Is UMich - Ann Arbor at par with the Ivy?

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>I agree with Tyler (surprise! Surprise!)! ;)</p>

<p>But seriously Giants, the top 25% at Michigan have SAT scores over 1430 and ACT scores over 31. That’s equal to the top 50% of the students at Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Penn. Another 25% of the students at Michigan have SAT scores in the 1330-1420 range and ACT scores in 29-31 range. That’s equal to the 50th%ile to 25th%ile of students at Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Penn. In other words, 50% of the student at Michigan are equal to the top 75% of Ivy League students…statistically speaking anyway.</p>

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<p>I think you’re fudging the statistics Alexandre. I don’t have much experience with these other schools but when we compare Michigan to my school Duke(similar student body to Penn and Columbia), we find that:</p>

<p>CLASS OF 2012 INCOMING PROFILE
Michigan- SAT COMPOSITE 25TH TO 75TH PERCENTILE: 1920-2180
Duke Arts & Sciences- SAT COMPOSITE 25TH TO 75TH PERCENTILE: 2030-2310
Duke Engineering- SAT COMPOSITE 25TH TO 75TH PERCENTILE: 2090-2320</p>

<p>Michigan-ACT: 28-32
Duke Arts & Sciences-ACT: 29-33
Duke Engineering-ACT: 32-34</p>

<p>So, we have an SAT difference of a 100 points and an aggregate ACT difference of about 2 points if you combine Duke’s two separate schools. IMO, this difference is staggering and is what separates a good school from a truly elite school. The difference is further exacerbated since at the higher end of the SAT scoring range, small differences in scores are more significant.</p>

<p>I don’t have time to do the research for Penn and Columbia but I assume the results will be the same. Only the top 25% of the Michigan student body can truly compete with the average Penn, Duke or Columbia student.</p>

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<p>Ring of fire, those are stats are for ACCEPTED students, not matriculated students. </p>

<p>Moreover, Alexandre has already gone over in depth the discrepancy in SAT averages between Michigan and the various other schools. Clearly, you didn’t take the time to read this thread.</p>

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<p>Repeatedly stated on this form that I think UM-Ann Arbor student body is brilliant, though saying it’s par with University of Pennslyvania etc… I consistenly disagree.</p>

<p>Plus I also would mention just because the statistics of these schools ACT/ SAT and GPA for rolled admission show a certain percentage with this score and GPA, doesn’t mean all those students are at the top of their college class. Well ofcourse they are the top of the list when showing statistics, but speaking of Ivy League schools… I’m sure there are many students who entered from some of the most rigious high schools in the nation, and could have graduate with a A ( or sometimes even B+) GPA at a lesser rigious high school. That statement applies for the Ivy schools and UM-Ann Arbor. May not be explaining it well, but once students enter the university freshmen class, the top students or percentage of students who could have gotten a 4.0 at a average high school ( or just students who are really smart) appears more. So when your talking about measuring the Ivys and UM-Ann Arbor with those statistics etc… it’s sometiems can likely be unaccurate when your speaking of the student body in those ways all of you are.</p>

<p>(Re-read whats above, didn’t explain it completely well… but thats my statement)</p>

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<p>Though likely the students from the most rigious high schools are attending Ivy Leagues. UM-Ann Arbor in fields I have seen ranked above some Ivy Leagues, though overall I don’t think it’s at par with University of Pennslyvania etc ( including top 25%)…</p>

<p>( Coming from a student who prefers UM-Ann Arbor over Penn)</p>

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<p>CCRunner, I think YOU NEED TO READ THIS THREAD BETTER.
Post #35: "
4) If you look at UM’s website (Office of Undergraduate Admissions: About Michigan) it also stated that “Middle 50th Percentile of the Admitted Class” not enrolled class.
So, your statement is false, especially because it comes from their website. "</p>

<p>Start reading what the website says!!! Your a hypocrite because clearly you didn’t take the time to read this thread and especially because this is your first post on this thread. Alexandre said that it was the enrolling class but I said that it wasn’t and so does the website.
[Office</a> of Undergraduate Admissions: About Michigan](<a href=“http://www.admissions.umich.edu/about/]Office”>Explore & Visit | University of Michigan Office of Undergraduate Admissions)</p>

<p>it clearly says “Middle 50th Percentile of the Admitted Class”
NOT “Middle 50th Percent of the ENROLLING Class”</p>

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<p>who in here actually worked professionally and understand that SAT scores and high school gpa or high school in general is BS?</p>

<p>I raise my hand.</p>

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<p>Here <a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;

<p>This is the link to the common data set. Item C9 speaks of the ENROLLED student body.
Middle 50% ACT: 27-31
44.1% of the class scored a 30-36 composite on the ACT
21.5% scored above a 700 on the SAT CR
45.9% scored over a 700 on the SAT Math</p>

<p>92% graduated in the top 10% of their graduating class. (note that Michigan emphasizes rank strongly over test scores)
The percent of students from public high schools was unavailable.
The size of Michigan’s 2008 freshman class is 5595
2467 students in the freshman class scored above a 30 (or equivalent SAT provided students who submit ACT are as smart as those who submit SAT, which probably sells Michigan short as students who submit SAT are likely stronger, out of state students)</p>

<p>This is the Stanford common data set [Stanford</a> University: Common Data Set 2008-2009](<a href=“http://ucomm.stanford.edu/cds/]Stanford”>Stanford Common Data Set | University Communications)</p>

<p>At Stanford the 25-75 ACT range: 30-34
77.1% scored a 30 or greater composite on the ACT
57.4% scored above a 700 SAT CR
66.3% scored above a 700 SAT Math</p>

<p>92% of enrolled students were in the top 10% of the class.
From Insiders Guide to the Colleges, 62% came from public schools.
The size of Stanford’s 2008 freshman class is 1723
1328 students in Stanford’s freshman class scored above at a level above 30 on the ACT.</p>

109

<p>Is the Stanford freshman class as a whole significantly stronger than the Michigan freshman class? Yes. </p>

<p>But if you took a class made up of the top 44% of Michigan students, they would be academically stronger than the Stanford student body, by a larger margin than the two institutions as a whole. This actually speaks more towards Alexandre’s point that classes made of the top 50+% of the Michigan student body would be academically indistinguishable from an HYPS student body. </p>

<p>Additionally, as many as 3 of such bodies could be made. Comparing to Stanford, one of the larger HYPS-Ivy schools, Michigan has almost twice as many students scoring at the 30+ ACT caliber than Stanford.</p>

<p>Because both schools are indistinguishably strong academic institutions, with more top programs and opportunities than one could ever need, the differences that do exist are partially normed out over the four years of school.</p>

110

<p>Harvard/Princeton > Yale > Columbia/Penn > Dartmouth/Michigan > Brown/Cornell</p>

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<p>I have no idea what you are talking about, cdz. I said those were the stats of accepted students, not enrolled students. Ring of fire referred to those statistics as “Incoming profiles” i.e. the statistics of matriculated students, which they were not.</p>

<p>Alexandre got his information from the common data set that Michigan provides (1230-1430 or whatever it was). He’s not trying to deceive anyone.</p>

<p>Sorry, but nothing I said was wrong at all.</p>

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<p>My bad I actually did read that one wrong. My apologizes.
Our initial debate was about the website, we didn’t go on common data for a while</p>

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<p>“I think you’re fudging the statistics Alexandre.”</p>

<p>Classy. </p>

<p>“So, we have an SAT difference of a 100 points and an aggregate ACT difference of about 2 points if you combine Duke’s two separate schools. IMO, this difference is staggering and is what separates a good school from a truly elite school. The difference is further exacerbated since at the higher end of the SAT scoring range, small differences in scores are more significant.”</p>

<p>First of all, the differences aren’t staggering, they are truly insignificant. And secondly, what determines a university’s quality is its faculty, not its students. Michigan’s faculty is actually slightly better than Duke’s. </p>

<p>“I don’t have time to do the research for Penn and Columbia but I assume the results will be the same. Only the top 25% of the Michigan student body can truly compete with the average Penn, Duke or Columbia student.”</p>

<p>That is what I said. The "average: Penn, Duke and Columbia student is at the 50th percentile…better than 50% of their fellow students. I stated that the top 25% at Michigan is equal to the top 50% at Brown, Cornell and Penn (I did not mention Duke mind you). The stats are clear: </p>

<p>The top 25% of the students at Michigan score over a 1430 on the SAT and over a 31 on the ACT. 50% of students at Brown, Cornell and Penn score BELOW that.</p>

<p>The 50th percentile students at Michigan score 1330 on the SAT and 29 on the ACT. 25% of the students at Brown, Cornell and Penn score BELOW that. </p>

<p>In short, the top 25% of the students at Michigan are as strong as the top 50% of the students at Brown, Cornell and Penn and the top 50% of the students at Michigan are better than the bottom 25% of the students at Brown, Cornell and Penn. </p>

<p>Below are the common data sets that prove my claims.</p>

<p><a href=“Office of Institutional Research | Brown University”>Office of Institutional Research | Brown University;

<p><a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000420.pdf#pagemode=bookmarks[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000420.pdf#pagemode=bookmarks&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;

<p>Penn does not publish a common data set, but according to their website, the 50th percentile of ADMITTED students is 1435 on the SAT and 32.5 on the ACT. </p>

<p>The facts are all there and pretty clear. I did not “fudge” anything and as I said,:</p>

<p>1) The difference in the quality of the student bodies at all those universities is comprable</p>

<p>2) Student bodies do not determine elite status, faculty and reputation do…and Michigan excels in those domains.</p>

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<p>

Here is where I, and the vast majority of Americans, would disagree with you. A strong faculty is not the primary measure of the quality of an university. It is the academic strength of the peers that surround you. Think of a university as a community or family-like setting. You spend 95% of your time with your peers and only 5% of your time with faculty members(during class and office hours). Who do you think has a bigger bearing on your personal, emotional and intellectual growth?</p>

<p>For instance, its the academic vitality and talents of its students that make Harvard the best university in the world. It is where the brightest minds and most talented individuals from all over the world gather. Sure it has an incredible faculty, but when most people think Harvard, they thing "BEST STUDENTS IN THE WORLD’ and not “BEST FACULTY IN THE WORLD”.</p>

<p>Would your rather go to Harvard if:</p>

<p>(A) its faculty was replaced with merely a “good” batch of professors but it still maintained a world-class student body</p>

<p>OR </p>

<p>(B) its faculty was top-notch but it had a state school student body</p>

<p>99% of Americans would choose option (A) if the had to compromise so you would be in the minority. I wonder if it’s because you are a foreigner that you overvalue the importance of faculty so much.</p>

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<p>ring<em>of</em>fire, schools such as Harvard are considered very prestigious because the faculty ARE famous (just look at the number of times some professor is cited in journals and newspapers). Harvard is a RESEARCH institution. The Sociology and Government departments are excellent examples. Your choice of Harvard is also flawed considering that there are more graduate students (who work as apprentices under well-known faculty) than undergraduate students. The prestige of an institution correlates to its department ranking(s) and number of resources. Why do you think schools such as Harvard and Michigan have some of the largest library collections in the world??</p>

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<p>"who in here actually worked professionally and understand that SAT scores and high school gpa or high school in general is BS?</p>

<p>I raise my hand. "</p>

<p>um… no. I know of 50 year old professors getting repeatedly asked for his SAT scores because he left it blank before an interview at DE Shaw. Citadel is the same deal. So is Jane Street and SIG, becaues they know SAT has a high, significant correlation with IQ (remember, causation and correlation are different.)</p>

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<p>In response to Coolbreeze’s comments on Michigan’s top 25% not being on par with UPenn students (not too sure if this is what you meant): It seems that even though you like UMich more, you seem to overrate UPenn. Perhaps that’s because of your experience or whatever, I don’t know. But generally, and based on my experience (my school sends well over 100/200 students to Ivys/Ivy-equivalents every year. Around 50 or so are ENROLLING in Cornell alone come September), UPenn and Cornell are usually considered the lower Ivies. Dartmouth next, and then Brown/Columbia, and so on (HYP). From reading this thread and my general perception of the two schools, the top 25% of UMich is definitely comparable, if not better than a great deal of UPenn students.</p>

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<p>polarize are you the guy who went to choate?</p>

119

<p>Nope, sorry.</p>

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<p>bearcats. What 50 year old is going to remember his SAT scores from 32-33 years earlier? IMO SAT scores have a higher correlation with wealth than intelligence. I mean poor students aren’t taking SAT prep classes and submitting their highest scores from each section as they test over and over again.</p>