<p>Hey, I'm new to the Law School board but after the great stuff I learned for my college app, I was hoping I would be able to find more of the same here.
I've recently decided on Law School and was wondering how feasible Harvard, Penn, NYU and Columbia (I'm definitely applying to Yale and Stanford as well but I don't fancy heading to the west and Yale appears to be quite a stretch for everyone) would be for someone with a mediocre GPA. Of course, I do plan on bringing it up (Freshman year brought with it a wonderful month of mono as well) but as it stands, I have a freshman GPA that is around a 3.6 at Princeton. I have a few ecs and managed to snag a leadership position in my freshman year but there is really nothing unique about my activities and nothing that I would expect to help me out much. Anyway, my general question is would I have a fairly good chance at those aforementioned schools with my current GPA? What sort of LSAT score would I need for a school like Harvard (175?)? And additionally, the reason my GPA isn't fantastic is because I take lots of difficult courses and take way more courses than is recommended. Additionally, I have lots of difficult courses that I don't really "need" but are in subjects I'm interested in. Would Law Schools actually look at the courses I'm taking or will they just consider my GPA (Would they really take a 4.0 Art major over a 3.7 Physics major?)? Sorry about having so many questions but any help would be really appreciated!</p>
<p>uve answered your own question</p>
<p>yes, 4.0 in art history > 3.7 in physics</p>
<p>this isn't like college. the people who will read your app (profs at times) have much better things to do. they don't spend a lot of time looking at your application. if you don't have the numbers or a massive hook-like minority status, you're pretty much disqualified unless you're a pulitzer prize winner or something. </p>
<p>90% of law school admissions is based on undergraduate GPA and LSAT. you won't get any special breaks because you chose to bite off more than you could chew. why? because other students with "hard" majors will also apply and they could very well have better numbers than you. so, why should YLS, HLS, or SLS take YOU instead of THEM. </p>
<p>change your major asap and good luck</p>
<p>Thanks for the prompt reply, but I don't plan to change my major for that purpose. I really love my major and the only thing that hurts is hard science that I take because I really want to do Patent Law. Wouldn't dropping those classes hurt me if I want to do Patent Law?</p>
<p>However, do you think law schools will take Princeton's new grade deflation scheme into account when comparing a Princeton applicant to one from a comparable school? And what kind of GPA/LSAT score is needed for the schools I mentioned? </p>
<p>Sorry for having so many questions but I'm quite new to the whole Law thing. I've always strongly considered Law but I've only recently decided on it after quite a bit of research and deliberation. I'd really like to learn more about the admissions process and appreciate all your help. Thanks!</p>
<p>well i don't know about the patent law question so ill skip to the others. </p>
<p>have you looked at this? </p>
<p>the higher your LSAT and GPA are, the better chance you have. there is no question about it. law school is not a place where admissions officers work around the clock to "round out the class." they want the smartest people in their halls. in their eyes, GPA and LSAT measure just that. the only way a normal, non-minority applicant can get into HLS, YLS, or SLW is by literally being smarter (or looking that way) than the vast majority of the applicants. </p>
<p>about grade deflation. i doubt it counts. why? because you have to remember that students come from hundreds of undergraduate institutions and a GPA is a GPA. </p>
<p>i very much doubt that an HLS admissions officer is up to date on how grade inflation is being dealt with at each and every school s/he gets apps from. yes, you're from princeton and they will probably know about PRINCETON. but will they give you an automatic leg up just because you went to a well known rival? i doubt it. also, don't forget that most state schools and liberal arts colleges practice SEVERE grade deflation. that is a well known fact. but nevertheless, their best students will probably apply to HLS. suppose for example an admissions officer is getting a first readthough of all the apps and a chemistry major from berkeley or swarthmore college with a 4.0/180 looks like an auto-admit (they don't even have to check with the profs!) amazed at the applicant's accomplishments, he goes out for some tasty coffee, comes back, double checks that he wasn't in lalaland when he read the app, and admits the sucker. just like that. after some minutes of chatting with his unlucky coworker who is desperately trying to plow through mediocre piles of 3.75s and 170s to find the gold she's looking for, he goes back to his desk, grateful that he's had much better luck than her (at least today!). so he goes about and opens your pile. 3.8. 175. chemistry. princeton. he laughs. "the nerve of some people" he thinks, "thinking they can get in when they're not the absolute best. he's not even a minority! hah! poor kid. i hope he's not too miserable when he's working under that godlike being i just admitted." </p>
<p>it may in reality be a lot less severe than that, but if the point is to make your chances the best they can be, then your goal in life right now should only be getting your GPA up as much as is humanely possible to do so. arguably, your LSAT score will skyrocket too. </p>
<p>i suggest reading through this FAQ if u haven't already dones so</p>
<p>good luck</p>
<p>
[quote]
i very much doubt that an HLS admissions officer is up to date on how grade inflation is being dealt with at each and every school s/he gets apps from.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You would be surprised. From what I have read, in addition to the college transcript, the adcom reviews the GPA of other students applying from the same institution. Whether or not one can conclude, from such evidence, that there is deflation or inflation, it seems to be of a decent indicator. </p>
<p>In addition, I read that adcoms review the average LSAT score from specific institutions.</p>
<p>perhaps, and that's why the applicants who want law above else will get the easiest classes/majors and spend the rest of their time pulling up that LSAT score. OP, get better at your multiple interests or find some easier interests. you will be rewarded.</p>
<p>Thanks a bunch, I think my best option would be to start using my pdfs. I figure that using a pdf on a course that is beyond what I need won't look bad. I've looked around for data similar to that which you pulled up for Yale and I can definitely see that I should really focus on improving my GPA. I'm not too worried about my LSAT score though, I'll have alot of time to prep and I've usually been pretty good with standardized testing. I figure that taking Logic next year will help a bunch too and I definitely plan to bust my ass off for the LSAT. </p>
<p>Few more questions (really sorry). What exactly do law schools consider a minority? I assume African American/Hispanic but it seems that Asians are awfully underrepresented in comparison to colleges and especially Medical Schools. Do law schools look upon Asian applicants as they would a Caucasian applicant (Unlike in college admissions)?
And how helpful would Parliamentary Debate be? I didn't have the time to join last year and I was hoping to join up this year. I'd love to do it and was wondering if Parly was one of the few things that would help aside from GPA/LSAT.</p>
<p>Here are some stats from Princeton students who applied to law school two years ago that should give you some idea of what the odds are:</p>
<pre><code> LAW SCHOOL STATISTICS - 2002-03
School# Applicants# Admitted
AMERICAN 46 24
BOSTON C. 58 20
BOSTON U. 58 18
COLUMBIA 168 53
DUKE 59 17
FORDHAM 63 22
GEORGETOWN 171 59
GEORGE WASH. 89 35
HARVARD 148 39
NYU 151 50
NORTHWESTERN 62 20
STANFORD 121 18
TEMPLE 20 11
TULANE 13 10
UC BERKELEY91 17
UCLA 48 12
U of CHICAGO88 30
U of MICHIGAN 57 20
U of PENN 101 23
UVA 97 45
VANDERBILT 26 6
WILLIAM & MARY 30 8
YALE 93 17
</code></pre>
<p>Your pre-law advising service should be able to tell you more about the GPA's and LSAT scores of accepted applicants.</p>
<p>3.6 is a solid freshman year GPA. Most people improve over the course of their undergraduate career; if you do likewise, and get in the 170's on the LSAT, and apply to NYU, Penn, and Columbia, I'd guess you have a better than even chance at getting into one or more of them.</p>
<p>Law schools generally don't consider Asian applicants to be members of an unrepresented minority.</p>
<p>Don't listen to people who tell you to pick your classes based on expected grades. Chose the classes that suit you best, and you'll get into a law school that meets your needs.</p>
<p>Would a rec from a partner from Wachtel help with admit to NYU?</p>
<p>It couldn't hurt I'm sure. The more impressive the better.</p>
<p>to disagree slightly with prdood123, don't name drop. If you've had the partner from Wachtel as your direct supervisor in a job or internship, that's awesome and it would be a great rec. But if you spent one afternoon shadowing him/her or you met at a cocktail party, you're more than wasting your time--you're making yourself look like a snob, and you're removing one more chance for someone who actually knows and likes you to write a reccommendation (since most schools cap the number of letters you can send).</p>
<p><em>agrees with stacy</em> I ASSUMED you knew him. But really just spoke to for 5 min. Bleh. I could have recs. from all types of people then.</p>
<p>You are both assuming wrong. Just asked a question. Son just graduated and started a paralegal job there, I am not banking on him mixing with the partners, but it might happen since he has to work on cases for them ... and if he does well I was just wondering since that firm gives alot of $$$ to NYU.</p>
<p>A recommendation for law school from a partner of a firm who was familiar with the work of a paralegal would be a good thing, regardless of which firm, and which law school(s).</p>
<p>Thanks Greybeard.... Let's see how long he stays...The amount of work is crazy,though he is learning so much in just a short time.</p>
<p>how does international student status factor into law school admission?</p>
<p>Do law schools appreciate 'diversity' among students? Like would someone who is from Noway, has worked in Australia & London, has lived in the USA and did her undergraduate degree in Political Science in University of Barcelona (3.2 gpa) have good chances? and I speak 5 languages too :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most people improve over the course of their undergraduate career
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know that I would say this. Certainly I found that most of the students I knew tended to regress towards the mean -- hardly surprising -- and that that was lower than a 3.6, particularly if he's in a difficult science major.</p>
<p>In any case, it's certainly way too premature to evaluate anything.</p>
<p>The numbers are your ticket to the dance. Whether your would-be date actually says yes or not is another matter. But you can't take him/her unless you can buy the tickets.</p>
<p>Your 3.6 might be a 2.4 when we check in with you next. It might be a 3.85. It's not sensible to worry about this yet. Get the highest grades you can in the courses you wish to take.</p>
<p>The LSDAS report that summarizes your transcript and provides your GPA <em>also</em> provides a breakdown of GPA and LSAT scores for your school. I don't recall exactly, but I think it gives something like the breakdowns for all prospective law students from your school within the last...5 years, maybe? Provided that there's been a minimum of...50 students? Like I said, I don't remember the numbers exactly, and these breakdowns probably won't be weighed too heavily, but they ARE there to contextualize the numbers. If you have a 4.0 and are in the top 1% of law school-bound students from your college, it will say so. Likewise if you have a 4.0 along with 60% of other law school-bound students.</p>
<p>To some degree, I think that an international student applying for an U.S. law degree (I'm talking about the full J.D. law degree, not the L.L.M. that most holders of foreign law degrees receive) will have to convince the law school to which that student is applying that there are good reasons for wanting an U.S. law degree -- kind of the answer to the typical personal statement prompts of "Why law school?" and "Why this particular law school?". In my experience at my law school and in years of interviewing students for summer and post-graduation jobs, I can't recall ever having interviewed an international student who was pursuing a J.D. and who was not a long time resident of the U.S. (including having gone to college here). The much more typical situation is where an international student receives a law degree in their home country and then comes to the U.S. for a one-year L.L.M. program that will enable them to sit for the bar exam here.</p>