Ivy-caliber Safeties (and Matches): Condensed Advice

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I posted a shorter, less structured version of this in reply to a previous thread, but I think it bears repeating in an easy-to-reference form. This is a collection of advice that I would give on various "help" threads, depending on what "conditions" the OP satisfies. It would be great if other CC regulars could contribute similar advice, or otherwise disagree with my advice. It skews very heavily toward LACs because that's what I have researched in great detail. ;)</p>

<p>Definitions: safety != guarantee. That would make the point of the word "safety" irrelevant, because you could just as easily say "guarantee" without confusing people. Simultaneously, T20 != safety, though I've mentioned some below in related contexts (they are not safeties!). All specific school recommendations are intentionally listed in alphabetical order. </p>

<p>Condition: National Merit Semi-Finalist/likely Finalist
I feel a little awkward about the self-promotion, but I recommend at least perusing my own compilation of large NMF scholarships: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html&lt;/a>. Jump to the last page to see the latest update. Depending on your geographic limiters, many of these schools make excellent financial safeties. In particular, consider American, Drexel, Fordham, URochester. I've also heard that for NMFs with strong stats, USC is a likely.</p>

<p>Subcondition: OK with the South
Consider UAlabama, Birmingham-Southern C, UNebraska, Ohio State, UOklahoma, U of South Carolina, Texas A&M, UTulsa.</p>

<p>Subcondition: LAC, not overtly religious
Consider Alfred U, Birmingham-Southern, Bradley U, Denison U, UEvansville, Furman U, UMinnesota-Morris, New College of Florida, Wesleyan C (women only).</p>

<p>Condition: LAC need-based aid
Consider Macalester as a low match, plus Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, and Smith if you're female (Barnard and Wellesley are true-match selective). True academic safeties that do a decent job at meeting need: Agnes Scott (female only). Beloit, Earlham, Knox, Denison, Hiram. Bard doesn't meet full need, but academics are excellent and Instant Decision Days (plus EA) make it a great safety.</p>

<p>Condition: LAC merit aid
This depends on how much merit aid is needed. NOT SAFETIES but with decent merit: Bryn Mawr, Claremont McKenna (extremely selective), Davidson (extremely selective), Grinnell, Kenyon, Mt. Holyoke, Oberlin, URichmond, Scripps, Smith, Washington & Lee (extremely selective). Plus Swarthmore if you happen to live on the Delmarva Peninsula or in the three counties nearest the school. Merit match/safety might include Agnes Scott (female only), Beloit, Hiram, Knox, Wooster.</p>

<p>Condition: open to women's colleges
Women's colleges are such a great "admissions bargain" on selectivity : academics. Of the SEven Sisters, consider Barnard (ED only, RD is true-match selective), Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, Smith, Wellesley (rumor is that non-binding EE has a higher acceptance rate). Otherwise I am fond of Scripps (one of the Claremont Colleges, acceptance rate is plummeting) and Agnes Scott.</p>

<p>Condition: Asian open to LACs
This is where being Asian can actually be an advantage, even if you're the stereotypical math/science Asian with high stats. It helps if you're open to rural and/or Midwest/South locations (one of the two will suffice). I know for sure that the following schools have competitive fall diversity visit programs (expenses-paid) that accept non-first-gen, non-low-income Asian students: Carleton, Grinnell, Middlebury, Swarthmore. Other schools that sent me (a Chinese female) applications for such programs: Bryn Mawr, Colby, Colgate, Hamilton, Kenyon, Oberlin, Reed, and others that I can't recall spontaneously. </p>

<p>Of note, Middlebury's program was nearly half Asian (judging by appearance) and we were given verbal reassurance of admission--the program has a ~25% acceptance rate, and somewhere around 75-90% of "Discover Middkids" who apply are ultimately accepted. Midd is a T5 LAC, but its location makes it difficult to attract ALANA students. Davidson, in NC, is another elite LAC with surprisingly low Asian representation (only 4%), though I don't know of any specific recruitment efforts. To get in on these little-known opportunities, you need to sign up for each college's mailing lists before the summer of senior year. For complete reference on visit programs: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/770660-fall-diversity-visit-programs-compilation.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/770660-fall-diversity-visit-programs-compilation.html&lt;/a>. There are other top LACs--e.g. Williams, Amherst, Pomona--with similar diversity visit programs for URMs but I haven't heard of many unhooked Asians being accepted to them.</p>

<p>Condition: compatible early program with SCEA
Unverified, UNC's late notification may qualify for simultaneous Yale/Stanford early applications (the two have slightly different rules). Rolling is good, but apparently UMichigan is going to ED/RD next year so that leaves Penn State and UPittsburgh as among the best rolling admit schools.</p>

<p>Condition: universities, not LACs, silly!
Michigan (even without rolling) and Pitt are my personal favorites; UNC and UVA are too selective OOS to be safeties, and PSU honors is idiosyncratic. Also consider UMinnesota and UWisconsin flagships, particularly the former's low OOS tuition differential. The best non-binding EA schools include Boston College, UChicago, Georgetown, MIT, Caltech--these turn into safeties if you are admitted early. A notch below, with more likely EA admission, would be Fordham and Tulane.</p>

<p>And that's all I've got. What say you, CC?</p>

2

<p>You really make some great threads, Keilexandra. Most users on CC who post threads this informative aren’t high school students, so I’d say you’re wise beyond your years as a current high school senior. </p>

<p>Do you have any programming experience by any chance, seeing as you’re matching schools based on conditions met? :)</p>

3

<p>Interesting post, Keil. Obviously is generalized, but gives people lots of good leads. I would nitpik that UNebraska, Ohio State are hardly southern, and UOklahoma and UTulsa are usually not considered southern either.</p>

4

<p>I like the idea of framing the safety/match selections in terms of these “conditions”. Many of the individual schools are excellent choices, too.</p>

<p>Issues:

  1. I’m slightly troubled by the inclusion of schools like Swarthmore in any list labeled “safeties”, even with the “Ivy-caliber” qualifier, and even with the parenthetical “and Matches” after-thought. Too many high-achieving high school kids on College Confidential seem to think that every school after HYPSM is a “safety school” or at worst a “match”. So let’s be sure to label such schools consistently with the “NOT SAFETY” or some such dire warning flag.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I’m sure these were not meant to be comprehensive lists … but some under-represented categories here include Western LACs (Colorado College, Lewis & Clark, Mills, Occidental, Whitman College) and the handful of public LACs (SUNY Geneseo, St.Mary’s College of Maryland, New College FL). All of these could be match/low match, or safeties, for an “Ivy caliber” student. The public LACs also are financial bargains for full-pay people. Several of these schools give merit aid. One (Mills) is a women’s college. Asian students may be under-represented at some of them (though I’m not aware that any have fall diversity visit programs). </p></li>
<li><p>Notwithstanding issue #1, you might want to highlight Cooper Union and Olin as financial safeties (NOT admission safeties) especially for upper middle income families that may fall in the financial donut hole (too rich for aid, too poor not to worry).
The service academies comprise another special category of interest.</p></li>
<li><p>St. Andrew’s (Scotland) seems to be attracting attention lately as a good “likely” for Ivy-caliber students, because apparently it is a first-rate institution with an old world atmosphere that gives strong admission advantages to full-pay US applicants. I don’t know if there are other foreign (non-US, especially English-speaking) schools worth mentioning. You may for simplicity want to constrain this to US-only (or even liberal education only) schools.</p></li>
<li><p>The in-state public “honors college” concept may deserve highlighting.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Details, details …</p>

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<p>

</li>
</ol>

<p>Absolutely to both of these. St. Andrews is definitely fond of full-pay US applicants, and I have a cousin there who loves it. And honors colleges provide great opportunities, especially for top kids who’d prefer to continue to be a big fish in a small pond.</p>

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<p>schrizto, I’m interested in CS but not very good at it, FWIW.</p>

<p>fallenchemist - Point gladly conceded! This is what happens when you go through compilation lists by eye after midnight… (Though I do consider Oklahoma “southern” the same way Texas is southern.)</p>

<p>tk, I wrote the thread out and then realized that I was delving into merit aid schools that are definitely NOT safeties. Unfortunately the OP is no longer editable, or I’d make that clearer because Swarthmore is a reach for everyone–it is also unique in that the full-tuition merit scholarship isn’t much more of a reach than straight admission because of the stringent geographic limitations.</p>

<p>I didn’t try to be comprehensive, relying on CCers to fill in the gaps as you have. Public LACs deserve a dedicated paragraph… W&M is also one but it would not be a safety.</p>

<p>My knowledge of public honors colleges is rather lacking, so please, someone else elaborate!</p>

<p>Not turning this into a c/p compilation because that gets exhausting, but after a few pages I may go through and condense new info into the OP.</p>

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<p>My own knowledge of public honors colleges is lacking, too. I’d be very interested, in particular, in the admissions standards for OOS students and the availability of aid. The Common Data Sets generally are not a big help because they do not break out the “honors” data.</p>

<p>Below are some fertile categories, in my opinion, for Ivy-caliber students seeking good safety and match schools (for either admissions OR aid). We’ve already covered some of these.</p>

<ul>
<li>Jesuit Colleges (other than Georgetown)</li>
<li>Quaker Colleges (other than Swarthmore and Haverford)</li>
<li>LACs in general, other than the tippy top ones, and especially schools outside of New England (including the Associated Colleges of the Midwest)</li>
<li>So-called “public Ivies” (regardless of state) and public honors colleges (especially in-state)</li>
<li>Women’s Colleges</li>
<li>Free or reduced tuition schools (Cooper Union, Olin, the service academies, Deep Springs; though of course, some of these are among the most selective schools of all)</li>
<li>Selective Early Action colleges (especially if decisions are announced by January 1)</li>
<li>Consortium colleges (excluding the most selective of the member schools)</li>
<li>“Colleges That Change Lives”</li>
<li>U.K./International schools?</li>
</ul>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Swarthmore and Haverford were founded by Quakers, but they no longer have the affiliation.</p>

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<p>^ Understood.
I’m referring loosely to Quaker-founded LACs as a class. Of these, Swarthmore and Haverford are the most selective; they can be considered “match” schools for very few if any students.</p>

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<p>This is a great list! Thanks for making it.</p>

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<p>I don’t think Michigan is changing to ED/RD.</p>

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<p>To add detail to this category, here are in state and OOS tuition and fees for a set of schools, selected from the top 25 public universities listed in the USNWR “national university” rankings, that have OOS tuition and fees under $25K. Sorted by USNWR rank, these schools include:</p>

<ol>
<li>UNC $5,396 / $22,294</li>
<li>Wisconsin $8,020 / $22,270</li>
<li>Washington $7,692 / $24,367</li>
<li>Florida $4,373 / $23,744</li>
<li>Ohio State $8,706 / $22,278</li>
<li>Maryland $8,053 / $23,990</li>
<li>Pittsburg $14,154 / $23,852</li>
<li>Georgia $6,030 / $22,342</li>
<li>Clemson $10,688 / $24,998</li>
<li>Texas A&M $8,336 / $22,886</li>
<li>Minnesota $11,542 / $15,542</li>
</ol>

<p>In addition, two public liberal arts colleges have total OOS tuition and fees under $25K:</p>

<p>SUNY - Geneseo $6278 / $14,178
St. Mary’s College of Maryland $13234 / $24,627</p>

<p>Note, these costs represent tuition and fees only. For total cost of attendance (before aid), add approximately $10K-$15K.</p>

<p>I believe that all these schools, with the possible exception of UNC, would be admission safety or match schools for OOS, “Ivy caliber” students.</p>

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<p>This is from <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/872042-if-your-kid-aiming-ivies-other-elites-what-were-his-her-safeties.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/872042-if-your-kid-aiming-ivies-other-elites-what-were-his-her-safeties.html&lt;/a&gt;, which inspired my OP.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>So: hearsay, but something to keep an eye on for the Class of 2015.</p>

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<p>Condition: LAC merit aid</p>

<p>To add detail to this category (Keilexandra’s #3), here are average after-award costs of attendance for a set of private LACs that grant significant levels of merit (non need-based) aid. They are selected from the top 100 schools in the USNWR “liberal arts college” rankings. Each school in this list has average after-award costs under $40K for merit aid recipients; each awards merit aid to at least 10% of all students. The list is sorted by USNWR rank and shows the percentage of students receiving merit aid (last column).</p>

<p>RANK SCHOOL COST RECIPIENTS
8. Davidson $29,433 20%
14. Wash. & Lee $25,036 14%
14. Grinnell $35,203 61%
22.Oberlin $39,613 30%
24. Colorado $33,770 13%
25. Scripps $34,096 16%
33. Kenyon $38,861 41%
35. Lafayette $38,325 14%
36. Whitman $37,459 48%
40. Furman $31,724 44%
46. Centre $27,740 87%
49. St. Olaf $36,737 84%
53. Denison $32,060 86%
54. Rhodes $28,795 70%
62. Beloit $28,431 60%
80. Knox $29,725 79%</p>

<p>Source: [url=<a href=“http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/privatecolleges/]Kiplinger[/url”>Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts]Kiplinger[/url</a>]</p>

<p>Davidson, and possibly a few others at the top of the list, may be low reach schools for some “Ivy Caliber” students. The rest should be admission match or safety schools. The average after-grant cost of attendance (COA) at these schools would be comparable to (or even less than) the total full-sticker COA at many OOS public flagships. They may represent especially good value for upper middle income Ivy-caliber students (students whose families are a little too affluent to qualify for need-based aid). Notice that none of these schools are located in the Northeast, where most selective LACs limit aid to students with demonstrated need (low Expected Family Contributions.)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the fleshing-out, tk!</p>

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<p>Yah, divide and conquer!</p>

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<h2>Since this thread seems to be dying down, here’s a condensed version if anyone wants it as reference.</h2>

<p>Definitions: safety != guarantee. That would make the point of the word “safety” irrelevant, because you could just as easily say “guarantee” without confusing people. Simultaneously, T20 != safety, though I’ve mentioned some below in related contexts (they are not safeties!). All specific school recommendations are intentionally listed in alphabetical order. </p>

<p>Many thanks to all the corrections and contributions from OP to this point.</p>

<p>Condition: National Merit Semi-Finalist/likely Finalist
I feel a little awkward about the self-promotion, but I recommend at least perusing my own compilation of large NMF scholarships: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html&lt;/a&gt;. Jump to the last page to see the latest update. Depending on your geographic limiters, many of these schools make excellent financial safeties. In particular, consider American, Drexel, Fordham, URochester. I’ve also heard that for NMFs with strong stats, USC is a likely.</p>

<p>Subcondition: OK with the South
Consider UAlabama, Birmingham-Southern C, UOklahoma, U of South Carolina, Texas A&M, UTulsa.</p>

<p>Subcondition: LAC, not overtly religious
Consider Alfred U, Birmingham-Southern, Bradley U, Denison U, UEvansville, Furman U, UMinnesota-Morris, New College of Florida, Wesleyan C (women only).</p>

<p>Condition: LAC need-based aid
Consider Macalester and Whitman as low matches, plus Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, and Smith if you’re female (Barnard and Wellesley are true-match selective). True academic safeties that do a decent job at meeting need: Agnes Scott (female only). Beloit, Earlham, Knox, Denison, Hiram. Bard doesn’t meet full need, but academics are excellent and Instant Decision Days (plus EA) make it a great safety.</p>

<p>Condition: LAC merit aid
This depends on how much merit aid is needed. Consider Agnes Scott (female only), Beloit, Hendrix, Hiram, Knox, Lewis & Clark, Mills (female only), Rhodes, Wooster.</p>

<p>For more detail, see <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064308450-post14.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064308450-post14.html&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Subcondition: open to the South
Look up curmudgeon’s threads on merit aid, dated as they are.</p>

<p>Subcondition: public LACs
Depending on how much merit you need, these may be financial safeties: Evergreen State, New College of Florida, North Carolina-Asheville, St. Mary’s College of MD, Mary Washington (VA), Minnesota-Morris (automatic in-state tuition), SUNY Geneseo, TCNJ (College of New Jersey), Truman State (MO). Full COPLAC list at [COPLAC</a> | Council of Public Liberal Arts Colleges](<a href=“http://www.coplac.org/members.html]COPLAC”>http://www.coplac.org/members.html). Also look at the CTCL schools ([Colleges</a> That Change Lives](<a href=“http://ctcl.org/]Colleges”>http://ctcl.org/)), keeping in mind that Reed is both the most selective school on the list and the only one that eschews merit aid.</p>

<p>Subcondition: What about non-safety LACs with merit?
The following are NOT SAFETIES but offer decent merit and would make good “merit reaches,” to borrow terminology from curmudgeon: Bryn Mawr, Claremont McKenna (extremely selective), Colorado College, Davidson (extremely selective), Grinnell, Kenyon, Mt. Holyoke, Oberlin, Occidental, URichmond, Scripps, Smith, Washington & Lee (extremely selective), Whitman. Plus Swarthmore (extremely selective) if you happen to live on the Delmarva Peninsula or in the three PA counties nearest the school.</p>

<p>Condition: open to women’s colleges
Women’s colleges are such a great “admissions bargain” on selectivity : academics. Of the SEven Sisters, consider Barnard (ED only, RD is true-match selective), Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, Smith, Wellesley (rumor is that non-binding EE has a higher acceptance rate). Otherwise I am fond of Scripps (one of the Claremont Colleges, acceptance rate is plummeting), Agnes Scott, and Mills.</p>

<p>Condition: Asian open to LACs
This is where being Asian can actually be an advantage, even if you’re the stereotypical math/science Asian with high stats. It helps if you’re open to rural and/or Midwest/South locations (one of the two will suffice). I know for sure that the following schools have competitive fall diversity visit programs (expenses-paid) that accept non-first-gen, non-low-income Asian students: Carleton, Grinnell, Middlebury, Swarthmore. Other schools that sent me (a Chinese female) applications for such programs: Bryn Mawr, Colby, Colgate, Connecticut College, Hamilton, Kenyon, Oberlin, Reed, Smith, Whitman.</p>

<p>Of note, Middlebury’s program was nearly half Asian (judging by appearance) and we were given verbal reassurance of admission–the program has a ~25% acceptance rate, and somewhere around 75-90% of “Discover Middkids” who apply are ultimately accepted. Midd is a T5 LAC, but its location makes it difficult to attract ALANA students. Davidson, in NC, is another elite LAC with surprisingly low Asian representation (only 4%), though I don’t know of any specific recruitment efforts. To get in on these little-known opportunities, you need to sign up for each college’s mailing lists before the summer of senior year. For complete reference on visit programs: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/770660-fall-diversity-visit-programs-compilation.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/770660-fall-diversity-visit-programs-compilation.html&lt;/a&gt;. There are other top LACs–e.g. Williams, Amherst, Pomona–with similar diversity visit programs for URMs but I haven’t heard of many unhooked Asians being accepted to them.</p>

<p>Condition: compatible early program with SCEA
Unverified, UNC’s late notification may qualify for simultaneous Yale/Stanford early applications (the two have slightly different rules). Rolling is good, but apparently UMichigan is going to ED/RD next year so that leaves Penn State and UPittsburgh as among the best rolling admit schools.</p>

<p>Condition: universities, not LACs, silly!
Michigan (even without rolling) and Pitt are my personal favorites; UNC and UVA are too selective OOS to be safeties, and PSU honors is idiosyncratic. Also consider UMinnesota and UWisconsin flagships, particularly the former’s low OOS tuition differential. Also consider Fordham and Tulane with EA. The best non-binding EA schools include Boston College, UChicago, Georgetown, MIT, Caltech–these turn into safeties IF you are admitted early.</p>

<p>For more detail, see <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064307172-post12.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064307172-post12.html&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Subcondition: What about public honors colleges?
Good question. Honors at your own in-state flagship is usually a good bet, and often a financial safety; however, that particular school may not be a good personal fit. Hopefully someone with specialized knowledge on this can chime in.</p>

<p>Condition: the paradoxical reachy financial safety
As financial safeties but admission reaches, consider Cooper Union (full tuition scholarship) and Olin (half tuition scholarship). There are also a few music conservatories, such as Curtis, that I won’t delve into. Then there’s Deep Springs ([Deep</a> Springs College](<a href=“http://www.deepsprings.edu/]Deep”>http://www.deepsprings.edu/)), which is hands-down the most selective and prestigious two-year college in the nation (also, for better or worse, male only).</p>

<p>Subcondition: committing to military service
Many top colleges participate in ROTC, which will cover at least full tuition. There are also five service academies–all LACs, all free of charge–that train for various branches of the armed forces: USAFA (Air Force), Coast Guard, West Point (Army), Kings Point/USMMA (Marines), Annapolis (Navy). </p>

<p>Condition: willing to leave the USA
St. Andrew’s (Scotland) is a good choice for full-pay students, since it does not offer any foreign FA. NYU-Abu Dhabi has been extremely generous with merit aid for the 2010 inaugural year.</p>

<p>Subcondition: but staying in North America
Consider Canada, of course! Look at Dalhousie, McGill, Queens, UToronto, UBC (British Columbia), Waterloo. Canada does not have any true LACs, but there are still some smaller, highly regarded baccalaureate schools: Acadia, Mt. Allison, St. Francis Xavier. One unique choice is the University of King’s College, a very small school affiliated with Dalhousie that offers an interdisciplinary first-year program on Western civilization. The AUCC’s website is a great resource for statistical information on ALL the Canadian universities: [AUCC’s</a> Directory of Canadian Universities: the authoritative guide to universities in Canada](<a href=“http://www.aucc.ca/can_uni/index_e.html]AUCC’s”>http://www.aucc.ca/can_uni/index_e.html).</p>

<p>Condition: If you like… (miscellaneous)
If you like the Quaker ethos of colleges like Swarthmore and Haverford, consider actual Quaker colleges Earlham and Guilford (which still have low % of Quaker students). If you like Jesuit colleges like Georgetown and Boston College, consider Fordham and Villanova. If you’re Morman, BYU should already be on your list. If you’re conservative/evangelical, consider Wheaton College (IL) et al (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/christian-colleges/876276-2010-updated-christian-college-university-list.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/christian-colleges/876276-2010-updated-christian-college-university-list.html&lt;/a&gt; is a list ranked by SAT ranges).</p>

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<p>Thanks for the whole post! But just FYI for unhooked Asians, I applied to the Amherst Diversity Open House as an unhooked Asian from a pretty well off town (average income over 100k) but checked the box of “will apply for financial aid” and was accepted. My essay was really bizarre - about being a creeper - but there were a few Asians though, so it can definitely be done and it is well worth applying to (free trip out, admissions seminars and the like)!</p>

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<p>^Good to know! Getting into these diversity programs can be a shot in the dark… I got into Middlebury’s but not Smith’s, for instance. And Scripps flew me out (might have been holistically need-based) even though their program is explicitly targeted at URMs. But applying is free in every case I’ve seen, so it never hurts. </p>

<p>Also, for the record, I was “rejected” from Discover Swarthmore but admitted to the college EDII. The predictive correlation is much stronger in the positive direction. I happen to know, through happenstance, a lot of people who did attend DiscoSwat, and most/all of them were accepted either ED or early write.</p>

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Lafayette is in the Northeast (Easton, PA), about an hour’s drive from both NYC and Philly.</p>