Kids are working too hard

Parents Forum
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<p>I’ve come to believe it is the schools themselves. Of course, the schools may be responding to a nervous twitch exhibited by some obsessive parents, but in the end the schools themselves create the conditions that almost demand over-achievement from kids who are academically inclined and desire to take the interesting courses.</p>

<p>It has been pointed out that we are really talking about only the top 5-10% of academically inclined or pressured kids. If a student desires to take the more interesting and academically challenging courses they will be weighed down to the point of walking with a permanent slouch.</p>

<p>I have a hard time believing parents who say that they did not pressure their children, as curmudgeon does. However, I want to…and in the end I do…believe them, because we find ourselves drifting in the same scholastically ambivalent boat. </p>

<p>Our daughter spent her formative years in Canada. Our family has been very involved in a few social/cultural issues over the years to the point that our home was (literally) a public place with strangers passing in and out on a daily basis. Our daughter grew up serving food, bed rolls and tea to many a people who passed through our doors since she was 6 years old. </p>

<p>For the most part we never even thought about her education other than attending the obligatory parent teacher meetings (K-6th). We always got the same report: “she’s a very considerate girl and a good student” but never anything that would indicate a scholastic gift of any kind.</p>

<p>We were happy enough and just hoped she would one day go to college—we lived off McGill’s campus and thought it would be wonderful if she could go to McGill, with a little luck, and continue living at home (such as it was, homeless refugees and all) and helping us in the life we had chosen to live.</p>

<p>We moved from Montreal to Maryland when she was in 7th grade and for the first time in years we had a private family life—no phone calls (not even an answering machine) sailing on the Chesapeake and planting our gardens in our little cape cod we’d redecorated on the bay. </p>

<p>Again, we had no input on the classes she would take and I don’t ever recall seeing her grades. We were always more concerned with how she was being received by the American kids in her new environment.</p>

<p>We had to move her again in 10th grade: from Maryland to a rather competitive/intense school district in N. Jersey. We hated doing that to her, but at the time we were financially constrained to do otherwise. She didn’t feel as comfortable in this suburban school, but she seemed to be making the best of it, she was in marching band and joined a few clubs. Again, we thought we had—in Garrison Keller’s terms—an above average child, but certainly no—to use Carolyn’s term—superstar.</p>

<p>Coming out of her junior year, we were surprised to find out she had won some science awards at the state level in chemistry (we weren’t there to see it; she didn’t think it was important [?]) was the president of the club she had joined (philosophy), President of student council, Chairperson of another, treasurer of another and in her senior year valedictorian. We were dumbfounded…you just can’t imagine!</p>

<p>So, other than bragging about my daughter, I have nothing to add as to why some kids excel. It can’t just be pressure from parents; we gave all our time and love to her, but we were scholastic slackers as parents. I do see some parents acting in the ways described in this thread (and detect this same thing in some of the parents on cc). With high or low expectations from the schools and parents, I wonder if certain kids will excel academically—even against our best efforts.</p>

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<p>Woodwork - "in the end the schools themselves create the conditions that almost demand over-achievement from kids who are academically inclined and desire to take the interesting courses"</p>

<p>I agree it's the schools that are setting up the framework that the kids are following and I think that framework is driven by the admissions decisions major universities and selective colleges are making.</p>

<p>Oringinaloog - There are kids who have a passion for something, absolutely, they should go for it. But most of our top students IMO are BWRKs and are being driven but the schools and the admissions craze to the point of exhaustion. As I wrote earlier, any one or more of the activities and courses these kids are taking are great things, its just the over load and excess that worries me. In Woodwork's D's case I can imagine a bright high energy kid who shares her parent's passion for involvement. In her case its expressed in school club activities and excelling in class and beyond. Even though she is probably busy from dawn til dusk, there are kids who are doing what she is doing and then adding some major extra activity beyond it; sports, drama, volunterring whatever. It gets crazy, and I do think unhealthy at some point.</p>

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<p>In north jersey, no one becomes valedictorian by chance, unless it is a school where all students with straight A's are valedictorians.</p>

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<p>Just getting this article over here. But what about the case that, as a nation of immigrants, America is full of hypomanics; ie restless, over achieving success nuts?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7130101/site/newsweek/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7130101/site/newsweek/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I believe this is has elements of truth. Another article on this book has just been posted. See "Ultra-achiever or Hypo-maniac"</p>

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<p>Calmom,
We don't live in CA, where there is an abundance of wonderful state options, but our public state and local schools do have some fine programs. I went to one for undergraduate, had a good education, and enjoyed my time there. However, our region also has quite a variety of wonderful well-known and unknown LAC's, that I believe are far under utilized by the graduates of our HS. I'm not looking for the "elite" options. But, I do know there are many other colleges students rarely seem to choose. Again, I'm not sure of the reasons, and as previously mentioned, it could be financially driven.</p>

<p>When we first approached our Guidance dept. and listed our son's college choices (which consisted of state schools, and a variety of others including safeties and stretches), the comment we received was "They are just looking for your money". I was shocked. Yes, some were more expensive schools, which we could never afford without some type of merit aid. No, they were not HPY. It turned out he stretched...he applied anyway, wrote the extra essays, asked for the additional recommendations, and received some wonderful choices thankfully with good merit aid. I have heard statements (from the GC's) that they don't believe in the IVY's, but if that's what the family wants to do, they would accommodate. Now, I must admit, they were very accommodating of my son's choices (which were not IVY's except for one), and bent over backwards for the extra work he required, but that is not the same as encouraging these students to look beyond their borders at the beginning of the process. </p>

<p>Back to the original topic...
Another reason I think some kids work so hard today, is because the stakes are so much higher. Not only is it more popular and necessary to go to college, it is a more global world ( as previously mentioned by ASAP), and thus more competitive. It is also so very expensive compared to our college experiences. Our combined income, for example, is about 1.5x my parents' income when I went to college. But public schools today cost about 5x what mine cost. My son's college price tag (before aid) is more than 10x that of mine! I try to explain to my D, that pushing herself a little now, will potentially give HER more options for college. She can choose to sit back, relax, enjoy HS, and not worry about the future, but then her only options will be the local state school. Not bad...but also less choice. If, she pushes a little (academically AND in extracurriculars), she MAY be more eligible for merit aid, and thus have a greater selection. That's NOT suggesting that we push to the point of exhaustion. Hopefully it is a "gentle" push.</p>

<p>Some say it must come from the child. That's great if it does, but sad when it doesn't. And if it is true, that only 5% are overachievers, do we have a typical bell curve w/ 5% "underachievers", and the rest somewhere in between, or do the 90% just need a little more encouragement? I also tried to "gently" push my son. At the time, I know I was the "nag". His first college break from college, he actually thanked us, for helping him get to where he is!!! (music to a parent....). Of course the last college break, he yelled at me for bugging him about something! ;-) My daughter had to be persuaded to try a certain summer activity years ago. At the time, she was so mad that we "bugged" her about it. She did so reluctantly...and has enthusiastically returned ever since.</p>

<p>I guess I'm just rambling about the OP statement..."kids are working too hard"... In some areas, I believe the answer is yes, but due to the competitive circumstances in our world, they need to. But in other areas, I believe the majority of students are actually not working that hard, and need more (hopefully gentle) encouragement than they currently receive.</p>

<p>Thanks Cheers...You're right! That is one Coward for which I definitely qualify! (the needless worry award). I'm getting the lines in my face to prove it too! Your drive didn't start until 19 1/2? If the drive didn't start until Sophomore year (college), how could you get into that wonderful program? Most architectural programs (not all I know) start at the undergraduate level. Did you only choose the graduate route? Do you think, w/ your background, you would be eligible for the same program today? I don't think my graduate school would have accepted my stats today, again pointing to the fact that kids HAVE to work harder to even have the same choices we had.</p>

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<p>I think it's also the dominant culture in many upper middle to high income level areas that fuels this kind of manic drive to be the best. Kids are being ferried around to 8+ activities a week at the age of 6 while being signed up for 4 different sports in the hope of landing them a recruited athletes' spot eleven years down the road. In my northern NJ/NY metro area high school, at least, it's a competition as to who is the most sleep- deprived, who does the most after school, who gets in where. I don't know if it's the same in other parts of the country, but the prevailing sense of having to hold one's own in this competition is very real where I go to school.</p>

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<p>Kjofkw, having been on both sides of the LAC issue, I have to say that the reason most kids probably choose their state university over local LACs (or even distant, non-elite LACs), is (a) cost, and (b) the universities offer more options and choices. Yes the universities are big, crowded, & impersonal -- but their size means they offer more majors, more course offerings within a department, and more room for change. All you have to do is scan the course catalog to see the difference.</p>

<p>This is not to bash the LAC's - as I said I really supported my son's desire to attend one. Unfortunately, that led to my seeing the drawbacks as well as the advantages. We had heard plenty of stories about how difficult it is for students at Cal to get the courses they want - but the same was true for the LAC - popular courses there filled up quickly, too. His college guaranteed that students would get at least some of their top choices ... but he also ended up with a hole in his schedule that finally was filled with the only class open to him - after attempts to get into 3 or 4 other classes he would have preferred as well as his initial choices. He was not interested in that class, not happy with it -- didn't like the prof... and performed dismally. I know that with the UC system getting into his first choice classes would have been equally daunting.... but he would have had a much broader array of electives to choose from to round out his schedule. That's just one example.</p>

<p>My view may be skewed because I am in California, where the University is also far more prestigious than many of the less competitive private LACs, such as Whittier or Redlands. My son was accepted at both Pitzer and UC Santa Cruz -- they were not his top choices, so never seriously considered -- but if it had come to those two, I would have advocated Santa Cruz over Pitzer. I actually think those two colleges are about equal in terms of academic quality -- and I think that my son would have preferred Pitzer -- but with the merit award USCS offered, my son would have been paying $2000 annual tuition to attend. </p>

<p>I'm sorry that you encountered such a poor attitude on the part of your GC's -- that part's inexcusable. I can see how you see them as limiting the student's options if they can't even give accurate information and honest advice. </p>

<p>But getting back to the issue of the kids working too hard -- I think that the push toward private colleges is a big factor. Definitely the elite colleges are getting more competitive -- but at least here in California, with our university system - EVERY kid can to go college. Even kids who do dismally in high school have a great chance of getting into the UC system, because of the fact that the community colleges are open to all, and the UC system favors transfers from the community college over all other potential transfers. So a kid who flubs high school can have a fresh start at the local cc. </p>

<p>So basically, to push kids to look out of state or to look for private options IS to make the process far more competitive and complex, as well as to create huge financial concerns that don't otherwise exist for many. Then the student has to work harder, to qualify for possible merit aid at private colleges with less prestige than the local university, in order to compensate for their higher tuition -- when the university tuition is already affordable. The state university system is numbers driven -- no one has to worry about their EC's or recs -- just take the required courses and try to make the grade, without trying to juggle 16 other activities or save the world in your spare time. </p>

<p>It seems to me that too many parents- and students - are looking at the college choice as if its the last choice the student will make in their life, rather than the first one. If my kid goes to college across the bay, it doesn't mean that she wil be doomed to a life of mediocrity tethered to the SF bay area -- she will still have options to study abroad, options to take summer jobs and internships in other parts of the country, and a wide array of choices to make after she graduates. My son's job requires him to travel all the time. My daughter plans to major or concentrate on a foreign language in college -- her language proficiency will open up a world of opportunities internationally, whether she gains that proficiency at on the east coast or the west.</p>

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<p>As a high school student at a private Boston area school (not a "prep school." though it is slowly becoming one-).... </p>

<p>I think that stress is today's unnoticed major problem. In that people say, when anyone brings up stress, "It's a part of life. Just deal with it." Junior year I was stressed and tired all the time, and for part of senior year too.... Stress was both internal (motivated, has perfectionist and procrastination tendencies) and external (wants merit scholarships.) But I refused to participate in things I didn't want to just for college. I'll admit that sometimes I would totally break and just cry at night and not know how to get out of it. I took several mental health days. I think they're a good idea and I'm lucky my parents supported them-- sometimes, you have one project too many due and if you're at the point of cracking, if you don't take a day to sleep in your immune system's so down cause of stress you'll end up getting sick anyways. </p>

<p>Anyways, I thought I was crazy for my crying habits. And then I talked to my friends and other people in the grade and it turns out that, for the girls in the grade anyways, at least 50% had the same sort of behavior. I felt better, because people tend to hide this sort of thing and it's still rather weird posting it on an internet forum. But that so many students are this upset is insane. </p>

<p>Anyways, in December when stressed reached a peak and winter set in, I realized that you have to treat overbearing stress as a real problem and actively look for solutions. Some day I really want to develop a stress / relief curriculum for those high schools that need it, or even some sort of pamphlet, website, whatever. People don't really look to solve their stress problems. But I asked myself: If there were a bunch of people sitting in a room trying to solve my problem, what would they say? I was also not sleeping enough or well at all, so I turned to: (I post the list in hopes of it helping someone)
a. baths
b. aromatherapy bubble bath! hand lotion, whatever
c. relaxing music (like rivendell music from lord of the rings, or enya music)
d. trying to make a break between crazy work time & sleep
e. yoga
f. trying to eat less processed food
g. exercise (got a bike, since can't go outside for running in NE weather)
It worked. I wasn't totally unstressed, but it helped me manage things and get them to a healthier level so I wouldn't be so stressed I couldn't do much of anything. </p>

<p>So... I'm sorry if that got horribly rambly. I just thought it might help to post my own experience for those still going through this sort of thing... =/</p>

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<p>Calmom - </p>

<p>Aside from everything else that has been said on this thread, I think your statement:</p>

<p>"It seems to me that too many parents- and students - are looking at the college choice as if its the last choice the student will make in their life, rather than the first one." is right on the mark.
(Sorry, I don't know how to do the gray box quote thing :) )</p>

<p>My older child is finishing his junior year of college and I can't believe how fast the three years have gone by. He is already starting to formulate post-college plans, which will be the next in a continuing series of important choices he will make as he progresses through life.</p>

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<p>Sierra,
Terrific post with lots of input for others. I think it is fantastic that you were able to tell when the stress was no longer a positive thing in your life and then figure out what to do about it...including a few mental health days, which I think really can make a huge difference when used carefully. Since, as you have seen, there are so many kids with similar issues, and since you have found a set of effective strategies, it seems like, maybe with the help of the GC at your school, you could turn this in to an 'EC' (because you want to help others, not because you want it on your applications)...and host a "Stress- LESS" activity for your peers....</p>

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<p>Ok, I feel the need to make my opinion now, as a girl who went to an exclusive all-girls prep school. In all honesty I went there because of the academics, they were the best in my city and I loved to learn. Looking back on it I didn't like it much, but then I don't think I would've liked high school much no matter where I had gone.</p>

<p>My high school experience was different then those of other people and that was because ever since I was in 8th grade I knew I wanted to become an astronomer. Do you know what it's like to know something like that and have already found your passion? It means the rest of your peers are looking around clueless at the world treating college as the biggest descision in their lives whereas you just know you're going to get in somewhere anyway. It means kids will will be enrolled in your AP Chemistry class who hate chemistry but were told it would look good on their applications whereas you are the only person in there who does it because she likes to do it. It means if a B shows up on your transcript you shrug and move on with your life because had you tried for that A you would not know about sunspots or whatever strikes your fancy. Your teachers declare you the most frustrating student they have ever come accross and the person least stressfull person in the class, but so what? Your mom nags but your dad just tells you to not get Cs and it's not like you're partying or anything, you're just exploring your passion.</p>

<p>As a result at graduation my friends went off to Ivies whereas I set my sights on a great, albeit less well-known, university in the Midwest. All of a sudden it's different: teachers are excited to have you in your class and are willing to answer your questions without saying "you know if you spent this much time concentrating on your grades..." (My high school teachers prophecied that my college grades wouldn't take my laxness. They're actually better now then they ever were.) Also going to a college without a world-renowned name means different people: people who actually thought of why they went to college and not just jumping for the name because people told them that they should. They've actually put an ounce of thought into their descision, which I find just awesome.</p>

<p>The Ivy friends, however, are sort of floundering. They're off to become doctors or lawyers or such but get drunk and/or high on a regular basis as well. When I ask why they tell me they don't like their lives and they don't want to be doctors or lawyers or whatever, but suggesting they do what they want to do is alien to them. They've never done stuff for themselves: they've done it all because they were TOLD to do it. I've gotten frustrated people asking me "why is it that YOU get to be happy?!?" and, when refering to whatever passion they've long ago buried, "well I've grown up so don't have time for kid stuff like that." I want to just go to New Haven or Cambridge and just shake these people so they can see what life is really like, but they've never really seen it.<br>
They're up to their noses in papers due the next day for a class they never really liked anyway.</p>

<p>I often wonder why this is, and really I think a lot of it has to do with parental pressure (definetely a lot more then has been mentioned in this thread!). There are way too many kids out there who are being the duitiful daughter or son either by pressure or guilt who have yet to think of what they really want in life. Instead they are told what they want to be, which I find a truly frightening prospect. For example, one friend of mine will not call her parents for long conversations rehashing the past few days like I do, she'll call for quick two minute conversations asking stuff like "do you think I should make noodles or rice for supper?" or "do you think I should study for history or biology first?" The parents have yet to object and I can't help but wonder: do they really think she's going to call them on the sly asking if they think she should accept that job or put a down payment for that house? Here's the real question: if they claim all that pushing was to make her happy do they think she's happy being this indecisive creature who thinks that what she wants isn't that important?</p>

<p>Yes, I know, I need the standard disclaimer here that not everyone's kid is like that and not every parent is like this either. But somehow I get the feeling that the sort of people attracted to a college forum in the first place, who then relish in stats and rankings like they make or break the person, are more likely to be this type of parent then the average one pulled from the street. One of the most important things about being a teenager is discovering who you are, and if a kid is pushed too hard they are never going to have the chance to find the answer to that question.</p>

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<p>Go for it!
It sounds like you have known what you were doing for a long time.</p>

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<p>Stargirl: Good for you. I think you have really brought up a great point, though. If you are passionate about something that you do, you are less likely to get stressed-out than if you do things because you think it is the right thing to do, ie, will look good on your resume or your parents think you should do it. My son works at a camp during the summer. The hours are long, they sleep in tents, conditions are less than perfect. But, he loves his job and he is really excited about it. He comes home for 24 hours on the weekend to clean up, do laundry and he will often get on the computer to do research related to his job. I don't see the same passion during the school year from him. Many of the other kids take the job because it will look good on their college applications - those are the ones who burn out before the end of the summer and don't return a second year. I am glad to hear that college has been a different experience for you than high school was and good luck.</p>