I am having angst about S18 future job prospects. He’s a freshman undecided major at Richmond, having gone in thinking he would eventually go to law school. He’s a great mock trialer, loves to talk, and is a great persuader. He doesn’t love to write however, so now he’s not sure about law. Anyway, he has a transfer option to Cornell ILR for next year, and while we thought he’d stay at Richmond where he received merit aid, now I’m concerned he won’t find as good of a job from Richmond as from Cornell, since a BS may be his terminal degree. He needs to pick classes for next semester in a couple weeks and would need to take the Cornell prerequisites. Any input?
Both schools have some career survey results, but not very detailed or informative (specifically, they do not break down results by major, which tends to be very significant in types of jobs and pay levels at BA/BS graduation, although Cornell has some results by division).
https://careerservices.richmond.edu/post-graduation-data/index.html
http://www.career.cornell.edu/resources/surveys/postgraduate.cfm
Cornell:
Salary Statistics for Bachelor’s Degree Recipients
2016 2017
Mean Salary $63,071 $65,187
Median Salary $62,400 $65,000
Richmond:
Average salary range one year after graduation: $45,000 - $49,999
The question is can you afford Cornell? If you can, you son could get a great education at Cornell even if he doesn’t go into law.
Looks like the Cornell ILR mean pay for 2016 graduates was $59,633, which may be more relevant for the OP’s student who may transfer to Cornell ILR (which has one major, but with a broad range of subarea specializations).
The only Cornell division with higher mean pay than the overall is the engineering division.
http://www.career.cornell.edu/resources/surveys/upload/2016_PostGrad-Report_New.pdf
If he is happy and settled at Richmond, why would you give that up for a risk involved in starting all over with new friends? I don’t think there is a meaningful difference in job prospects. Many students leave pre-law when they learn that mock trial has very little to do with what 95% of lawyers actually do.
I would highly recommend he transfers to Cornell. ILR is an incredible major, very versatile and highly sought after by employers. You might want to do some more research before making up your mind. Best of luck.
If your son stays at Richmond what would his BS degree be in?
If you understand the breadth and depth of Cornell’s ILR School, you’d feel differently about your son’s choices. It’s a great school that could lead to lots of different career paths and it has a strong alumni. I’d seriously have your son take a look at the program (I’m sure he has, but maybe delve deeper) and all it has to offer versus staying at Richmond and getting a bachelor’s there.
https://youtu.be/QA-ILgQzd1E
That’s a misleading way of listing things. At the two colleges, you are comparing different portions of high paying fields, working in different locations, and in different years. For example, in 2016 Cornell reports the highest paying grads are concentrated in the 3 popular fields listed below. The survey indicates the high paying grads are also concentrated in two locations – NYC area and the west (presumably Silicon Valley), which both likely have a large portion in these 3 fields:
53% work in finance, consulting, or engineering/CS – Average salary is $74k
47% work in other fields – Average salary is $50k
Unfortunately Richmond’s survey doesn’t break down in to this level of detail, and it’s from 2015. Richmond doesn’t appear to have an engineering program and only 2% go in to CS, so that high paying group is much smaller than Cornell. Richmond does appear to have a good portion that go into finance and consulting, but less than Cornell. In 2016, ~28% of Richmond grads went in to finance, consulting, and tech; compared to 53% of Cornell grads.
If you are interested in some of these 3 high paying fields, Cornell likely a significant edge. Elite Wall Street banking/consulting type companies are known for favoring more prestigious colleges, and they are some of the most common employers in the Cornell survey. Richmond doesn’t offer an engineering program, and Richmond likely has far less SV connections for their few CS grads. If you want to go in to a different industry, the salaries are likely much more similar between the two colleges, particularly if comparing similar locations and years. I’d expect Richmond to have the edge in recruiting by local Richmond area companies, if he grew up near Richmond and wants to stay there after graduating. Salary differences are less relevant for a non-terminal degree, with future law school.
However, there is far more to consider when deciding on a college than starting salary. For example, what does he like/dislike about Richmond and how is that likely to change at Cornell? You mentioned ILR. Does Richmond offer something similar to the planned ILR majors? How do the colleges compare in those fields? How do finances compare? And so on…
Worrying about law school or job prospects, for a current freshman - and speculative differences from Cornell vs Richmond - is not reason enough to transfer. Richmond is also " a great school that could lead to lots of different career paths."
If you have a bright and able kid, that determines his future more than trying to weigh salary averages. You want him to be empowered where he is, thrive, reach his own best, in the right environment for him. You want him engaged in ways that let him grow.
Why this pressure? (And why do you note a BS, rather than BA?) And what does your son think?
Is he?
Does he love long cold winters?
Richmond is a small LAC and Cornell is a large Uni with 7 different colleges. Which school would your son thrive in? I went to a small LAC, similar to Richmond. Both of my kids went to Cornell. They enjoyed opportunities Cornell had to offer. They took classes at different Cornell colleges, but also knew students and professors within their majors. My older daughter got her job (banking) through Cornell’s campus recruiting. My younger daughter also got her law internship through Cornell connection. When D2 was applying to law schools she received a lot of guidance and great LORs from her professors. At the same time, we often like to refer to Cornell as a big red machine. It is very efficient, but a student would need to advocate for him/herself. There is not much hand holding at Cornell.
It is reasonable for parents to have angst about their kid’s career prospect after college. Time goes by very fast. Most students start doing internships as early as freshman year. One internship leads to another. How many parents come on this board to ask for advice and vent when their students do not have a job upon graduation? I always advise prospective students to visit school’s career center instead of worrying about school’s dorm. It is great to learn for the sake of learning, but when you are paying 250K+ I think it is reasonable to think about ROI.
At the end of day, if your kid likes a small LAC environment and Cornell is too big of a stretch for you financially then it may not be a good idea for him to transfer. But for a smart kid who loves to learn, for him to have access to 7 different colleges at Cornell (from taking courses to transfer to any of those colleges) is something he wouldn’t have at Richmond and many other colleges.
My first thought was why the heck would a pre-law kid be getting a BS? I have no idea where your kid would thrive, I still wonder if my younger son would have been better off at his safety getting A’s instead of at Tufts, where it took much longer for him to get his footing. He’s a naval officer now, not something I would ever in a million years have predicted when he was a freshman. He could have gone anywhere to do that! He’s happy with the education he received.
Cornell is not for everyone. It might be right for your kid, or it might not.
How does your S like Richmond so far? Does he share your concerns/angst? Has he already decided law is off the table, and if so, what other careers appeal to him? Good outcomes data, whether salary or company based, are not available, so one can’t make an accurate comparison of those factors between Cornell and Richmond. S should go where he feels the best fit. FWIW, many top companies do recruit at Richmond, including several (maybe all) FAANG, top 4 accounting/consulting firms, FBI, CIA and many more.
Not sure why this would be a question, since degree title (BS versus BA) can vary depending on school policy. Cornell ILR offers a BS degree, while Richmond offers both BS and BA degrees, with BS degrees being available in all of the sciences, environmental studies, interdisciplinary studies, mathematical economics, and psychology. Pre-law students can be in any major (only about a fifth of LSAT takers are in political science, the most popular major) and a wide range of colleges, so it should not be unusual for a pre-law student to be in a BS degree program.
Some colleges and universities do make detailed career survey data by major available, but they appear to be a small minority of all colleges and universities. Unfortunately, Richmond and Cornell are not among them (Cornell has limited data by division).
They are both great schools. He should be where he is going to feel connected and thrive. How he does after graduation is largely up to him.
FWIW, My eldest graduated Richmond in May, about to finish a 6 month internship and just landed a well paying job in her field with benefits, vacation and a 401k. Our middle is a Freshman there now and loves it. They wanted a small school where they get a lot of personal attention and that’s what they got/are getting. If your son doesn’t see himself thriving at Richmond and Cornell isn’t going to put him in debt then It’s worth exploring. Just remember the grass is greener is a game that has no real end lol.
In response to some questions, S is not having angst. But, he is the type of person who is able to not think about anything that would cause him anxiety or upset. He is the least stressed person we’ve ever met, which is great in some ways, not so great in others (he ends up putting things off, not getting into groups he wants, etc.)
The only reason this is an issue right now is because the transfer option requires that he take a couple classes and spring registration is very soon.
He has no idea what he wants to major in now. He likes the idea of the philosophy, politics, economics and law major at Richmond, because the classes are seminars where they discuss and debate. But, he doesn’t think he’d like a policy type job. They also have a leadership major, which sounds interesting to him. But, again, he’s not sure about the jobs from that major.
He has no interest in anything STEM, though was good at math and science (took calc BC (5) in 11th, logic and probability in 12th). His strengths are an incredible memory and persuasion and public speaking. We suggested he check out something in the business school, maybe finance or accounting, but he won’t know what he likes until he takes classes or joins clubs related to different areas.
We do know a lot about the ILR major. It sounds great to me, but I’m a lawyer (i would have loved this program). S thinks sports management, one of their subareas, sounds interesting but doesn’t really know, not having researched jobs at this juncture.
S is incredibly social, so made immediate friends at Richmond. He did not get involved with various clubs that might have given him insight right away because he thought he had time and also didn’t meet with career services, or any faculty because he was focusing on social life and then learning about the amount of work he needed to put in for college vs high school.
In sum, yes, this is my angst about whether S would be better served with the Cornell brand vs Richmond (BA or BS). Husband and I went into “safe” careers (law/med), and though I’m not currently working, the Ivy brand for law school has served me well.
S will make the decision, I just wanted others opinions for his input. S also realizes he needs to get a job at the end of the 4 yrs and wants something where his earning potential would be high (at least upper-middle class, like he grew up). We can afford Cornell. We went the merit aid route bc we assumed he’d go to grad school and S had stats that would get him merit aid at good schools. And, I don’t think where you go for undergrad matters as much as grad school, but what if there is no grad school?
OP - Here is a link to the the ILR post grad report: https://www.ilr.cornell.edu/sites/ilr.cornell.edu/files/ILR_CS_BachelorsDataBrochure_Final_2.pdf
Don’t know if Richmond has something similar but it sounds like your son isn’t 100% sure about his intended major. You may want to take a closer look at the ILR course of study because he have more flexibility at Richmond to explore his interests.
I agree with you that undergrad matters more is there is no grad school on the horizon. That said, almost all the ILR grads I know went on for MBAs at some point.
@havenoidea thanks for the additional input.
How did your son get the transfer to Cornell? Was it his first choice school and his acceptance was a guaranteed transfer option? Or did he initiate the transfer application while at Richmond? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.
Anyway, I do believe the Ivy brand (as you’ve experienced) does give advantages. I’m partial to Cornell as my son attends and I’ve seen firsthand the benefits of the education and opportunities at the school. The most important thing should be the overall fit for your son and where he thinks he could thrive and meet his goals. I wouldn’t stress too much on how he will do post grad. Most kids do just fine after college with some wisdom from parents.