Is Villanova University worth it?

Parents Forum
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<p><a href=“http://www.sju.edu/int/studentlife/studentresources/careers/pdfs/gradreports/2012%20Career%20Destinations%20Report.pdf”>http://www.sju.edu/int/studentlife/studentresources/careers/pdfs/gradreports/2012%20Career%20Destinations%20Report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here’s a look at St Joes outcomes for class of 2012. I think she can get excited about St. Joes if she gets on their website and starts looking into all the opportunities she might have.</p>

<p>Often times being one of the better students at a university opens up opportunities other students don’t have. She should really look into what options there are. </p>

<p>Do not think that she will be their best student by any means. Lots of kids come into their own in college and work their butts off when they were not doing as much in high school. She will find her friends and classmates that are in her wheelhouse. </p>

<p>My 1560/1600 kid got into Cornell full pay. Really wanted to go, too. It was just too much money. He is 25 now, has a great job and was extremely happy in college…his safety. He has always been debt free and has his money to do with as he pleases.</p>

<p><a href=“http://alumni.sju.edu/s/1378/index.aspx?sid=1378&gid=1&pgid=459”>http://alumni.sju.edu/s/1378/index.aspx?sid=1378&gid=1&pgid=459&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here’s a list,of notable alumni.</p>

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<p>", and to get her into the school that truly fits without a shadow of a doubt, might be money well spent."</p>

<p>First of all, how do you know that Nova “truly fits without a shadow of a doubt”??? Because an 18 year old says so? </p>

<p>You seem to be drinking the kool-aid that she’s handing out. There is nothing so unique at Nova that can’t be found at 20+ other schools. </p>

<p>I, too, like the car comparison. We may find a $60k car that “truly fits without a shadow of a doubt”, but if it requires painful debt or painful cut-backs in order to afford, much of the “joy” of driving it will soon dissipate. </p>

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<p>That’s great, sax. Focusing on outcomes is exactly how we were able to make rational decisions about college with our first child and will do so again with the second. Also, as you say about your high-achieving child who didn’t go to his dream school, the input of a smart, motivated kid is a good predictor of success wherever he goes. </p>

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<p>“as you say about your high-achieving child who didn’t go to his dream school, the input of a smart, motivated kid is a good predictor of success wherever he goes.”</p>

<p>Do you have any data to support this claim? </p>

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<p>Why, yes–the Krueger/Dale research (you can find the actual paper or numerous sources like these that put the research in context).</p>

<p><a href=“Who Needs Harvard?”>http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2004/10/education-easterbrook&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Revisiting the Value of Elite Colleges - The New York Times”>http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The important thing about their research is that they controlled for X by studying people who had been admitted to prestigious schools but had chosen to go elsewhere.</p>

<p>Also note that there IS a boost for low-income, minority, and first-gen students who attend more selective schools.</p>

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<p>I understood your claim to be that a student is more likely to succeed at his “dream” school. I don’t see how this research supports that claim.</p>

<p>If I misunderstood the claim, I’m sorry.</p>

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<p>OP- hugs. Once you’ve all taken V off the table, the aura of sadness around the house will dissipate. It’s just too far from Point A (your resources) to Point B (what it will take financially.) Not a value judgement- just unaffordable. Your D will start to get excited about another choice once there’s no longer chatter about how perfect V is for her. She’s not going there- time to fall in love somewhere else.</p>

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<p>EMM, no need to apologize! I could have written that better.</p>

<p>By the way, I am a big believer in “fit.” I just don’t think ANY 18-year-old can have only one path to success that is dependent on his or her “dream” working out re college. As mom2collegekids says, there are dozens of schools at which the OP’s niece could thrive. It seems so many parents nowadays have to deal with a massive sense of entitlement among their kids (of course, they are partly to blame for their kids being this way). Adaptability is a good “life skill” more kids should develop, in my opinion. </p>

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<p>Here’s SJU list of AP credit</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.sju.edu/int/academics/centers/casadvising/curriculum/apchart.html”>http://www.sju.edu/int/academics/centers/casadvising/curriculum/apchart.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Your d may be able to gather so much credit that she can begin her masters program within her 4 years.</p>

<p>Again lots of options . </p>

<p>My kid started college with 52 AP credits…only used some and was able to get a bachelors of science in engineering and a bachelors of science in physics. Other kids went on and did many grad courses. No one wanted to graduate early…they were having too much fun.</p>

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<p>And look …SJU has graduate in education degrees too…
<a href=“http://www.sju.edu/int/academics/cas/grad/education/”>http://www.sju.edu/int/academics/cas/grad/education/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>And study abroad options…lots of them. Maybe you can afford this at this college when you might not have at Villanova.</p>

<p><a href=“Search | Saint Joseph's University”>Search | Saint Joseph's University;

<p>I could do this all day… </p>

<p>Get your D on the websites and have her explore them. She just might fall in love again.</p>

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<p>The OP’s daughter is not a spoiled diva who’s irate that the Porsche she got at her sweet-sixteen party is the wrong shade of pink; she’s apparently a wonderful young lady who’s crushed because she worked hard and did everything right, and her reward is the bargain bin. And Hanna thinks the OP is the kind of papa who would rather see her crying than give up his golf trips to Boca or the ski chalet in Vermont. To me, he certainly doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who could enjoy a day of golf or skiing knowing it was paid for with his daughter’s tears.</p>

<p>And to Sally and M2C and all your “what if’s”…there’s always a risk with everything…but you might add “what if she falls in love with and marries a bottom-quartile mouth-breather she meets at one of the lesser schools?” That’s very possible too. </p>

<p>Twoinanddone, the OP’s retirement and debt seem to be well under control, so while it was nice of you to share the details of your job and your own 1040 form, that doesn’t seem relevant to this case. </p>

<p>So very odd that everybody here wants to ride first class in all aspects of life, except education. Her college will be on every resume she ever writes. It’s where her mind will mature and probably where she’ll choose a career. It is the place she might meet her best lifelong friends. There’s a decent chance it’s where she will meet her husband and the father of her children. It’s the school her kids will have a good shot at because they will be legacies. It will be in her obituary. I’d say that’s more important than whether the OP gets to drink Heineken instead of Budweiser.</p>

<p>Y’all can save your breath about U of Dayton…apparently you’ve never lived in the Northeast. When the OP says bambina is Italian and therefore isn’t going to college far away, he ain’t kidding, he ain’t talking metaphorically, and the issue ain’t up for debate.</p>

<p>M2C, what I meant is if the OP is giving one arm of the Catholic Church in excess of $100k for tuition, I don’t think he needs to feel guilty about scaling back what he gives to another arm of the Catholic Church. Come on, you knew that.</p>

<p>All the talk about debt…I’ve mapped out a way to greatly reduce and maybe even eliminate the debt: limiting her time at VU to 3 years. Is that possible? Yes. Even in the outrageously unlikely event that she can’t figure out how to patch together a year’s worth of credit (or even more) from AP exams (for NJSue, here it is: <a href=“http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/artsci/undergrad/ous/advising/firstyear1.html”>http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/artsci/undergrad/ous/advising/firstyear1.html&lt;/a&gt; ) and summer classes at local public college, she could get pretty much the same result from spending freshman year at a community college. That could reduce the expected debt by MORE than 50%, as explained in one of my previous posts. What happens to the remainder of the debt is up to the OP and his family. If they aren’t willing to make a few sacrifices, then yeah, the debt would be excessive. If they’re open to some temporary austerity measures, and the daughter gets a part-time job, I think they could easily reduce the remaining debt to an acceptable level. </p>

<p>Look at all the bending over backwards going on trying to get Villanova off the table: the engineering school doesn’t grant AP credit (she’s not in engineering); AP credit can’t fulfill core requirements (yeah, but it can still count towards a B.A.); maybe she won’t like VU (there are no guarantees in life); you shouldn’t empty your retirement account (nobody said EMPTY it); they won’t accept credit from another school if VU offers an online equivalent (then take one that they DON’T have an equivalent for); they won’t accept credit from just any college (then find out which colleges they WILL accept credit from); I work all day with clients with retirement/debt problems (the OP seems to be in great financial shape) ; etc. etc. etc. I wish you guys would spend as much time trying to solve this problem as you have inventing half-baked reasons it can’t be done. </p>

<p>Your creativity in trying to justify the bargain reminds me of clothes shopping. I bet every one of us has a pair of pants in the closet which we bought on sale and which we’ve never worn. You know, the ones that were too tight in the waist, but they were 50% off, so we invented reasons to buy them…”maybe I’ll lose 20 pounds”….”maybe I could wear them under a trench coat and nobody will see they don’t fit”…”maybe wearing pants with the waist unbuttoned will come into style.” And there they hang, unused. So much better to have paid full price for a pair that actually fits. Because that’s what we’re talking about here…it might be crazy to spend $200k on the right college, but it might be even crazier to spend $150k on the wrong college.</p>

<p>Where there’s a will, there’s a way.</p>

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<p>The #1 easiest thing to do remains for OP to call the admissions&financial aid office tomorrow and list his/her daughter’s stats, then see how they respond. (And hopefully post back with that response).
But in case that doesn’t work, OP has tons of good advice s/he can decide to follow… or not.</p>

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<p>Mooop- all due respect, it’s easy to tell someone else how to spend their money. And the “old timer’s” here know that I am a massive believer in belt tightening, doing whatever it takes, pushing kids to soar, etc. And when that means that the whole family goes on a massive spending diet to finance a kids education- we all chip in and try to be cheerful about it.</p>

<p>But we’re talking Villanova here. No disrespect to the institution- but it’s not Cal Tech. It’s not U Chicago. It’s not Oxford or Cambridge. It’s not one of the three handfuls of institutions around the world that provide the type of education and intensity that is hard to replicate elsewhere. It’s a lovely place filled with nice and hard-working students. But to tell a stranger that he should move heaven and earth to pay for V when he simply can’t afford it- and to make him feel guilty about it- this strikes me as hitting below the belt.</p>

<p>Name two things about V from an academic or intellectual perspective that the D couldn’t find elsewhere. Name two elements of the cultural and artistic environment that can’t be found at a cheaper institution. Heck- other than it being close to home, and the D “falling in love”, name ONE thing distinctive about the place.</p>

<p>My kid was full pay at MIT- and loved every minute of it-- and so did we. But even I (a big booster of the institution) would be happy to tell anyone whose kid gets in and they discover they can’t afford it, that there are marvelous institutions all over the country that can provide an ambitious and talented would-be scientist or engineer or mathematician a superb experience. And so much more so for a kid like the OP’s D who does not need the deep pockets of a research university (at least from what she’s expressed interest in), who does not need a nanotechnology lab or a neuroscience interdisciplinary program, or the desire/need to be mentored by people who can get her summer gigs at the Jet Propulsion Lab with just a phone call. And of the dozen or so kids we know from MIT who did those Jet Propulsion and NASA gigs- most of them would have gotten them coming out of U Michigan and UIUC and Georgia Tech and the other engineering powerhouse public U’s.</p>

<p>So a kid like this who doesn’t need the deep pockets of a research institution and the intensive capital investment into cutting edge technology? I don’t believe she can’t replicate the social/cultural “feel” of Villanova at another suburban college, Catholic or otherwise.</p>

<p>And OP- there are tens of thousands of “serious” Catholics at non-Catholic U’s all over the country, which I’m sure you realize.</p>

<p>Hugs. It will get better at your house…</p>

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<p>moooop- How did we possibly get by without you all this time on College Confidential? (sarcasm alert)</p>

<p>Villanova is clearly not an option for this family. It’s a fine school, but, frankly, I didn’t think it was worth it back when I was applying to colleges- and I grew up near the place! If the price was right, fine- but it isn’t. I can think of a lot of schools that could have been options- but applications weren’t made. Looks like St. Joes it is!</p>

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<p>Well, there’s also Arcadia. And OP’s daughter could apply to UScranton, UDayton, West Chester, and even Penn State (where there thousands of Catholics, a chapel, and I assume Catholic churches in State College) - OP’s daughter could probably get into Shreyer after a semester. Of course there’s also Albright, Muhlenberg, Dickinson, Juniata, Eastern, Messiah, Moravian, the list goes on and on for colleges within a half day’s drive. It doesn’t have to be Villanova <em>or</em> St Joe’s.
And I’m sorry Moooop, but “Italian American girls don’t want to leave their family”, well, that’s not true - they do, for college, for a job, for marriage. OP’s daughter may be afraid of leaving the nest and being Italian American does mean close family ties, but it doesn’t mean Italian American kids don’t go to sleep away college or have to be within an hour’s drive of their parents.</p>

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<p>M y o s, re-read my comment…I din’t say no itaians leave…it was op who said she wasn’t going far…all I said was if Italians decide that, its fo certain. Mom2, u have much advice but no solutions.</p>

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<p>Gee, what if she falls in love with a top-quartile mouth breather at Villanova? You do realize there are cretins everywhere, don’t you? Read about the “rape guide” at Dartmouth, for instance.</p>

<p>Mooop, I appreciate that you have a lot of strong opinions on all this but it’s hard to see how your position does anything other than fuel the “spoiled-brat” mentality (for this student or others stomping their feet about not getting their way even at great expense to others). As others have said–it’s Villanova, not Harvard. It’s still just one of many universities with a regional reputation (outside of its basketball team, and I honestly don’t know if it’s still any good). Having the Villanova name on her resume is not likely to confer advantages she would not also have at a number of the other suggested schools–especially if what she wants to be is a TEACHER.</p>

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<p>As mentioned above, if she does want to work in secondary ed, the Villanova reputation for a very socially and ethnically homogenous student body may even hurt her. But clearly she’s not interested in West Chester, which would be as good as Villanova for Secondary Ed, and OP mentioned his daughter isn’t certain she wants to be a teacher so attending a strong school with versatile prospects is a good idea. </p>

<p>@moop: I reacted to your using OP’s comment as a point. We don’t know whether OP’s comment emanated from him/her, from the daughter, was to be taken seriously (we forbade her to apply elsewhere/she’s very stubborn) or in jest, etc. In short, it’s not something that can be used in the decision. If serious: If it’s Op’s initial choice, would s/he reconsider if there was another Catholic school that provided good financial aid? If it’s the daughter’s choice, could she be convinced to look at schools within a half day’s drive, which really isn’t far, if that meant a school within her family’s means yet above her current choices? In short, you can’t really “use” it.
You had one good idea, which I seconded, ie., call the Admissions and FA office on MOnday to see if they could give her a merit scholarship based on her stats. The “graduating in 3 years” plan might be explored but it uses a lot of assumptinos about OP’s state of affairs, assets, etc. “When there’s a will, there’s a way”… just isn’t true, and you can’t be naive enough to actually believe that (or, if you’re an adult, you must be very privileged. If all that was needed was will, well, no one would be ill, no one would be unemployed, everyone would be well off and successful, and presidential primaries would be an awful lot more crowded :stuck_out_tongue: Just kidding, but you see my point.) At this moment in time, we don’t know how much OP can afford. At best, it seems OP can afford $35,000 and I’m not even sure that’s what OP stated, plus we don’t know how much of the 35,000 would come from loans (vs. from a bank account and belt tightening.)</p>

<p>However I don’t think we should respond to Moooop, we should respond to OP… who has disappeared. :)</p>

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<p>Methinks some here are sad they or their parents weren’t creative in making dreams come true.</p>