<p>i wonder how many essays does the average applicant write... cuz i've done 4 but 2 of them satisfy about 9 schools</p>
<p>From the above link:</p>
<p>"But acceptance rates are not high only for these groups. Athletes and students with 800 SAT scores also gain admission at a disproportionately high rate, Dean of Admissions Karl Furstenberg said. Rates are also higher for students with exceptional essays and above-4.0 GPAs. With so many people applying for admission at one of the top 10 schools in the country, it takes a combination of many factors to get that thick envelope come April."</p>
<p>How much do the SATIIs play into the admission process? Shouldn't my 800 math and 800 writing hold some weight? I'm certainly not confident that I'll get into Dartmouth, just hopeful. My essay is exceptional, and I believe that my rec's are also. EC's include math and science awards, summer study at Brown, Leadership conference, captain of math team, varsity letters in 5 sports, peer ministry, comm. service, and my passion, the piano. My peer evaluator is my best friend and guidance told me that she wept when she read my evaluation. An extreme reach....I hope that you're wrong, but I do appreciate your comments. Your post made me sit down and write the sup. essays for George Washington Univer. and College of Holy Cross! Here is my list:
GWU, Holy Cross, Williams, Boston C, Dartmouth, Johns Hopkins, Duke, Cornell. Thanks for any suggestions.</p>
<p>the school my daughter was admitted to- required I think 3 essays- she also submitted a graded research paper(recommended/required) recommendations from college advisor and two teachers- and she may have even submitted recommendation from her boss.
this I think was a lot- but it was also the only private school she applied to- so we didn't know that it was unusual</p>
<p>Ikkin:</p>
<p>Your list looks good to me. I'd wanted to go back and add Holy Cross to my list of suggestions. I'm glad it's on yours.
We just want to be prudent. We parents have vicariously experienced the heartache of applicants who did not get into any of their schools or had to fall back on a safety they did not care for because all the other schools on their list were reaches and/or crapshoots. My motto is hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I'm glad you're writing the essays.</p>
<p>Unbelievable, You've missed my point entirely.</p>
<p>"The problem is that parents & applicants keep trying to catch up with what the admissions committees are looking for." I precisely said it the other way: start from the student-centered approach, not vice-versa. (But I never said or implied that that would guarantee an admission at a Great Fit school, just ensure that the Fit was communicated more naturally, more logically. That's what I meant by "no-brainer.") Doesn't mean that the No-brainer always gets admitted; it means that he or she is a damn sight closer to serious consideration than dozens of students in the last 2 years who have been posting on CC's Ivy forums with no clue as to why they want to go to those places, save the "prestige," being at "the best," etc. That would include the so-called "superstars who don't get in," btw.</p>
<p>Yes, life is not fair: Some great people don't get to be President, get into their favorite college, get recognized for the fine people they are -- sometimes never in life, but only at their funerals. Were you born yesterday?</p>
<p>This situation is a disappointment for sure, but definitely not a crisis. The strategies that are important, & possibly helpful in preventing immense disappointment include NOT COUNTING ON SELECTIVE ADMISSIONS. (Hello) And this is for all the reasons you say, unbelievable. And yes, it includes the "superstars." No, you CANNOT outguess the situation. That seems to be what you are frustrated about, or with. Who said it was necessary to outguess? Or that it could be done? The applicant & parents have only so much control. It is limited, but i.m.o. that control is still underutilized & misunderstood to some extent. I don't want to go on about the particulars of that because people like carolyn, interesteddad & others in the last 12 months have enunciated some of these strategies likely to assure SOME success & limit bewilderment, shock, & panic. Perhaps I've added constructive ideas in that dep't in the last yr.; I don't remember. I certainly know that I've shared those ideas widely, generously among friends, associates, & strangers; many never thought of those ideas or strategies but have expressed gratitude & at least they have been able to approach the college process with less confusion (they've told me) & with more concrete perspectives. Many of these "ideas and strategies" are just common sense & logic; others are a result of educated guesses based on research.</p>
<p>It is a crisis if the family considers admission to particular U's as the be-all & end-all of life & the future. If the non-predictability of what the family considers "selective admission" is such an issue, then perhaps one just shouldn't try for any level of college besides a statistical & niche safety for that student. Then there will be no need to "try to figure it all out."</p>
<p>ikkin, I want to add that I basically like your list, but you might consider substituting one of these 4 (Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, Williams) with one slightly less selective. While Boston C. might be a Match, Williams might be Match/Reach for you as recent trends have been going. (That may sound nutty spoken to someone with a couple of 800 SAT's, but Williams has been happily accepting many turned away from Ivies.) Make sure that whatever you personally consider your Match schools include well-articulated descriptions of your strengths & your attraction to those schools, & that that group in particular gets run by a trusted adult -- teacher, relative, GC.</p>
<p>I think GWU is a safety for ikkin. I have never heard of anyone with her stats getting rejected from GWU. Holy Cross is probably also pretty safe. You might want to add a large State U, like Michigan, which goes by the numbers. Your numbers will get you in. The issue is the scholarship money, of course. How much are you willing to PAY for one of your safeties if reaches and matches do not work out? That is the reason to add more schools on the level of GWU, not because you won't get into GWU --you will, but scholarships are variable. I would not substitute anything for Dartmouth, Cornell, Duke, Williams. Keep these, but add one more on the lower end.</p>
<p>I agree, clover, that GWU is a safety for ikkin. I suggested the substitution of a match, not a safety, for one of the reaches -- not because I think she's not a terrific candidate, but because (1) She's from New England, which will make admission to some of those naturally harder; and (2) she has a lot of apps to send in & might want to prioritize by balancing out the 3 levels before she includes 4 reaches.</p>
<p>I really like JHU for you, ikkin. And since you like science & philosophy I think this is a terrific choice for you. I.m.o. you should put a lot of effort into that application + 2 or 3 of your reaches, then perhaps go ahead with that 4th reach. (Unless you've finished your reach apps -- sorry if you've said that already; didn't re-read that part.)</p>
<p>epiphany-
i was not commenting on your "entire point" - i was using a statement you made in order to introduce a point that i wanted to make. i happen to agree with some of the things you have said. you seem to be very defensive when i respond to something you have said -- i am trying to discuss the issues here. quite honestly, for the thousands of people reading this thread, whether or not i understood you is irrelevant - they can read what you say, they can read what i say and they can draw their own conclusions and post what they choose as well. if you think your postings are clear, that should be enough for you - you can say what you want without accusing someone who posts something else of "missing your point" or asking if i was "born yesterday." i don't think such comments add to the quality of discourse here - and i will not respond to any further ones.</p>
<p>there was a thread that i recall from a few months ago (i think) that was also about selective admissions - not sure if it was here on parents forum or not. but parents were trying to caution a student about his/her chances of admission at selective schools. the student noted that he/she had posted his/her stats on the forums for the schools in question and that students from those schools had responded that from what he/she posted he/she seemed to have a "good" chance because the stats were similar to those of admitted students they knew. the student took these assurances as really meaning he/she had a good chance of admission and it was very hard for other posters to convince he/she otherwise - i don't recall all the details of that thread and what if any "safeties" the person had, or what impact the other posts had on his/her ultimate conclusion.</p>
<p>I think this highlights the problem with the "what are my chances" or "here is my list of schools" postings we often see here. I think they often give a false sense of hope. Other students often respond based on who they know who was admitted. I've said it before -- you can't know your odds unless you really know about the kids who AREN'T admitted -- and except for a few schools who post admission stats such as the sites I previously listed here, or anecdotal stories - I haven't seen great info out there on this.</p>
<p>Unbelievable:
At EA and RD admissions times, many students post their admissions/rejections together with their GPAs/standardized scores and some other information (APs, ECs). It makes for very sobering reading. I'm assuming that in a couple of weeks some of that information will again be available on individual colleges' boards.</p>
<p>marite -
yep - i know ED decision time was a big sobering time for my daughter's friends last year - many were suddenly reexamining their RD application list more closely. Not just because they didn't get into their ED school, but because they saw how many of their friends, who they thought were fabulous, didn't get in either. (we were lucky - D got in ED.)</p>
<p>And of course the rejection postings here can provide that on a broader basis - but even those don't really give a full view. the reports are of course filtered through the lens of the students who often think some great injustice has been done or can't begin to see a broader picture. and often a natural response by some readers is to assume that there must be something else that the poster just isn't saying that would "explain" the rejections. Certainly, you get a better picture when you see all the schools' decisions for an applicant - but even then, it is often hard to decipher any rhyme or reason to it -- though surely the adcom had SOME reason for making its decision.</p>
<p>It's tough - when its the handful of kids you know, it really hits home because you are more likely to know more about them - but you only have a relatively small sampling for your conclusions. With the posts here, you can get a much broader sampling, but you don't know all the details about the kids to help you draw conclusions - we all know how postings just don't always tell the full story, even when someone is trying to do so.</p>
<p>Certainly the posting by andi about her son were extremely sobering - especially as we got to read his progress as things unfolded. I thnk that should be required reading here on CC!</p>
<p>Unbelievable:</p>
<p>We can only guess at the unknown factors. As you say, many students think that an injustice has been done if a student with stellar "stats" does not get in. But they (we) need to remember that colleges try to build classes and that many applicants have hooks or are (dis)advantaged by geography or other elements outside their control. I don't know that we will ever get a full picture. And even if we did-- the knowledge, for example, that someone got in with lesser stats than a schoomate because s/he played an instrument that was in demand in a particular year--, it wouldn't help applicants for the next year (though it might help four years later when the admitted student had graduated!). Building a class sometimes does involve admitting students with unique skills, but unique only in a particular context at a particular time.</p>
<p>"Building a class sometimes does involve admitting students with unique skills, but unique only in a particular context at a particular time."</p>
<p>Couldn't agree more! I think applicants have to understand that while they have some control over how they present themselves, there will always be admission factors they have no control over and simply cannot predict. Which is why I think it so important for applicants to realistically appreciate the chances of rejection - regardless of how their application compares to those admitted.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've said it before -- you can't know your odds unless you really know about the kids who AREN'T admitted -- and except for a few schools who post admission stats such as the sites I previously listed here, or anecdotal stories - I haven't seen great info out there on this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a very important point, a basic principle of statistics that is too often neglected.</p>
<p>In a way, I see that as a good thing. SAT scores are the lowest form of mesuring academic achievement/ability. What's, of course, not so good is the fact that many exceptional students continue to get rejected.</p>
<p>Regarding Post #109, I was not expressing defensiveness; I was expressing exasperation, as many of the points you had continued to argue, had been addressed not just by me but by many others, & not just on this thread. And I like how when people don't see or hear the answer they wish for, they "end the conversation." That's very constructive. </p>
<p>(Just P.S: several people have PM'ed me about my posts in this thread being clear, for starters. Those were not PM's prompted by me; those were PM's initiated by other CC'ers.)</p>
<p>Nor did I say you missed "my entire point." I said you "missed my point [regarding fit] entirely." Adverb, not adjective. Resulting in different meaning/emphasis. Like you, I was singling out an aspect that I believed you misinterpreted.</p>
<p>As to Post #110, much heartache would be saved if CC students would read RECENT PAST ADMISSIONS RESULTS (which include stats & summaries) on the archived threads, prior to applying to Harvard & many other selective schools as a non-hooked candidate with a 3.6 GPA, 580 SATs & no outstanding e.c.'s. (Theoretical example, but close.) The last 2 app. yrs have provided abundant evidence on CC as forewarnings & foreshadowings for potential applicants -- esp. for the Ivies, but also for Public Reaches.</p>
<p>To me, the "tragedy," if there is one, is not that just that many of this year's students will be shocked, it is that they will have wasted their time unnecessarily, when they could have been doing a better Search job & a far better application job (therefore).</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>"Building a class sometimes does involve admitting students with unique skills, but unique only in a particular context at a particular time."<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>This is where LUCK comes into the highly selective college app process. . .</p>
<p>We experienced first hand the year-to-year change in admissions. Oldest daughter applied to one of the most selective conservatories as violin performance major. She was waitlisted. In the end, no one was taken from the violin waitlist due to very high yield that year and last minute efforts to find a spot for her failed because the CHAMBER MUSIC PROGRAM WAS ENTIRELY FULL -- COULDN'T ACCOMMODATE ONE MORE VIOLINIST. After a year at another conservatory, she re-applied, auditioned, and was accepted as a transfer student. In evaluating her placement, they found that although she had already taken a first-year chamber music course, that requirement would not be waived in her case because THIS YEAR THEY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH VIOLINISTS FOR THE CHAMBER MUSIC PROGRAM. We were able to get this visibility into the admissions process because of the small size of the the conservatories (small number of students accepted per year) and candid interactions with admissions staff/teachers -- something that wouldn't normally be visible to an applicant.</p>
<p>Parel: Most of the parents who complain about the difficulty of college admissions don't have a hint how difficult it can be. Those of us who have had kids going through the audition process have a different perspective.</p>