<p>I've been involved with the admissions process, both for undergraduate admissions and professional school admissions. Because of that, I've been reading this forum since about 2004 (can't believe it's been 6 years now).</p>
<p>One thing I've noticed is that transferring is becoming increasingly popular year after year. And what's worse is that I see people whose sole motivation is prestige. These types of transfers, from what I've seen on the transfer forum, are becoming increasingly commonplace.</p>
<p>Even among law school admissions, transfer admissions is becoming more and more popular. </p>
<p>I think we're entering an era where prestige is becoming so highly valued that people can no longer appreciate the institution they're attending, no matter how good it actually is. I see prospective transfers inquiring about how hard it is to go from a "lower Ivy" to an "upper Ivy" (seriously, when did we start making these distinctions? It seems like one made by the prestige-obsessed).</p>
<p>Of course, there could be other explanations for this "increase": the data might just have a higher report rate, since more and more people are finding their way to this website and asking questions. But still, I can't help but shake the feeling that transfer admissions used to be a much easier process 10 years ago, and that today it's become so popularized that it's almost as difficult, if not more, than getting into school as a freshman.</p>
<p>I see an obvious link with how hard it’s become to get into top schools, period.</p>
<p>A few decades ago, there was no college admissions industry as there is now. Admissions standards, and admissions expectations, were much lower. How many times do you hear parents reminisce about how they only applied to three schools when they were young, and how so much has changed for their children?</p>
<p>Honestly, more people are talking about lower Ivy v. upper Ivy because there is a qualitative difference in their selectivity now.</p>
<p>I think this can easily be tied to globalization.</p>
<p>As other countries who we have used as our b*tches for generations (yes, this even includes the USA and Canada as we both were once colonies) begin to develop, increase labor prices, and rise to western standards of living, us Americans have to find a way to “stay ahead”. </p>
<p>The main way we do that is through education level. Being a winner-take-all democracy, we also also inadvertantely bred with a competitive, stomp on you competition and spit tin their face, attitude. Attend any sports match or drive on the Jersey Turnpike to witness this in action. Everyone nowadays is a narcissist, always wanting what best suits them, NOW, and preferrably while demeaning others in the process.</p>
<p>As technology rises, and we lose civility through lack of emotional connection (I bet anyone reading this post sees me not as a human, but much like they would a column in the opinion section of a newspaper: a screaming head with an opinion…), we also begin to lack respect for anything that is not ourselves. Dating and social interaction is less frequent, interaction between people is now more hostile, violent, … and competitive. :(</p>
<p>Thus, we are the product of our world from 1990-2010, a snapshot into time. Few would argue that these years have been some of the most intense and confusing in history, with misconceptions and ideology feeding more into the mainstream by the second. </p>
I too have been on CC for quite a long time (since the old forum, in fact), and I have not really noticed a significant difference in transfer rates. Admittedly I tend to steer clear of the transfer forums, 90% of which focus around the UCs. </p>
<p>Speaking only for my own college, I noticed freshmen would chat about the other schools they were admitted to during the first week or so of orientation. After that, everyone settled in…and promptly forgot about pretty much every other school. Come graduation, you could slice a random person and have them bleed the school colors. </p>
<p>I’ve noticed this on CC as well. One prolific poster was rejected at Chicago and came back eagerly recruiting others for Case Western, and a Yale reject returned raving about her experience at Michigan. Yet another poster turned down Yale for a scholarship at Vanderbilt and hasn’t regretted it for a second. People tend to flourish rather well wherever they end up.</p>
<p>It’s always a bit sad seeing posters denigrating excellent schools that deserve scorn from nobody, but one can’t expect much from high schoolers.</p>
<p>As they say “the grass is always greener on the other side.” </p>
<p>As a recent transfer who “traded up,” I transferred for a few reasons. Some reasons were prestige related and some were fit related. My first reason to transfer was that it’s cheaper for me to go to my new school than my old school. I know a few other transfers that also transferred because they wanted to go to a cheaper school. Second, procuring a job in a competitive industry, such as finance or consulting, will be easier coming from my new school. Third, I feel like I’m now with a more motivated peer group. And lastly, while I was content with my old schools, I feel like my current school will prepare me better for the future.</p>
<p>I tend to think that those that transfer for pure prestige related reasons are the minority and you only notice them because they tend to be more vocal than those that transfer for more legitimate reasons, such as fit and expenses.</p>
<p>I had a few friends who “traded up” because financial aid was better. I wouldn’t doubt the fact that sticker price is the same amongst a large swath of schools but actual out-of-pocket is quite different for some people due to aid policies has helped to push more people to transfer.</p>
<p>The friend I’m thinking of went from Parsons to RISD, lost a year of classes, and still will graduate with less debt and is at a school that is better for her area of interest.</p>
<p>kwu – I don’t see that. I see a desire for affirmation that prestige is assumed to give, with entitlement a minor issue.</p>
<p>What affirmation? Affirmation hat the thousands of hours of study on weekends over the prior four years, when most students are chilling, was after all worth it. That the academic competitions, community service hours done SOLEY for the college app, lost hours of sleep, foregone social life, were after all worth it.</p>
<p>How would you expect one to feel after all those sacrifices (after all we’re talking about people who do NOT enjoy school and learning for learning’s sake) if the reward is admittance to the same school that admitted fellow classmates who hardly broke a sweat through high school? I would almost expect such a person to attempt to right that wrong as soon as possible and restore their self esteem!</p>
<p>These students are looking for affirmation that their sacrifices were justified, and that they are in fact BETTER than those attending lower ranked schools. It’s a self esteem issue at its core.</p>
<p>Admissions have become much tougher to get into. The quality of students admitted hasn’t changed drastically at most schools, but in terms of odds of admission, different worlds altogether. Below are the changes in acceptance rates in the schools I applied to back when I applied (1991) and today.</p>
<p>Brown University: 25%, 15%
Columbia University: 35%, 10%
Cornell University: 40%, 20%
Duke University: 35%, 20%
Georgetown University: 25%, 20%
Northwestern University: 35%, 25%
University of California-Berkeley: 40%, 20%
University of Chicago: 50%, 25%
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 65%, 45%
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill: 50%, 35%
University of Pennsylvania: 40%, 15%</p>
<p>“How would you expect one to feel after all those sacrifices (after all we’re talking about people who do NOT enjoy school and learning for learning’s sake) if the reward is admittance to the same school that admitted fellow classmates who hardly broke a sweat through high school?”</p>
<p>That scenario rarely happens Dunnin. There are three ways this could happen:</p>
<p>1) A student did not apply to an appropriate portfolio of schools, missing the crucial match and safe match schools
2) A student was very unlucky, getting rejected by schols that would have ordinarily accepted such a student
3) A student isn’t academically inclined, in which case, he/she must study much harder to just keep up with the average student</p>
<p>Bottom line, you aren’tgoing to have many 4.0 students with 2100 SAT scores end up at a university ranked out of the top 50 unless they really screwed the pooch. All top 50 schools have a significantly large percentage of students who pushed themselves hard in high school and graduated among the top 5% of their class.</p>
<p>This is a case of a freshman at Notre Dame wanting to transfer to Ivy League schools such as Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown.</p>
<p>It’s outrageous, to say the least.</p>
<p>Notre Dame is one of the nation’s most reputable and desirable schools. It might be scoffed at by the new, rising elite, but it is plenty respected by the old elite, and middle and working class families.</p>
<p>However, if one sees ND, Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown as peers, as one should, then one quickly realizes that it does boil down to prestige and a neediness to accommodate the shifting shape of prestige.</p>
<p>Alexandre is right. Disregarding anomalies who fall into the abyss due to poor decisions or extreme misfortune, each student, generally speaking, ends up where he or she ultimately belongs. A school like Notre Dame falls in the top national university group and also, very fortunately, is reputable enough that it doesn’t make sense for its students to harbor inferiority complexes.</p>
<p>I maintain that the problem is an overbearing sense of entitlement–but the root of the problem, I admit, is a deeply misconceived notion of prestige, that trivial/negligible differences in prestige among top institutions are more than what they are.</p>
Say that on CC and you’ll get burned at the stake. </p>
<p>You forget this is the site that champions “HYPS,” “AWS,” “lower Ivies,” “world-class publics,” “public Ivies,” and other such appalling appellations.</p>
<p>This is the site where any department not ranked in the top 10 is considered unworthy of consideration or inclusion on a thread.</p>
<p>This is the site where Emory is suggested as a safety school for Harvard.</p>
<p>Ah, well there it is! So the problem must be triple-layered. I wonder if your analysis is really that complex, or if you’re just squirming to fit the facts to your point of view.</p>
<p>And there you go ridiculing those who distinguish between ND and Dartmouth, all the while drawing divisions between the “old” and “new elite” to make your point.</p>
<p>Prestige-seekers do not bother me. What’s truly obnoxious about these boards are the indignant moralizers for whom prestige is far below their tastes, but who manage to see it everywhere and identify it with everything.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with DunninLA. Gaining admissions is just a lot harder these days, and students want validation for their efforts. Sorry to point it out, but Emory is a safety school for Harvard.</p>
<p>Not necessarily because I went to one of the most difficult public schools in the D/FW metroplex and a ton of kids at my school got screwed over for college admissions because of their poor class rank, myself included. Had I gone to a less competitive and/or easier school, I would’ve been more successful when applying to colleges. I think this is the case for a lot of kids that go to wealthy and ulta-competitive high schools. And while colleges say that they factor in the strength of the school when looking at applicants, it’s impossible to try to quantify how a kid who finished in the top 40% would’ve finished at a less-competitive and easier school. In the end, going to the harder school might prepare you better for the SAT/ACTs, but you’re GPA and class rank will suffer. GPA and Class Rank > SAT/ACTs.</p>
<p>I don’t really agree with the idea that most kids end up where they “belong” because college admissions is a total crapshoot. There are tons of cases where kids with greater potential, in and out of the classroom, get passed over for legacies, athletes and so on. In the end, college admissions, at least for the tip top schools, is part hard work and part luck. Basically, there are tons of kids that might “belong” at a really good school who end up going to “lesser” schools where they might not “belong.”</p>
<p>It’s because some one who is at a very prestigious university is assuming that an Ivy league school will be more challenging simply because the schools are in the Ivy League. It doesn’t really make much sense unless the person really doesn’t like ND, which he didn’t specify.</p>
(imagine grinning smiley here)</p>