP, to be followed up by a meeting if necessary.</p>

<p>S2 wanted to take an AP science course soph year that was normally open to juniors and seniors. He went to the GC, told her why he was interested in it, and he got in (and did quite well). </p>

<p>I am not fond of gatekeeping for advanced level courses. If a student cares enough to make an effort to get into the class, odds are he/she will do the work necessary. My guess is that your S could handle AP Bio just fine, too. There’s not that much math involved! AP Physics C involves nothing more than some Calc (AB or BC); Chem less than that. AP Physics B is non-calc based. Unless your S is really struggling in math (and I’m not talking about Bs), these are likely not beyond him.</p>

<p>It’s all very well and good if the student has the type of personality and self-confidence that enables him to advocate for himself effectively. A lot of kids do not–especially when dealing with adults who have just put him down so thoroughly. I would expect the parents to at least be involved in the advocating process in most cases at this age.</p>

<p>Neither of my kids are particularly assertive in this realm, but junior year of HS was a good time for them to start learning some of these skills. We found out this year that it is definitely a process, and while a kid may be able to advocate in a public forum with ease and confidence, it was a whole 'nuther story when he got into a jam with a course. He was too paralyzed to act and it cost him.</p>

<p>We generally talk to our kids about ways to approach a GC/teacher and what arguments they might raise, but they actually go in and do the work/write the email.</p>

<p>In our school, if a parent says they want a kid in a class, that kid goes in the class. The school might put up a stink, but the parent has ultimate say. </p>

<p>I’d be speaking with the guidance counselors to see if I could get my child into at least one AP class.</p>

<p>D’s HS has the policy that all students must have the concurrence of their current teacher before they’re allowed into an AP class (10th grade english teacher before AP Eng for example.) For those AP’s w/o previous class (Psyc) the GC and instructor get together to decide.</p>

<p>So your situation is not unique. </p>

<p>I agree w/ the others, you and your son should ask for an appointment with his GC and try to get in the bio class he wants.</p>

<p>to clarify:</p>

<p>yes, both I and my husbands are immigrants. But both of us are Ph.D.s working in professional fields. My kids are born here in USA, both of them extremely articulate and poised. We know how the system works very well, and generally very assertive in making sure that they system works for us.</p>

<p>My son was the first one to appeal the decision not to let him take the AP classes, even without our prodding. When that did not work out, we also talked to school about it. </p>

<p>They told us that decisions are absolutely non-reversible. They explained that they have limited spots, and considered teachers recommendation and the “rationale” the students were required to write about why they should take the AP course. The teachers gave him a good recommendation to be included in the AP course. Apparently, S2 did not write good essays on the spot (it was the on-the-spot essays, not take home essays).</p>

<p>So, if the general consensus is that this practice is not normal, perhaps, when the application time frame comes, he should send a letter explaining the reason why he did not take AP courses and perhaps take the exams on his own… do you think it will work?</p>

<p>Can you go to the school board? The policy doesn’t make any sense. It’s a very unfair way of determining who can get into AP classes. It also would be very difficult to prove that there’s no bias in evaluating students’ essays or that students who write what’s the teachers believe are acceptable essays under such circumstances are the students who’d do best in the AP classes.</p>

<p>I think that if you provide the school board with information about how AP classes are filled by other districts, you could make a good case --as would the fact that your son’s grades are stellar, and you and your husband have doctorates, which would add to your credibility.</p>

<p>If your son takes the AP exams on his own, that could help with his college admissions as could his taking college courses over the summer or through distance learning. </p>

<p>An explanation letter from your son also could help if it specifies how the school selects students for AP classes (I think that admissions officers at top colleges would agree with me and others here that the policy doesn’t make sense), that your son unsuccessfully tried to appeal, and that he took college classes and did other things to challenge himself even though he wasn’t allowed to take AP classes junior year.</p>

<p>As far as the OP’s initial question of whether not taking any AP classes in the junior year is damaging, I would think the answer might depend upon the the school selection. It might be damaging to the selective schools such as Georgetown and other schools that place a heavy emphasis on academic rigor, but it is not an automatic rejection. Standardized test scores, ec’s and final grades also play a huge part. My D did not take any AP classes in her junior year and has her first and only AP in her senior year. We asked some of the schools that she is considering whether that alone would damage her chances and, in most cases, we were told that “while we like to see a student take the most challenging courses available, we also consider a lot of other factors”.</p>

<p>Elite schools , and even a tier or two lower, often want to see that you have taken the most demanding courses offered. </p>

<p>The following is from University of GA’s website (my latest favorite Admissions website!)
“GPA and rigor of curriculum weigh roughly three to two to standardized tests in predicting academic success at UGA. Effectively, this means that a student with a 4.0 GPA in a superior curriculum of Advanced Placement (AP) or International Baccalaureate (IB) courses might be admitted with an SAT score at or below 1000. Yet, another student with a 3.0 GPA and an SAT score of 1400 might not be admitted, if the student opts for no more than a standard college prep curriculum with few if any Honors, AP or IB courses.”
[University</a> of Georgia :: Undergraduate Admissions :: First Year Admission Criteria](<a href=“http://www.admissions.uga.edu/article/first_year_admission_criteria.html]University”>http://www.admissions.uga.edu/article/first_year_admission_criteria.html)</p>

<p>While the explanations you’ve offered on this thread may be true, there is the appearance of something missing. I would suggest you push the GC’s much harder or get better answers on why an A+ honors student didn’t qualify for the AP classes.</p>

<p>Yes it will hurt his admissions</p>

<p>Go make it happen.</p>

<p>Some schools are hanging on to the gatekeeper power to the detriment of students. For power sake. And because they do not have enough qualified teachers to teach at the higher level. By limiting access to high level classes they protect the jobs of inferior teacher. </p>

<p>Go make a stink.</p>

<p>Our state has a couple of high schools with highly-qualified teachers that offer AP or other advanced classes via distance learning, for those students who can’t get those classes in their own schools. Might there be something similar in your state?</p>

<p>I definitely think that it would be a disadvantage at admissions time - and I would keep right on complaining all the way to the school board. A letter from an attorney requesting information on their selection process as well as the demographics of those selected in the last 5 years might also get a reaction.</p>

<p>My son didn’t any any AP courses until his senior year and got accepted to GWU, NYU, BU, Bard and a list of others. Most schools say they want to see students challenge themselves. That means more than just AP classes.</p>

<p>I agree with the other posters who suggested taking the matter to the school board, if necessary. Before that, try meeting with the GC and the principal. The policy seems very arbitrary, and it doesn’t make sense that, with his grades, he is being excluded from AP. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe the school has limited space in AP classes. In that case, a note from the GC on the recommendation could make note of that fact, that there was no room for some qualified students in AP classes. </p>

<p>It’s very different at my D’s hs. Anyone can take any AP class. They only suggest that a student drop from AP to regular if the student does not have at least a C by the end of the first nine weeks.</p>

<p>He sounds like he could self-study and do very well. Another possibility is taking the AP classes online. I don’t know how that would work for Bio, but it should be fine for APUSH. Good luck.</p>

<p>thank you everybody including those who PM’ed me. I very much appreciate it.</p>

<p>The issue was clearly the limited space. GC made it clear that they simply cannot accommodate everybody who wants to take APs.</p>

<p>I will have another round of discussion and perhaps escalate it based on your input.</p>

<p>Failing that, he probably needs to at least take AP exams on his own. </p>

<hr>

<p>Related question: do other schools also “package” math and other science related honor classes? Again, since he was weak in Math, he was also barred from honor classes in biology, which he loves and excels.</p>

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<p>“Related question: do other schools also “package” math and other science related honor classes? Again, since he was weak in Math, he was also barred from honor classes in biology, which he loves and excels.”</p>

<p>I haven’t seen that in my sons’ schools, but I wasn’t allowed to take biology as a high school freshman because I was not at the top of the class in math even though I was excellent in science. </p>

<p>I can see packaging science/math classes for, for instance, physics, which uses a lot of math. I don’t think, however, it’s a reasonable thing to do for bio.</p>

<p>The only class that was “packaged” at our HS was AP Physics - it required calculus (could be taken concurrently). That makes sense, since AP Physics is calculus-based.</p>

<p>The rules at your HS seem to mainly exist in order to justify limiting the number of kids allowed in APs. These rules make no sense, and are unfair to the students with high aspirations who don’t get to take APs as a result.</p>