Leadership Training and Commitment

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
1

<p>For those who might be concerned that there isn't adequate preparation at USMMA to serve in the Navy.</p>

<p>The Navy has an extensive Naval Science program at KP that all Midshipmen must complete. As a matter of fact, KP is the only Academy that still marches to Colors EVERY morning. </p>

<p>Go talk to Admirals Cosgriff, Buzby and Greene and ask them about the preparation they got at Kings Point.</p>

<p>US</a> Navy Biographies - VICE ADMIRAL KEVIN J. COSGRIFF</p>

<p>US</a> Navy Biographies - REAR ADMIRAL MARK H. BUZBY</p>

<p>US</a> Navy Biographies - REAR ADMIRAL PHILIP H. GREENE, JR.</p>

<p>Then go talk to Joe Stewart, USNA Class of 1964 and ask the former Deputy Chief of Staff of the Marine Corps what he thinks. </p>

<p>United</a> States Merchant Marine Academy</p>

<p>And, in terms of commitment:</p>

<p>Then go talk to the wife and kids of the 1st Lt. in the 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division, who still gets to come home and see them every day because Aaron Seesan KP Class of 2001 volunteered to go to Iraq in his place.</p>

<p>Wednesday, May 25 2005 @ 08:00 AM EDT</p>

<p>Seattle Post Intelligencer -- In a January meeting at Fort Lewis, a month after the deadliest attack upon Stryker Brigade soldiers in Iraq claimed six of them in a suicide bombing, 24-year-old 1st Lt. Aaron Seesan stood up and volunteered to help replace the dead.</p>

<p>Seesan reasoned that the only other person of his rank who might go had a wife and kids, Seesan's mother recalled last night. Also, his going provided a chance to rejoin a unit he belonged to until shortly before it was deployed to Iraq last October.</p>

<p>"I had an opportunity to visit Aaron at Fort Lewis in January before he left for Iraq," his mother, Chiquita, said from the family's home in Massillon, Ohio, yesterday. "I think Aaron tried to prepare me."</p>

<p>Her son was adamant that they not dwell on packing his belongings but enjoy their time together, take in such sites as the Seattle Art Museum and just talk. </p>

<p>During a drive to see the Hoh rain forest, "we talked about his last will and testament, and he wanted my input. It was a very casual conversation. He gave me a copy before I left to go home. I put it in the cupboard here and decided I was never going to look at it again," the soldier's mother said.</p>

<p>Last Sunday, she retrieved it. An Army chaplain arrived at the family's home to tell her and her husband, Thomas, that their son was among the three Stryker soldiers killed in Iraq early Sunday. "Those who were with him recall his last words: 'Take charge, Sergeant Arnold, and take care of the others.'"</p>

2

<p>So, LFWB dad, are you saying that should a candidate who plans to be a Naval Officer receive appointments to both USNA and USMMA, that you would recommend that they attend USMMA vice USNA?</p>

3

<p>USNA69, you have given many prospective SA candidates valuable advise and corrected many misconcpetions throughout your posts. But please, Please, PLEASE, GIVE IT A REST!!!</p>

<p>We've already had two threads suspended from this topic. If I were you two, I would stop now before you're both banned. </p>

<p>And I'm spent...</p>

4

<p>Gentlemen,</p>

<p>Good afternoon and thank you for your posts about these two great academies and how they shape the leaders of tomorrow.</p>

<p>I've been around the military environment for going on seven years now, and I have come in contact with many enlisted men and women, and just as many officers. I have learned a lot from all of them and have found that it is not what institutions they came from -- but the type of people they are. </p>

<p>If one wants to be an Officer in the United States Military, then they should take any opportunity that comes their way -- and God bless them for doing so. I applaud my fellows who answer the call to serve. I respect those that have come before me to serve.</p>

<p>One must make a personal decision when choosing which path to take that will ultimately forge them into a confident Officer of service. I'm not saying anything that anyone doesn't know already -- but just wanted to remind everyone that there are many different choices -- no one of them being nobler than the other. The ends justify the means.</p>

<p>I would recommend that any young person seeking to serve their country should find where they can be the most efficient in their service. A West Pointer's talents will not be the same as a CGA graduate's talents. But both academies produce outstanding officers and leaders. Leadership is universal.</p>

<p>A USMMA graduate's talents will be greatly different than that of a USNA graduate. But both will be great leaders. Both will be amazingly successful. Is one any better than the other at being a Naval Officer? It depends upon the individual. As a USMMA junior, I may be able to navigate a ship more efficiently than a USNA junior, but my counterpart would probably understand USN Structure and Organization better than myself -- having been exposed to that everyday of his or her life. Are either of us better leaders than the other? Depends on our personal abilities as a leader.</p>

<p>As to the candidate choosing USNA or USMMA: Which would be the best fit for you and your specific abilities as a leader?</p>

<p>As a future USMMA Graduate, I am looking forward to serving my country -- in any way that I will be of most benefit to her.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
So, LFWB dad, are you saying that should a candidate who plans to be a Naval Officer receive appointments to both USNA and USMMA, that you would recommend that they attend USMMA vice USNA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For certain types of candidates I certainly would. Here are a few types of people I would make this recommendation to:</p>

<p>Future Naval Aviators: For those who think they want to be pilots or NFO's Kings Point is far and above one of the best places to attend. The reason for this is the selection percentage of those who apply for aviation to those who are selected. Kings Point in the past several years has had >90% selection for those qualified medically. My year it was 100% and several other years it has been as well. </p>

<p>Those who aren't entirely sure they want to go on active duty, or those who are undecided as to which service they would like to go: Simply put KP has the widest range of options at graduation from all of the academies. Active duty in any of the services, NOAA, Air National Guard, Army National Guard, or reserves in any of the services.</p>

<p>Those who would like to go active duty in something like intel or supply: very difficult to get out of USNA; however, no such restrictions on those graduating from KP. </p>

<p>Those who would like to select their first assignment without the pressures of "service selection." Unlike at USNA there is no service selection night for firsties, so if your grades aren't that great you don't have to worry about getting stuck on the USS Never in Port.</p>

<p>Good athletes who might not get a chance to play at USNA (or those who play a sport other than football and would like to be competitive ;) j/k): Kings Point is smaller and therefore more people have the opportunity to play sports. Many women at KP will play 2 or 3 varsity level sports. Kings Point soccer has been very competitive in the last few years.</p>

<p>Now there are those who I would not make this recommendation to:</p>

<p>Future SpecWar: USMMA has some graduates who have gone on to do well in the SEAL community; however, they are few and far between and KP doesn't have the people at school like USNA does when it comes to this field.</p>

<p>Future Medical Officers: Although I am one who has gone this path Kings Point is not the easiest route. Is it possible, yes; however, going to USNA would be an easier path as they have the science courses needed for prep.</p>

<p>Those who want a more liberal arts education: Now, I'm not calling USNA a liberal arts school; however, at Kings Point you will either graduate with a marine engineering of marine transportation degree. No poly sci degrees at KP.</p>

<p>Those to whom school name matters: To some people the name on their diploma means more than anything. Kings Point does not have the same name recognition as Naval Academy and probably never will.</p>

<p>I'm sure there are a few more subsets of people that I could break out. I'm debating back and forth about USMC people. At Kings Point you will definately get a USMC billet, I think there is a small fraction of people at USNA who want USMC but don't get it due to service selection. KP also has a strong Marine Corps option program; however, I'm not sure how it stacks up to the one at USNA.</p>

<p>Overall whichever Academy one chooses they will get a great education and will be given the guidance and chance to become a great leader. What one does with that is more important than what words are written on a piece of paper hanging on a wall.</p>

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<p>Agree</p>

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<p>Agree. All USNA are required, if physically capable, with very very few exceptions, to go unrestricted line. </p>

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<p>Service selection is not a pressure, it is a priviledge. Pretty sure USNA is the only acquisition source where an officer may pick his exact ship and billet on it.<br>
Also, relatively certain that USNA gets first choice of everything available and the remaining acquisition sources get what is left. So, you are not only more likely to get USS Never Sail, you will apparently have no choice in the matter.</p>

<p>


Are they required to do sea year and, if so, how could riding around on a container ship for a year be considered pertinent to their education?</p>

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<p>
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Are they required to do sea year and, if so, how could riding around on a container ship for a year be considered pertinent to their education?

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</p>

<p>Yes, everybody does the sea year. It is pertinent as the Marine Corps wants well rounded officers. I think you would be surprised at what happens while at sea. Most midshipmen when they return from sea have truly changed a bit. I know I did. My experiences spending time in West Africa and Asia opened my eyes to things I could have only imagined previously.</p>

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<p>Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Sure it makes them more well rounded but at the expense of a year where they could be doing more things related to their service selection. </p>

<p>I spent over 12 years at sea. Nothing would surprise me.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Overall whichever Academy one chooses they will get a great education and will be given the guidance and chance to become a great leader. What one does with that is more important than what words are written on a piece of paper hanging on a wall.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bully for you sir.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are they required to do sea year and, if so, how could riding around on a container ship for a year be considered pertinent to their education?

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</p>

<p>First, I applaud your commitment to discussion here on the boards.</p>

<p>All midshipmen, regardless of service selection at the USMMA, are required to do the Sea Year. You ask a valid question -- what exactly would a future Marine Corps officer learn at sea that would benefit him or her?</p>

<p>At first, it may not be apparent what a Marine Corps officer could benefit from by sailing on a ship -- be it container, roll on roll off, tanker, passenger carrier, etc. </p>

<p>No. You aren't learning the Marine Corps leader's skill set of extreme physical fitness, profession in arms, or leading trained combat machines. Oo-rah.</p>

<p>But you learn other leadership traits that make you a better leader -- no matter where you go in life. Traits like humility immediately come to mind. As a cadet on board a ship, you are given many humble jobs that will break you down as an individual and build you up again. Humanity. Tact. Resourcefulness. My point is this: It's a real world experience in a real world setting -- not just a classroom or a closed encampment. We get to see the world as the world is. I have seen things that have made me so very grateful that I live in the good ol' U S of A. Children begging in the streets of Ecuador and Peru. People wearing masks to avoid sickness and pollution in Kao`Hsiung , T'aiwan.</p>

<p>This sea year has made me a better leader, there is no doubt in my mind. I sailed as a cadet carrying goods from California and Hawaii to the Far East. I sailed as a cadet in Military Sealift Command (one of the Navy's five missions) refueling naval ships alongside, only some 200 feet away from each other. I sailed as a cadet on a hospital ship participating in a humanitarian mission where I feel I learned the most as a future officer. I sailed as a cadet carrying fuel to naval depots around the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. Sea year is a unique experience that any future officer can use -- they need only apply themselves. It is another tool that we use to make ourselves better leaders. Sea year is the crucible of our education as USMMA Graduates.</p>

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<p>Also, where the Marine Ops candidates are concerned they will have an opportunity to spend "quality time " at the platoon leadership school/ocs
at Quantico, where they will have plenty of time to do the ooh-rah stuff before heading off to the basic school. If my understanding is correct USNA graduates get to "direct commission" into the Corps and bypass this step. A testimony to their fine program. That being said I believe the first sea year period has helped my "Devil Pup" immensely.</p>

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<p>jamz, thanks for the input. I don't think I agree with you completely but you do make valid comments. May I ask you the same question, with a slight rephrasing, which I asked LFWB dad and kp2001 answered on his own. Under what conditions would you recommend a candidate attend USMMA who had been accepted at both USNA and USMMA?</p>

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<p>USNA69</p>

<p>I'm just interested in why you care? So you don't like KP, so be it. We get it! Big time! Is there a purpose to this?</p>

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<p>Response: A young person who has been accepted to both USNA and USMMA will be able to respond to the question "So, where did you go to school?" with pride -- no matter which academy they choose. How outstanding it is for that individual to have a choice. They have already ascended to the upper echelon of education by being accepted to either academy.</p>

<p>Again, the conditions are dependant on the individual's talents and interests. Do you know a lot about the maritime trade? Do you want to? Do you want a school with a reputation, or does that matter to you? Do you want a more technical degree, or a humanities degree? Do you mind going to school eleven months out of the year? Do you want a whole year at sea (4 months out, 4 months back, 8 months out), or for it to be split up into training during the summer months? There are so many conditions that it's simply too hard to list them all here. An individual making this "tough" choice -- a choice that, in my opinion, is a win-win situation -- need only make a list of pros and cons for both. Go with whichever one suits you best – only the individuals themselves can answer the question “Which academy is best for me?”</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So, LFWB dad, are you saying that should a candidate who plans to be a Naval Officer receive appointments to both USNA and USMMA, that you would recommend that they attend USMMA vice USNA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What I am saying is that an individual should look at the entire breadth of what they want out of college and a career and make the choice that is right for them. For some people it will be USNA, for some people it will be USMMA for some people it will be NROTC for some people it will be OCS. </p>

<p>This is what I have been saying all along. USNA might be right; USMMA might be right. It all depends, there is no one right answer expect for the individual.</p>

<p>A lot of kids don't know about USMMA, and because it is a commissioning source for the the Navy it is wholly appropriate that a Member of Congress suggest that an applicant who wishes to serve as an Officer in the Navy consider it as an option. </p>

<p>I was just trying to point out that Kings Point graduates are both well prepared and committed to serving thier country. That's all. </p>

<p>You might not think so, and that's OK. You are a patriot who served your country well and I will defend to my death your right to say and believe whatever you want.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So, LFWB dad, are you saying that should a candidate who plans to be a Naval Officer receive appointments to both USNA and USMMA, that you would recommend that they attend USMMA vice USNA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here is one example of why someone with appontments to both might choose USMMA over USNA. </p>

<p>You are a good, but not great, high school wreslter, Captain of your team; but have a 1420 SAT, a 3.85 GPA; you're and Eagle Scout; you're active in your Church. The whole nine yards. You are not recruited to wrestle at Navy, (Navy has three State Champions at every weight class), but you know you can wrestle Varsity at KP and contribute at the Division III level. </p>

<p>You might decide to go to USMMA because of the overall experience you will get will be better for you and you will be a newly minted Ensign at graduation just like your counterparts at USNA.</p>

<p>And if you are like the Captain of the 2005/2006 wrestling team at KP you will go to BUDS and make it through while the two guys from Navy who whipped up on you at the All Academy tournament each year will ring the bell. (True story)</p>

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<p>Oops, forgot an important part of the question. The individual wishes to be a Naval Officer. Of course you’re correct in the remainder of your statement.</p>

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<p>I think I am a 20 shades of gray person in a black and white discussion. To me, ‘not best’ does not mean ‘totally wrong’. Of course, USMMA is a great school and provides outstanding officers. I just think that when a person who wants to be a Naval Officer, the BEST place to be, with maybe one or two exceptions, is USNA. </p>

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<p>I would say that anyone who makes a life decision based on a very short term gain is not making the best decision.</p>

<p>Both my son and I took pride in being a varsity athlete in a much larger pool. The larger it is, the more accomplishment it is to make varsity.</p>

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<p>On the two previous threads, we had a highly qualified young woman who has wanted to attend USNA from the age of 10 but due to a set of circumstances is unable to obtain a nomination from her MOC this year. However, her MOC offered her a USMMA nomination.</p>

<p>My counsel to her since the early fall has been to stay the course, that there are methods for USNA to obtain nominations, and that there is always ROTC and reapplication.</p>

<p>She was receiving, in my opinion, some very bad advice. It ranged from that if one wanted to go active duty military, USMMA was the best place, bar none, to obtain a commission to not to go ROTC with the intent of reapplying to USNA.</p>

<p>As an aside, I am irritated at the system in that people who want to serve their country somehow get acquainted with USMMA via their MOC and end up lured by the big bucks into the private sector.</p>

<p>If you read the previous threads, on several occasions I stated that USMMA is a great institution and provides great employees for the maritime industry. However, those threads became convoluted by one or two people who continued to polarize and distort the points which I was attempting to make. This is a much better discussion. I simply feel that the best place to become a Naval Officer, with very few exceptions, if given the opportunity, is USNA. I don’t have the last couple of years data, but if history proves correct, there are approximately 125 midshipmen who were accepted at both USNA and USMMA. All but two are three are at USNA. There is a reason.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Of course, USMMA is a great school and provides outstanding officers.

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</p>

<p>Thank you. I may be wrong, but I think that is the first time you have said that in this entire discussion.</p>

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[quote]
Both my son and I took pride in being a varsity athlete in a much larger pool. The larger it is, the more accomplishment it is to make varsity.

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</p>

<p>Congratualtions! That is certainly one perspective. </p>

<p>My best friend and I both played college football (we are both similarly talented athletes), he played at D-I Michigan, I played at D-II (at the time, now its D-III) University of Puget Sound. We are both a little envious of each other's experiences. I started for three years and had a blast, my friend was on the scout squad and on the kickoff return team his senior year and lettered that year. He once told me that I played more plays in one quarter than he did his entire college career. I said, yeah, but you played in front of more people in one play than I did my entire college career! (All that being said, neither of us would have changed places.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, I am very irritated that two young people with which I am acquainted, both went to USMMA intent on fulfilling their life time dreams of being Naval Officers. They both are being lured by the big bucks of the private sector.

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</p>

<p>I think your gripe ought to be with the two young people not with the school. If their dream to be Naval Officers was that strong, it won't change just because they see other opportunities. That having been said, people and their perspectives change with the experiences they get. </p>

<p>Finally, all things being equal, I'll agree with you, choose USNA over USMMA. But all things aren't always equal.</p>

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<p>I think somehow, as is the case in many of these forums, ‘my’ statements turn out to be an unproductive inaccurate interpretation by another member with an altogether different motive. The following statements indicate my feelings about USMMA. I think the mods inadvertently deleted one of my posts to which I was referring in the last quote.</p>

<p>
[Quote]
12/23 And OBTW, some of the finest officers with whom I have served, graduated from KP.</p>

<p>12/25 I am not taking issue with USMMA as a great producer of maritime officers.</p>

<p>12/31 For those who attended in order to get a job in the merchant marine, I have absolutely no problems. Like I said earlier, they are getting a great education at a great institution

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<p>My argument and intent throughout the entire threads can be summarized by the following statement:</p>

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12/31-If one wants to go in the CG, attend the CGA. If they want to be a merchant mariner, attend the USMMA. If they want to be a Naval Officer, attend the Naval Academy

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</p>

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<p>She asked if she would get the same leadership training at USMMA that she would at USNA.</p>

<p>Why do you keep changing her original question to suit your argument?</p>

<p>Why do you keep insisting that she will not get the same (or better) leadership training at KP that she will in Annapolis, when you have on countless occasions praised the USN officers coming out of KP? Are they somehow lacking in leadership but you are overlooking that fault?</p>

<p>What leadership training is a junior USN officer not getting at KP that they are getting at Annapolis?</p>

<p>Notwithstanding the training in "selling out," "clipboard holding," "counting freight," and "riding around on a container ship." :rolleyes:</p>