<p>"I think rather than leadership, what some schools are looking for could be described as initiative. Sometimes that coincides with leadership, if someone starts a project and others get on board, or simply takes the reins to get something moving. But initiative can also manifest itself in solitary, when someone takes it upon him/herself to solve a problem or develop a new way of doing things. "</p>
<p>I agree that “initiative” is a good description of what the top schools look for.</p>
<p>we had an adm dir from brown who used to be at harvard come to talk to the 8th grade parents about future admission…he said he’d take a kid who just had a plain old “job” these days over someone building a latrine in south america or africa - he said the world must be full of new toilets with the amount of kids having this on their resume…he also said they look for kids with “character”…it speaks volumes.</p>
<p>Aw, now let’s define “character”, without using the word “initiative”, “leadership”, or disparaging rich kids.</p>
<p>“building a latrine in south america or africa” is a lot easier than doing something in our own backyard/inner-city, IMO.</p>
<p>I agree with lake42ks. It’s far easier to pay money to go abroad and do some kind of highly organized community service abroad than it is to organize a useful service project in one’s community or to regularly volunteer in a way that makes a difference in one’s home area.</p>
<p>It’s also harder to work a fast food job or to work as a cashier or waitress than it is to do community service abroad. I’ve volunteered abroad and at home and when I was a high school and college student worked very ordinary jobs, including cleaning a woman’s home, so I speak from experience.</p>
<p>In general, I would hope that admissions people would realize that not everyone could afford the trip to South America or Africa (on the other hand, if they’re looking for full-pay, then maybe that’s a good indication).</p>
<p>I also think that a continuing relationship (multiple, regular volunteer events with a single group) should count more than a single event/trip.</p>
<p>Repeating myself, from post #25:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I participate regularly in awarding for leadership. Not a single one of my finalists has ever gone to an exotic land. But here’s what they all have in common: sacrifice, generosity, commitment, persistence, and willingness to risk – all of which often also result in an embrace of creativity for the sake of the “cause.” Some of them were clearly always “born leaders,” but many of them reluctantly accepted (like some of our Founding Fathers) positions of leadership where a void existed, and the cause, they realized, depended on them. In other words, they have all been genuine, proven idealists, shaped by the cause itself. In those senses, the candidates align perhaps more with the earlier remark about ‘character.’ Leadership is not about power or self-promotion. (That’s one misunderstood aspect of it.)</p>
<p>All I really meant to say in the OP was that the book made more sense to me now that I’ve been through the whole college thing - twice. </p>
<p>The first time, I had no clue. My older son got a B&L scholarship from UofR, so we thought - cool, why not go there? I have no recollection of even how that came about. Seems like that happened before he applied. I do know he looked at MIT and Georgia Tech, but totally on his own. Unbelievable, looking back on it. Just no clue whatsoever. </p>
<p>With the second kiddo, I got waaaay into it (I discovered CC, for one thing). We visited lots of schools and I had my spreadsheets and … if you’re on this site, you know the whole routine. I was devouring books like Harvard Schmarvard and The Gatekeepers and all kinds of guides to colleges, even if he wasn’t. Somehow, everything worked out in the end. </p>
<p>So I was curious and re-read the book. Things just seemed clearer to me when I didn’t have a vested interest.</p>
<p>Diggi:</p>
<p>I got the book because it was about the class that my S was in. Thankfully, he was not in the book!</p>
<p>^^The Overachievers was about a group of my daughter’s friends and acquaintances at Harvard. Thankfully, she was not in the book!</p>
<p>“Proportionately, I think that more alums of Harvard and similar schools are involved in leadership positions including in things like PTAs than is the case of public and other types of universities.”
I don’t know… it seems they’re so busy running nations and corporations, etc. that I think they really don’t have time for PTAs. Of course, I don’t have figures for that but I suspect neither do you.
Marite: re#25 and #107 - Well done!</p>
<p>“I don’t know… it seems they’re so busy running nations and corporations, etc. that I think they really don’t have time for PTAs. Of course, I don’t have figures for that but I suspect neither do you.”</p>
<p>It’s silly to think that all HPYS and similar schools’ alum are running nations and corps. Those schools deliberately choose applicants reflecting diverse interests and career goals. Consequently, many alums are not business executives or political officials.</p>
<p>Even those who are business executives may have leadership positions in community organizations including ones like PTOs.</p>
<p>Certainly, I don’t have figures on this, but I do know that the alums I know of Harvard are active in their communities including doing things like being involved in leadership roles in their kids’ schools PTAs.</p>
<p>i’d be willing to bet the First Lady is active in the PTA. I bet she was when she was a big-time lawyer too.</p>
<p>NSM - You said that alums of H and similar schools are proportionately more involved in PTAs than grads of public and other universities. I just find that to be a rather large leap in logic. If you have research information to support that claim, I would like to read it.</p>
<p>^Agreed. Seems to be a big leap and a very questionable assumption.</p>
<p>I just read this book as well, and I was amazed at how much influence some guidance counselors have with admissions officers. It certainly seems like sending your kid to an elite private high school makes a huge difference, with kids having SATs in the 1200s (for two sections) getting into Wesleyan, or in one case, Cornell. (I know they were careful to mention public high schools in the book, but it seemed obvious to me.)</p>
<p>I don’t have research info, and can’t find research info on that. I can say, however, that I know lots of Harvard alum and lots of state U alum, and it’s rare that the Harvard alums I know aren’t involved in a leadership way in some organizations in their communities. I haven’t found that to be true of alum who didn’t go to schools like Harvard, and that makes sense to me because Harvard and similar schools factor leadership and EC involvement into admissions. Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, so it seems likely that people who were active leaders and very involved in ECs in h.s. would be similarly involved after college graduation.</p>
<p>Note: I’m not saying that only alum of places like Harvard are active in leadership roles in organizations. Of course, there are plenty of people who have such roles who didn’t graduate from top universities. I’m saying that the proportion of alum active in leadership roles is, I believe, higher for Harvard and for similar colleges, than for students who went to colleges that didn’t consider leadership as admission factors.</p>
<p>My S went to a public high school. If you look at the average stats, they’re below the national average. But it’s bi-modal insofar as it has a high proportion of FRL students of immigrant background and sometimes limited English but also a good number of children of professionals, including children of MIT/Harvard/Tufts/BU profs.
The school sends several students to Wesleyan every year. I have no idea whether the Wes adcom knows the GCs at the high school. But the GCs seem to have a very good idea of which students to steer toward Wes. Another factor is that the school has a relatively high number of GCs who are able to help students put together a good list of colleges, rather than pushing them toward the state school and probably are able to write knowledgeably about individual applicants. I know it was the case for my S.</p>
<p>Never read the “overachievers” but I got it on my Kindle after reading about it here this morning and started it at the basketball game warm ups. It’s interesting.</p>
<p>I liked the “Gatekeepers…” I always love the inside details and last year, with my D applying to schools, I just wanted all the inside details. I appreciated the honesty also about how well the kids did once they got to school, as well.</p>
<p>Seems like there’s always another challenge around the corner when you have kids.</p>