<p>I’d think that for 50-year-olds, their professional achievements are much better indicators of their IQ/EQ/AQ’s. It’s silly to ask for their SAT scores. Back then no one really took SAT seriously; 1200 was considered a very good score.</p>
<p>And we had this box no larger than 2.5 x 5 to write our personal essay…</p>
<p>To post 117</p>
<p>Yeah, I’m sometimes in shock when I see ( mainly on this thread) many comparing Ivys and say UM-Ann Arbor is par with University of Pennslyvania ( speaking of top 25%, which I disagree). I see Penn as par with the top 3 universities, and could likely rank well within.</p>
<p>coolbreeze. Please don’t be in, “shock.” Penn isn’t on par with HYPS or MIT either. I think you’re not interpreting presented data properly.</p>
<p>While I respect your opinion, Coolbreeze, I think most people if not all, would disagree that UPenn is among the top 3 universities. It’s definitely comparable, but not exactly on par with schools like HYPS. In truth, I would say UMich is also comparable/on par with UPenn. When comparing UPenn’s students as a whole and UMich’s students as a whole, UPenn’s would most likely be better students (I’m saying “as a whole” because I don’t want to get into all those other factors such as bigger student body at UMich, partitioning the student body into top 25% or top 50%, etc). Penn is certainly one of the greatest schools, with its unique programs and all, but it’s really a stretch to consider it top 3 in the nation. Either way, I just wanted to let you know what most people think.</p>
<p>“Here is where I, and the vast majority of Americans, would disagree with you.”</p>
<p>Speak for yourself ring<em>of</em>fire. I have lived in the US for 10 years. I currently (and have been for the last two years) work for an American employer in Dubai. I worked for American employers in London for three years. Those employers happen to have been among the top 5 or 6 employers in their respective fields (IBanking and Consulting) in the world. That’s 15 years of living, studying and working with Americans. I know what Americans think. </p>
<p>"A strong faculty is not the primary measure of the quality of an university. It is the academic strength of the peers that surround you. Think of a university as a community or family-like setting. "</p>
<p>I strongly disagree with you ring<em>of</em>fire, and given my age, experience and 6 years of higher education, I am obviously more qualified than you to make the call. Let us face it, I have been activelly engaed in studying universities since 1990 (probably the year you were born). </p>
<p>“You spend 95% of your time with your peers and only 5% of your time with faculty members(during class and office hours). Who do you think has a bigger bearing on your personal, emotional and intellectual growth?”</p>
<p>First of all ring<em>of</em>fire, I spent more like 15% of my conscious time in college with faculty, not 5%. I also spent 25% of my conscious time studying on my own. I generally took 5 classes a trimester and each class met for 3-4 hours a week and each of those classes required a full 5-8 hours of studying per week. So no, I did not spend 95% of my time with other students. I probably spent 35% of my conscious time with other students, most of which was social, not academic in nature. The reason I say conscious time is because I also slept 6 hours daily. I have never been drunk, so I guess for the remaining time, I was indeed conscious! So to answer your question ring<em>of</em>fire, I don’t think either faculty or students had much of a bearing on my growth. I attribute most of my development to my own intiatives. I guess I depend on myself for learning. So although I learned a lot from both faculty and fellow students, I learned most from myself in college. </p>
<p>And ring<em>of</em>fire, just because I spent twice more time with students than with faculty (not twenty time as you seem to do) does not mean I learned twice as much from students than from faculty. Growing up, I spent more time with my sisters than I did with my mother and I spend even less time with my father. However, there is no doubt that I learned more from my father than I did from my siblings or mother. I love my siblings and admire them greatly, but in my case, no influence has been greater on me that the one member of my family that spent the least time with me. </p>
<p>"For instance, its the academic vitality and talents of its students that make Harvard the best university in the world. It is where the brightest minds and most talented individuals from all over the world gather. Sure it has an incredible faculty, but when most people think Harvard, they thing "BEST STUDENTS IN THE WORLD’ and not “BEST FACULTY IN THE WORLD”.</p>
<p>Not really ring<em>of</em>fire. Harvard students are no better than students at Caltech, Harvey Mudd, MIT, Princeton and Yale. Internationally, schools like Cambridge, Ecole Polytechnique, IIT and Oxford have students that are as strong as Harvard students. The reason why Harvard is the best university in the World is because it has the best faculty and the most resources. </p>
<p>"Would your rather go to Harvard if:</p>
<p>(A) its faculty was replaced with merely a “good” batch of professors but it still maintained a world-class student body</p>
<p>OR </p>
<p>(B) its faculty was top-notch but it had a state school student body"</p>
<p>I would not like to go to Harvard because I do not like the atmosphere. I much prefer MIT, Princeton or Stanford. If I were given the choice between Harvard or Michigan, I would probably go for the latter. But most people chose Harvard because it is the best university in the World, not because it has one of the better student bodies in the world. Harvard is Harvard thanks to its overall reputation, and its overall reputation is due to its incredible contributions to the academic world, to its vast resources and to its age.</p>
<p>“99% of Americans would choose option (A) if the had to compromise so you would be in the minority. I wonder if it’s because you are a foreigner that you overvalue the importance of faculty so much.”</p>
<p>Just like students spend 95% of their time interacting with other students in college eh? Not that I care what 99% of Americans think. I only care about the highly educated and knowledgeable think. I care about what graduate school admissions committees think. I care about what leading intellectuals around the US and the World think. I care about what desirable, ethical and exclusive employers think. And all of those people whose opinions matter to me make up far less than 99% of the US population. In fact they probably make up less than 1% of the US population. Quite frankly, 99% of the US population has absolutely no bearing on my life and I personally do not care what they think about college education. This said, a recent gallup poll of what the average American thought about universities placed Michigan among the top 10 US universities. Among college educated people, it placed Michigan even higher (fifth in the nation, tied with Cal and Princeton! </p>
<p><a href=“Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public”>http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard-number-one-university-eyes-public.aspx</a></p>
<p>Scroll to the bottom of the page to see the opinion of edcuated people. There is no doubt that highly educated people revere Michigan. </p>
<p>So I am not sure how you figure that 99% of Americans think only of quality of student bodies. Only a tiny fraction of Amercians even know how selective universities are, and those that do are probably the ones who would be least impressed by the concept of selectivity. In all cases, the American public truly respects Michigan as a top 10-15 university in the nation.</p>
<p>At any rate, whether student quality matters or not, it does not change the fact that 50% of the students at Michigan are statistically as strong as students at Brown, Cornell and Penn and that 25% of students at Brown, Cornell and Penn are actually weaker, statistically speaking, than the top 50% of the students at Michigan.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Bingo! I illustrated this point in post #[url="<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062719515-post115.html"]115[/url">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062719515-post115.html"]115[/url</a>]. Too bad it got lost in the sea of posts.</p>
<p>I saw your post tenisghs, I just wanted to add my $0.02.</p>
<p>Alexandre, your post was awesome. I hope ring<em>of</em>fire and others learned a lot from it. :)</p>
<p>None of the information I posted is new to ring<em>of</em>fire, tenisghs. He has been exposed to all the information in post #125 several times before, he just choses not to believe.</p>
<p>^^^^Highly doubtful tenisghs.</p>
<p>
tenisghs & novi:
You guys are in the 1% minority (I presume you guys are not foreigner like Alex). How do you argue with someone who knows how 99% of America think … perhaps Alex should hire ring to run his marcom department.</p>
<p>Let me tell you about my background a little bit Alexandre. I actually just graduated from college and will be working full-time at a major consulting firm(think B/B/M). I also interned at a bulge bracket IB firm in the summer of my junior year. Furthermore, I have lived or traveled to 15 countries around the world including in Europe, Asia, Australia and North America. I RECENTLY went through the college admissions process(only 4 years back) and I have lived in Detroit, MI for the past 10 years. In addition, I have several relatives and countless of friends who have graduated from UMich and I have been a diehard Michigan Football fan for as long as you have.</p>
<p>Even given all that, I don’t pretend to be objective or omniscient like you do regarding the matter of colleges or universities. The truth is everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and in a matter like this, there is no hard and fast “reality”.</p>
<p>Now to address your points:</p>
<p>
I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here exactly. It sounds like college was a complete was of time for you because you might as well have been homeschooled. My educational experience vastly differed from yours. I had a wonderful Microeconomics professor for instance that made me fall in love with the subject of Economics and whose guidance encouraged me to study the subject in greater detail. I have spent countless nights working with my fellow students on problem sets, projects and presentations in various liberal arts classes; these group learning sessions have stretched my intellectual boundaries and made me appreciate the insight that others have to offer.</p>
<p>Other than the fact that it got you a nice investment banking job out of college, it appears that your investment in a Michigan degree was largely for naught Alexandre if you “learned everything by yourself”. Ultimately, a university serves many other purposes besides providing students with a good academic reputation and strong job placement. It is a learning community where one matures from a teenager to a young adult.</p>
<p>
i disagree to an extent, but I was just using Harvard as an example. HYP in general have students that are in a whole another league than the next group of private and public schools. They are filled with international math, science. musical and art competition winners. In addition, they have students who are international activists, future politicians, famous debaters, etc. The true aptitude of these students can’t be measured by narrow statistics like GPA and LSAT alone.</p>
<p>Whether Harvard has the best faculty or not is much more arguable than the student body question. Harvard has, WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT IN MY MIND, the strongest student body in the world. Even if only by a little bit…</p>
<p>The top universities derive their reputation as PLACES OF LEARNING from their STUDENT BODY. It isn’t fair to use the accolades of some top researchers to boost the reputation of the university they work at in the eyes of graduate adcoms. What they do in the laboratory is irrelevant to the undergraduate student experience.</p>
<p>
Just because people are highly educated, that does not mean they know much about colleges and universities. It truly is a hobby and if I hadn’t wandered on to CC or met so many ambitious individuals in my lifetime, I wouldn’t be able to separate Dartmouth from Penn.</p>
<p>USNWR disagrees with you anyway. Those are the people WHOSE JOB it is to measure the reputations of American universities at the undergraduate and graduate level. It is a specialization after all and just because a Nobel Laureate is renowned in the field of Economics, that doesn not mean that he/she is adequately qualified to judge the reputation of colleges and universities.</p>
<p>Your post reeks of arrogance and entitlement. The 99% of Americans you belittle keep this economy afloat and their opinion matter just as much as the social elite. Many of the graduate school adcoms and employers you refer to fall into this huge percentage anyway.</p>
<p>Also, most Michigan grads will be entering fields where they will be interacting with regular Americans and regular Americans will make hiring decisions. They will not hold UMich in the same high regard.</p>
<p>I put ring<em>of</em>fire on ignore a long time ago. I find it enhances my enjoyment when reading CC.</p>
<p>“bearcats. What 50 year old is going to remember his SAT scores from 32-33 years earlier?”</p>
<p>dont ask me. Apparently Dr. Shaw, the most prolific quant in the world, thinks it’s important</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ring<em>of</em>fire, Coolbreeze, et al, how come Columbia, Penn, and the rest of the Ivy League are not listed above? How could Berkeley and Michigan be perceived as more prestigious by postgraduates?? Only three Ivys (HYP) are listed above. </p>
<p>This is from the same link Alexandre provided above on national perception of national universities.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Seeing as it seems you’ve never been to any of those schools while I have and have been interacting with kids who will attend, do attend, have attended, and have not attended monthly for the past 6 months, I’ll just tell you you’re wrong. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, it’s there job to sell magazines.</p>
<p>novi,
you are missing a lot of fun…</p>
<p>
I’ve had many more experiences with HYP students and alumni than you have without a doubt. I just graduated college and you are what, an entering freshman? I actually have relevant experience in the corporate and academic world and I can tell you that HYP students are many notches above Michigan students. Many of them have international level achievements and a curiosity for learning that would leave most Michigan students in the dust.</p>
<p>
This is graduate school prestige, but I am talking about undergraduate prestige. I fully accept that Michigan is a top 5 graduate institution. However, with regards to undergraduates, it is a fringe top 25 school at best.</p>
<p>^^^^I guess I missed out on a lot of fun again. Oh well.</p>
<p>To post 125</p>
<p>The link you gave to gallup:
<a href=“Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public”>http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard-number-one-university-eyes-public.aspx</a></p>
<p>Is a article from August 2003, do you have the 2009 one… that I thought you were speaking of?</p>