<p>Who gets your vote for greatest Cal point guard?</p>
<p>Career stats:</p>
<p>Kevin Johnson
9.1 assists
2.93 assist/turnover ratio
1.47 steals
17.9 points
3x All-Star
4x All-NBA second team
One of the greatest in-game dunks in NBA history-<br> KJ</a> posterizes Hakeem </p>
<p>Man, you can't compare Kevin Johnson with J-Kidd. Kidd is rated one of the Top Ten Point Guards in the entire history of NBA. Kidd will soon be rated as one of the 50 Greatest Players, mark my words.</p>
<p>I'm not old enough to remember Kevin Johnson's playing days. But I'll say that Jason Kidd has made a name for himself as the NBA's consummate point guard: the player who always looks for the open teammate, even if it means passing up an opportunity to get some points. Jason Kidd is a better player than Johnson was and I think it's evident in the reputaton that he's built. Though, they both were good players that went to Cal and that's all that matters!</p>
<p>It'd be interesting to compare their accomplishments at Cal. It'd also be nice if you could elaborate on what you are seeking from your question. In terms of "point guard" proper, there are few better point guards in the history of the NBA than Jason Kidd, if you consider that PG is supposed to make teammates better, control possession, dish assists, control defense away from basket, and manage a game. In tossing Gary Payton into the ring, you've made this question slightly more complex. Gary Payton, by the numbers and through the attention he commands on the court, would make a strong case for being a better overall basketball player. He scores points, gets the job done with assists (high totals, almost comparable to Kidd, yet not as flashy), and has one of the highest steals totals in the history of the game; they don't call him "The Glove" for nothing. As for Kevin Johnson, he was a solid point guard throughout his career. Defenses didn't tailor their game plan around him, but that's probably because Johnson always had a strong supporting cast.</p>
<p>As for the QB question, yes, Steve Levy (the hero from Stanfurd and Las Vegas Bowl games) was arrested in a dispute in San Francisco. Coming into spring camp, he was our second-string quarterback and since has fallen to third-string (Longshore, our starter last season before injuring his leg in the first half of the first game, is odds-on favorite to win position, followed by Joseph Ayoob who has made a strong showing in camp and his mobility is a bonus with our new TedSpread offense). Levy will miss the first game of the season, as Tedford has suspended him for one game. This, however, is fairly significant, because we will be playing at Tennessee (the winningest football program since 1928, they have the third largest stadium in the nation at 108,000 (Memorial Stadium holds 66,000 for game days)), and the environment will be electric and we could sure use an experienced quarterback in such a hostile environment. I can't believe football season is almost here! Whew!</p>
<p>"Gary Payton, by the numbers and through the attention he commands on the court, would make a strong case for being a better overall basketball player"</p>
<p>I have to disagree. Payton does not command more attention on the floor than Kidd. Because of Kidd's triple-double threat and his ability to take over a game from so many ways, Kidd is a better player than Payton. In addition, Payton is a very good defender but I would say Kidd is an even better one. Payton may have stolen the ball a lot, but getting a lot of steals doesn't mean he is a good defender. Kidd is a supreme in-your-face defender who frustrates the opposing team's best player. Overall, Kidd is a better PG and player.</p>
<p>A stout defender can make even the best player on the other team struggle. A good defender, like Payton, Bruce Bowen, or Ron Artest, can change the other team's offensive strategies. Steals are just one indicator, you are right. But I must also rest on the opinion of experts of the game: Payton is the second player in NBA history to make it to NBA All-Defensive FIRST team nine times. Kidd, an excellent defender in his own right, has been on the FIRST team four times and second team an additional four times (I don't know Payton's second team information). You can make a strong case for both, but if we look back into history, you won't remember Kidd for his defense. A part of the reason is, yes, Kidd is a triple-double machine. However, getting triple doubles doesn't draw the attention of the opposition. If Kidd scores only 10 points, gets his automatic 10 assists, and 10 rebounds, well, that's not as significant (from the opposition's perspective) as Payton going off for, say, 30 points and 10 assists. The opposing team is not going to block out extra hard for a rebound to prevent Kidd from getting a triple double.</p>
<p>True, Payton made All-Defensive First Team 9 times, but while he's pretty much near the end of his career, Kidd is still in his prime, so he could make more Defensive Teams as he progresses in his career. Perhaps overall basketball skills can best be summarized by looking at their All-NBA First Team selections. Kidd has made the First Team 5 times while Payton has made only two. Also, in terms of pure Point Guard skills, Kidd is THE epitome of what a point guard is. His playmaking skills truly make his teammates better, something only few point guards, such as Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton in the 60's, 80's, and 90's, and Steve Nash today, can do. Payton, on the other hand, was the "score-first" type of point guard, something we see a lot in the modern times.
What makes Kidd so dangerous is that in addition to his playmaking abilities, his triple-double threat allows him to take over a game. A player who can post a trible-double, in my opinion, is the most dangerous person on the field, as this indicates his excellent overall individual performance.While a great scorer and a solid playmaker, Payton was never that multi-dimensional and was only one of many scoring point guards in the history of NBA.</p>
<p>you lost credibility by claiming Kidd is still in his prime and excluding Isiah Thomas from that list of great point guards. j/k You guys know your NBA! :bow:</p>
<p>Did you ever see the Kemp-Payton duo in the 90's? I would say Payton is far from a scoring pg which should be reserved for the likes of Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis. It's ironic and scary because they now play for the same team which can only guarantee a last place finish for the NYK.</p>
<p>No, we still remember Payton as a scoring point guard first. He may not be as extreme as Iverson, Arenas, or Marbury, but he still averaged 23 points, 24 points a season in the mid-90's, which no pure playmaking point guards do nowadays.
Also, Kidd averaged 13.3 points, 7.3 rebounds, and 8.4 assists (5th in the league) in 2005-06 season. You may say he is past his prime, but his skills have not diminished at all, especially on the defensive end, as he made the Defensive First Team yet again.</p>
<p>As for not including Isiah Thomas, I did not think mentioning him was necessary. If I had to put down the best point guards ever in addition to the ones I mentioned, I would have had to include KC Jones, Earl Monroe, Tiny Archibald, Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Thomas, etc, etc.</p>
<p>Indeed I agree that Payton was more of a score-first point guard with passing skills. Players like Steve Francis I consider to be SGs played as a PGs out of necessity, rather than score-first point guards.</p>
<p>Jason Kidd surprisingly after his surgery is still playing very well. He wasn't mentioned often this year since the Nets didn't get particularly far in the playoffs, but he still is playing solidly. He may be past his prime in the sense that ages 28-29-30 are considered traditionally be to a player's prime, but his level of play hasn't dropped off significantly, if at all.</p>