Law School Applicants - A Parental Support Thread

Graduate School Law School
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<p>D is planning to apply to law school, and I need some support!</p>

<p>I should say that while she is pretty determined to apply, she is not 100 percent determined to actually go -- she realizes that she needs to do well on the LSAT and get admitted to a top law school for it to make sense. She is interested in international law, international patent law specifically and international trade law generally (she is majoring in international studies, and has both studied and worked in China), so her other thought is grad school, maybe in international affairs or maybe business school.</p>

<p>But she is taking the LSAT in October . . . Anyone else on this ride?</p>

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<p>Not there yet, but I’ll be following with interest as ds2 is now expressing an interest, and I know nothing about it.</p>

<p>You do know there’s a law school sub-forum, right?</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>OP, if she is interested in patent law, she will be expected to have a scientific/engineering type background.</p>

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<p>I can use all the support I can get. S1 is a senior, starting a LSAT prep course this week, scheduled to take the LSAT in October. He’s waiting to see how well he does on the LSAT. Not so determined to be a lawyer that he’ll go to a lower tier school, but he thinks he won’t do well enough to get into a tippy top school, either. He’s very interested in serving in the JAG Corps. He likes the possibility of travel and of the opportunity to work in a wide variety of legal areas.</p>

<p>We shall see. Nothing is set in stone yet, including this particular career track.</p>

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<p>I just went through this process with DD. She really was on top of things and did well with her admissions cycle. If you have a specific questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to help.</p>

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<p>I know this is a law school parental support thread, but as a lawyer, and a father, I would strongly advise most kids to think long and hard before pursuing the law school route. There is a VAST oversupply of lawyers out there. And that is not going to change.</p>

<p>There have been countless threads on CC about the poor job market for recent law graduates, even for kids from top schools. I strongly suggest you read them. I remember one from a partner at a big firm telling how many lawyers work at his firm for free, in the hopes of one day getting a job. Another thread told of a female law school graduate who was working as a stripper. There have also been posts about lawyers hiding the fact that they were law school graduates, so they could at least get a paralegal job.</p>

<p>You are talking about an investment of time of THREE years, and a gigantic investment of money as well. I urge you to compare the costs with the benefits. I have a son who received super high verbal SAT scores, and both his parents are lawyers, so you would think I would be thinking about law school for him, but I hope he runs in the other direction, and as fast as possible. At the least, make sure your kid enters this process with his or her eyes wide open. Not based on what they see on TV. </p>

<p>I base this advice not only on my experience, but on the experience of countless friends and co-workers as well. There are so many detriments to the legal profession that it would take a couple pages to outline them. But among them are endless hours, exploitation by large law firms, the almost total evaportation of job opportunities after you hit about 32 years old, monotonous work for the most part, and few opportunities for advancement.</p>

<p>Even if your kid gets into a top law school, and even if your kid then gets a job at a top law firm, the odds are great that in a couple years, he or she will be working in a much smaller firm, working right beside graduates from lesser schools.</p>

<p>Of course, there are exceptions, and it is true that some people are successful, but in general, for most people, I think my advice holds true. </p>

<p>I suspect you will pooh pooh this advice. I was given this same advice 30 years ago, and I pooh poohed it as well. I know you will probably not want to hear this advice, and it is none of my business, but if I saw your kid crossing the street and he or she was about ready to get hit by a taxicab, I am sure you would want me to at least try and push him or her out of the way to safety.</p>

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<p>Floridadad, I am a lawyer, my H is a lawyer, S1 is in law school and D took the LSAT and is most likely to apply during the next cycle. I did my best to dissuade them both - clearly I failed. I am a firm believer that there is value to a law degree, both if you intend to practice and if you don’t, but that no student should go into excessive debt to get the degree. Both of my kids (S2 chose a different route) thought long and hard, evaluating where they are/were likely to be admitted and what a JD from those schools would be worth either in the job market or on their resume. The points you raise are valid and should be considered by anyone considering law school, but I still believe the degree and the profession are good options for the right candidate.</p>

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<p>parentofpeople: How did your D study for the LSAT? Did she take a class?</p>

<p>floridadad55: Both D and I do take seriously the very substantial reasons not to go to law school. She is very aware of finances (she will graduate from a top-25 LAC with no debt–she turned down Amherst and Swarthmore because they would have required loans). I don’t really know about the law firm thing–D wants to work for the state department or the commerce department or some government department . . . I am sure those jobs are scarce, too, but maybe being focused on something that not every law school grad wants might help.</p>

<p>But I do hear you–and she is certainly looking at other options, too.</p>

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<p>MM - my D took the June LSAT and took a course, as did my S1. Both felt it was invaluable and worth the money because there is a method to taking the LSAT that neither felt they would have figured out simply by self-studying. They took different courses because of location and timing, but were both satisfied by their experiences. It’s also key to get the college transcript sent to LSAC and requests for recommendations submitted as early as possible since it takes awhile for it all to be processed. For the most part, except for law schools that offer ED options, admissions are on a rolling basis and the earlier applications are submitted, the better. Of course, a well-constructed application is key, and applying sooner should not trump a great application. Best of luck to those applying in the 2012-2013 cycle.</p>

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<p>S went through the process this year. His advice would be pretty much what runnersmom said: take a prep class, spend as much time as you can getting ready for LSAT, prepare you application ahead of time, apply as early in the cycle as possible. Then try to relax while waiting for results. :)</p>

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<p>MathildaMae, she took the PowerScore on line class and would highly recommend it. Not all on line companies offer classes that are taught as actual virtual classes with other students and interaction with instructors. That was very important to her, and the reason she selected PowerScore. The on line course was less expensive then the classroom location, she didn’t have to take time traveling, and if she missed a class or needed to review it, she could re-watch the session.</p>

<p>She took the October LSAT and spent the summer before the test studying. The part she needed the most help with was the logic games and I think that is the area where classes can help you the most. She also took advantage of all of the free Kaplan events, including taking the test live at various test centers. They also offered on line seminars with admissions people and that was very helpful too. </p>

<p>She looked at studying for the test and applying to LS as if it were her job for the summer and made it a priority. I know that made a difference. </p>

<p>You have gotten good advice from the posters above. Apply as early as possible and put the proper time into the application to make it great.</p>

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<p>Wasn’t sure of the policy regarding naming specific programs, but my D also took the Powerscore course, although she did the in-person classes. It was invaluable for the Logic Games sections, as parentofpeople pointed out. My S1 took Kaplan, because he decided to take the LSAT 6 weeks before the test and it was the only course that worked with his work schedule. Both my kids worked after graduating from college. My S1 started a joint law/MUP program 2 years after graduating (will graduate with a JD and MUP this sproing), and my D, if she decides on law school, will also start after 2 years of working. Both came to the decision to apply to law school as a result of their work experiences.</p>

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<p>I’m another lawyer in a senior position for a Fortune 500, whose kid went to law school despite my warnings (and just took the bar this week). I agree with FloridaDad 100%.</p>

<p>I’ve decided that there’s no point in repeating that there are very few jobs unless you go to the top 5 schools or are at the top of your class, because no one believes us. There also aren’t many nonlegal jobs looking for grads with a J.D. Most of the students who pursue law school are used to being academically successful and driven. They believe that they will be the exception, and they are all confident that they will be at the top of their class. Some of them will have scholarships that seem to make the cost of law school manageable (although they will discover that keeping law school scholarships is a lot harder than keeping undergraduate scholarships). Many of them will argue that law school offers opportunities that liberal arts degrees don’t, so they have nothing to lose other than three years’ of opportunity cost starting a career in another field. </p>

<p>Many of them will rely on law school employment statistics, ignoring the fact that reporting of employment stats has been under attack as being highly inaccurate. Schools report students as having “legal employment” who are stuck doing discovery for temp services or working for law schools’ admissions offices. My kid’s top regional law school went from 80%+ employment to 55% employment over three years, reflecting its commitment to more accurate reporting. Obviously, the law students who saw the statistics change so drastically were in shock about their future prospects.</p>

<p>If counting on networking or parental firms, something to consider is that every practicing lawyer is being asked these days about employment opportunities for relatives’ kids, clients’ kids, neighbors’ kids, etc. There is only so much that nepotism and connections can do too. </p>

<p>There have been other postings about the fact that low-paying government, military and public interest jobs are now incredibly hard to get too, and that biglaw life is horrible (and more often than not the associates eventually end up dumped into the marketplace instead of making partner). </p>

<p>My kid had good job offers from all of his college internships. He says that he went from being very employable without undergraduate debt to being an unemployable J.D. with $100,000 in debt. He clerked for a company that uses desperate law students hoping for a job offer as nearly free paralegals. He’s job hunting across the country. Please PM me if any of you have job leads.</p>

<p>I never expected to be so worried about my kid’s future at this point in life. Trust me, it’s a lot worse than worrying about LSAT scores or law school admissions.
Sorry to be so discouraging but I’m disheartened. </p>

<p>I suggest that part of the law school application process should be parental planning for a worst case scenario of debt + unemployability or underemployment + stress, after graduation.</p>

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<p>I’m going to diverge from the popular opinion here and say that an LSAT prep course isn’t always necessary and that many kids are able to prep themselves and achieve excellent results. My D was one of them. Many of her friends and current colleagues did the same. She bought the Powerscore ‘bibles’ and worked on them for about six weeks, along with doing several timed past tests. My advice would be for the student to take a diagnostic and see how they do, before automatically assuming that they need to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars in organized prep courses.</p>

<p>mathildamae, I will echo the comment by boysx3 that anyone who is interested in patent law is going to be expected to have an engineering or hard science background. An undergrad in international studies is not likely to make that path a possibility.</p>

<p>neonzeus, I’m sorry to hear about your son’s situation. Similar stories are common but, you’re right, most parents and kids don’t want to hear the truth of the situation. These warnings have been out there for several years, certainly prior to when my D applied, and she’s just finishing up a Federal clerkship, so it’s been 5 years ago. My D is fortunate to have an excellent job lined up but the situation here in Canada is nowhere near as dire as it is in the U.S. The reality is that there are far too many law schools in the U.S. and far too many kids applying. I hope your son’s search is successful.</p>

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<p>Thanks Always. Fortunately this kid’s siblings are pursuing degrees in the health field, and their schools have had 100% employment as of graduation. I don’t think I could go through this again…</p>

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<p>As the parent of a soon-to-be 2L, I am of course anxious about my daughter’s eventual prospects. Threads like this one tie me in knots, frankly. At the moment, my d’s prospects seem decent. She was very cautious about taking on law school debt and chose a T14 school where she’d have to borrow only about $30k total, instead of $200K at a top 3 school. She had a strong 1L year and has an offer for a paid SA position next year at a firm in the city where she wants to live. She needs a law degree to get where she wants to go, so it shouldn’t be an impediment (or irrelevancy) in establishing her career. Still, all of us are afraid to relax about her future. </p>

<p>Regarding actually being a law student: my d points out the value of work experience, even more for the coping strategies it provides in succeeding as a 1L than for the small boost it might give in admissions. She and her friends who worked for a few years note a difference in prioritizing skills and workload management among 1Ls who worked after college. Not saying that students who enter law school directly after college can’t do these things well, just that students with WE seem at an advantage in those areas.</p>

<p>One nice thing about law school admissions is that there’s not a lot of guesswork involved. It really is true that LSAT and GPA are more important than other factors, and that sites such as law school predictor and law school numbers give you a fair idea of where you’re likely to be accepted.</p>

<p>Wishing all of us law school parents, potential and otherwise, inner peace.</p>

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<p>If you’re going to take the LSAT, definitely take a review course. If you’re not sure which one, speak to current first year students to see what they recommend.
Regarding law school in general, think long and hard about applying. And only go to law school if you want to practice law; even 30 years ago when I went to law school the canard that “you can do anything with a law degree” was trotted out. The truth? You can’t-you can practice law.
And to follow up on the warnings of Florida and Neon-I’ve mostly been in practice with various govt agencies. I currently work for an agency that has almost 300 lawyer positions; we have no vacancies. We currently have four law clerks; in the past, they were 2nd or 3rd year students. Our current four are all law school grads who have passed the bar. They are also unpaid.
There are law jobs available; they are few and hard to find, however. So if you’re going to law school, do it with eyes wide open.</p>

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<p>I thought that it might also be useful to add that I know many, many attorneys with between 3 and 30 years of legal experience who are now unemployed, employed in positions paying far less than what they used to make, or stuck in awful jobs that in a better economy, they would have left behind for greener pastures. </p>

<p>Even for newly minted attorneys who do manage to find those elusive first year associate positions in law firms or other jobs, layoffs, pay cuts, and pay freezes are rampant once your foot is in the door. Unfortunately, if you are one of the unlucky attorneys to end up boxing up your belongings and heading out the office door, you are often accompanied by dozens of colleagues who will all be competing with you for the same few jobs that may be out there. I hear often that recruiters are overwhelmed with resumes from both stellar and underwhelming attorneys, all of whom are out of work or working in jobs that just don’t pay as well or require as much responsibility as jobs they once held. </p>

<p>Even when an attorney is willing to take a job as a more junior attorney, a contracts manager, a paralegal, or even a receptionist, often employers don’t want them. Many employers feel that even if offered a job, these attorneys would jump ship the minute that a better opportunity presented itself (which is likely true). In addition, I’ve seen situations time and again where a more junior (in terms of years of experience) attorney doesn’t want a more senior attorney working for them because they feel threatened and don’t want to put their own job at risk. In addition, for attorneys who have lost jobs, often their resumes look a bit like swiss cheese with a couple of years at a job here followed by a couple of years at a job there. Since law firms/companies receive hundreds of resumes for each position, they simply cherry pick the resumes, and instead of inquiring about someone’s scattered, but otherwise solid, experience, they simply go with the person with the more consistent resume. </p>

<p>Though this problem is not unique problem to the legal market, it is a very serious issue for attorneys who have families, mortgages, car payments, and fixed financial obligations that they undertook in fatter times. Those mortgage payments on the house in Chappaqua that you purchased in flush times don’t get lower just because you lost that Biglaw job . . .</p>

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<p>On the other hand, if you grew up in, say, Iowa, graduate from the University of Iowa, graduate from the University of Iowa College of Law, and aren’t interested in a big law firm in Des Moines or on the east coast, there are job openings in family law in small towns in the vast midwest. Several generations of family members have gone that route with great satisfaction. Including one who is only a few years out of law school, and very, very happy in a tiny office in a small midwestern town. No nepotism involved in the job opening, nobody else in the family lives there.</p>

<p>Not arguing about the difficulties of law as a profession as many have described, just pointing out that there are other routes besides large, lucrative, coastal law firms.</p>

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<p>East Coast Crazy: I’m not on a coast or in a major city (not all big companies are located in NY, Chicago or L.A., of course) and my kid did the state university + state law school route. Originally I had believed that there could be opportunities in smaller cities, smaller companies, or even in small firms in towns. I’ve learned that this is a myth too. There are numerous reasons why these opportunities no longer exist, but it keeps coming back to the glut of lawyers, competition, downsizing and the economy. </p>

<p>I really, really wish you were right, but I just don’t see it. If there are jobs outside of the major cities, they sure aren’t advertised in newspapers, Monster, bar association boards, bar journals, law school placement offices, or legal job websites. And for the few jobs for new lawyers that are advertised, there are numerous candidates.</p>