Leadership Training and Commitment

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
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<p>K314's history lesson got me to thinking, perhaps the ultimate tribute to, and reminder of the great leadership preparation provided by the merchant marine towards becoming a US Naval Officer is the fact that the Navy deemed it appropriate to bury a merchant mariner beneath the chapel at the US Naval Academy.</p>

<p>Lest anyone forget, John Paul Jones trained as and was a merchant mariner before he became the father of the US Navy.</p>

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<p>Your percentages above are meaningless. The base for this table is ALL graduates. The percentages include only those Navy grads who are promoted to LCDR. It does not take into account those not commissioned and those commisioned into other services and the USMC.</p>

<p>The following is a post by a member on CC last spring and goes along with everything I have ever heard from both the Academy and my personal experiences. My class was a little over 60%. There have been several periods where there was an excess of officers which was taken care of by reducing promotion percentages. The LCDR percentages from the above table are extremely low so perhaps this was one of those periods. I honestly don't remember.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
“The Effect of a Military Family Background on Midshipman Performance at USNA and USNA Graduate Performance in the Fleet”

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I really had trouble understanding the numbers presented by this report. On second look, I realized that it was the data for the Classes of 1980-1985, not those making LCDR in 1980-1985. The Iron Curtain, which I have already in this thread mentioned the effects of, fell in 1989. The Classes of 1980-1985 were in zone for LCDR from 1989-1995. The Navy was forced to downsize drastically during this period. This was the era of the 15yr retirements and 'buyouts'. Morale was abysmal. Retention was horrible. Fundings were cut for all operations. It may have provided a good data base for military background vs civilian performance. Actually, it probably did since military dependents realize, more than others, that everything is cyclical, to just hang around, everything will eventually return to normal. However, for overall USNA grad retention, it is again worthless.</p>

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<p>"haha" is a poor substitute for :D or even :p </p>

<p>;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Luigi, no smileys intended.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>None needed. :cool:</p>

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<p>Hey, you guys are awful sensitive. Nothing derogatory intended at all. You yourself have stated several times that sea billets are difficult to obtain. So why would it be so awful to take 6 year to obtain 5 years of required service? I would see that as preferable to ‘selling out’ to the shore side.</p>

<p>It just seemed to me that the MARAD reporting requirements below alluded to allowing six years to complete the requirements:</p>

<p>
[quote]

Report Compliance to MARAD:
Report to MARAD annually concerning
your compliance with the foregoing maritime
service obligations, as set forth in the next
paragraph.
You are required to report in each year following
your year of graduation to inform
MARAD about your compliance with your service
obligations. Regardless of the date of
your graduation, each graduate must submit
a service obligation report from between January
1 and March 1, starting the first January
1 after graduation and for at least an additional
six (6) consecutive years thereafter.
Graduates are required to file reports through
to the last report that demonstrates that all
obligations have been satisfied. If a graduate
completes the service obligations within the
six years following graduation, each graduate
should only have to file a total of seven (7)
reports in order to give information on all six
(6) years of service obligations.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Hey, you guys are awful sensitive. Nothing derogatory intended at all. You yourself have stated several times that sea billets are difficult to obtain. So why would it be so awful to take 6 year to obtain 5 years of required service? I would see that as preferable to ‘selling out’ to the shore side.</p>

<p>It just seemed to me that the MARAD reporting requirements below alluded to allowing six years to complete the requirements:

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not sensitive, just wanted to point out misinformation (the bane of everyone's existence here). The requirements for going to sea are a little tricky. One is not required to sail for a total of 365 days x 5yrs. The requirement for a "good year" is for a person to sail the number of days equivalent to the average number of days sailed by others.</p>

<p>So basically if jobs are tough to come by the requirement may only be to sail 90 days. If jobs are plentiful then one might need to come closer to the 180 days for a half year. There is no way to really tell what the number will be each year, but I would suspect that if someone sails around half the year they would be fine. </p>

<p>I believe the reason for requiring six years of reporting is to cover the reserve commitment. The reason one has to submit 7 reports is because the reports are from DEC to DEC and the first one needs to be turned in the first december after graduation, only covering six months.</p>

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<p>

Since the reporting is after the fact, and apparently they don't know what is sufficient until the year end averages are toted, what happens to those who don't meet the resulting minimums?</p>

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<p>Those who don't meet the resulting minimums could be held in breach of their contract and therefore have any number of things happen to them to include recall to active duty or be required to pay for their tuition. (I think the likelihood of that happening would be low though as long as someone showed a good faith effort)</p>

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<p>I think if I was a commanding officer and received someone who was being sent to active duty as a punishment for breach of contract, I would refuse him. And I doubt if I would be the only one of like persuasion.</p>

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<p>So, what about those E-5's who bilge from the Naval Academy during their 2nd and 1st Class years? Who get's those guys? Would you take them?</p>

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<p>Nope Deep dark secret: To the fleet this is a huge problem. Many COs do refuse them. And some of them, from second handed information, someone please confirm, are getting out of their commitments.</p>

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<p>the heart. It is that desire to serve, to put self above the rest.</p>

<p>Which is not something that can be taught. Nor can character.
Sure, you can have 1,000 times the ethics classes, but it all boils down to what that one person chooses to do... when nobody else is looking, when nobody else is ever going to know.That is not a matter of training. It is a matter of selfless choice. It is a matter of a fertile heart and capable mind discerning right-from-wrong and following that harder, narrower path.</p>

<p>LFWBdad, you have always been a wonderful resource and encouraging far beyond what you realize. I have always listened intently to your counsel, and have been reassured by it.</p>

<p>USNA69, you too are a font of wisdom, although it is often a prickly path to pick out the salient bits, and discard the obvious bias. I don't mind your being passionate about your cause, but being myopic and denigrating other paths detracts from some really useful information you've been able to provide to prospective candidates.</p>

<p>My son and I have visited Quantico a number of times, as we have friends there. Son was introduced to some of the best leaders I have seen -- mission first, competence, respect, openness. Without fail, they have come from USNA, from ROTC, up through the ranks, and (surprising perhaps only to you USNA69) from USMMA. There was NO PREPONDERANCE of better leadership of one vs the other based on where they attended college. In fact, NO CO cared WHERE you went at all... it was 'can you do this job?'. </p>

<p>I am proud of all of these kids at all of the academies. They are taking on challenges that dwarf the commitments and accomplishments of kids are 'regular' colleges. They, every ONE of them, have committed to serve this nation (hence the term Service Academy).</p>

<p>Even the ones who try, and fail... those guys are the ones have attempted more that their typical college counterparts. Or maybe they had a romanticized view of what things would be like, and found the actual reality not to their liking. Bravo to them for making the hard decision to remove themselves.. better now than in a tense situation where lives are at stake.</p>

<p>(Good Lord. I can't believe I've done this.
I have precious little time as it is; I'm getting dirty and the pig is enjoying it. Sheesh)</p>

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<p>Zonker,</p>

<p>Eloquent (as always) and I echo your words and thoughts about all of these brave young people who dare to do what most wouldn't consider. It (going to a service academy and/or joining the military) wouldn't be my choice, but it is my son's and for that reason I lent support where I could to see him live his dream, as I am sure most of us have done for our children.</p>

<p>I have (mostly) kept silent on the "less than savory" comments that have flown on this and other threads on this forum and frankly, am sick and tired of the bickering. </p>

<p>I and many others that frequent this site, do so for the information, knowledge and support of others. Some are knowledgable, some seeking knowledge, but others are irritants. I know I can only speak for myself, but I know I would appreciate alot less irritation.</p>

<p>I know this is America and "free speech" is guarded, but I feel like I am paying a high price for it.</p>

<p>Maybe it's just my personality, but I couldn't keep silent for one more minute.</p>

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<p>There has been much banter back and forth about which institution gives the best leadership training. After over 30 years of working with college students from many different situations, it is apparent to my husband and myself THAT THE BEST INSTITUTION FOR DEVELOPING LEADERSHIP IS CALLED PARENTHOOD. We have had contact with students from 4 of the 5 federal academies, and many other colleges including ROTC students. The schools may supplement for four years, but the true values of leadership have ALREADY been instilled in the daily training for 18 years before they showed up at the college. When we get to know a student, we can tell you what the parents are like, and what values they have worked hard to instill in their son or daughter. The leadership seeds are already instilled. The depth of training and the quality of learning that goes on at home is priceless, and will affect the whole future of the student.</p>

<p>Please, never underestimate the value of all your time, effort, teaching, and love in developing the leaders and high integrity people of the future.</p>

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<p>Sorry for the typo in the title of my last comment. My Ivy League education didn't teach me how to type. More to the point, I should learn to proof read.</p>

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<p>Excellent comments by Zonker, KPmom, Kathy, and LFWB....I agree with you 100%. I wish I were as articulate as some of you, but since I know my feelings and sentiments will eventually be penned I'll just wait and agree so kudos to you four!</p>

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<p>As an addition to my last history lesson, I will use a couple of quotes out of one of my books "The Military Experience in the Age of Reason" (Duffy) purely for additional historical knowledge, but mainly to get some reactions... ;)</p>

<p>"The English and Hessian soldiery had to concede that the sailors of the transports and warships were masters of their trade. Such was not always the case among the French, for the officers of Rochambeau's expeditionary force (1780) were appalled by the professional ignorance of their naval opposite numbers, who seemed to know very little about navigation, basic geography or how to manage their ships"</p>

<p><em>cough</em></p>

<p>On the same note however, and made immediately before the previous statement...</p>

<p>"Altogether the English seamen were discovered to be a 'thieving, arrogant, debauched and drunken species of mankind, much given to profanity and swearing. They scarcely utter a a word without adding their favorite oaths 'God d@mn my soul! God d@mn me!' (Dohla, 1912, 95)"</p>

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<p>Sounds a bit off-topic for the original thread topic, but sounds like an interesting new thread you should start.:)</p>

<p>"Mainly to get some reactions"... well, that's honest. :D</p>

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<p>well, if you just read that part than it may be a bit off-topic.
If you read (and apply) my analogy, I think it is applicable to the discussion because I was previously discussing the types of training received by mids at each institution. And what is produced...</p>

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<p>"Training received by mids while at the academy."... Ok. interesting point. I say that because the mids at the Merchant Marine Academy spend a year at sea receiving hands-on training for either the deck or engine side of the Maritime service. As for military training. The Mids are able to join the Marine Ops program, the Army Ops program, the Air Force program. You can go to jump school, air-assault school, Marine Corps PLC program, the list goes on.
"And what is produced."... It sounds a little like you are mentioning that the graduates of the Merchant Marine Academy are nothing but foul-mouthed drunks. The Navy does have a reputation for being alcohol lovers, do they not? If you were trying to imply that MMA grads are drunks, should I imply that grads of USNA are cheaters (Electrical Engineering). I KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT AND I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT THEY ARE.</p>

<p>Also, serving in the maritime industry should not be looked down upon. That in its self is serving the needs of America. SERVING the country (Service Academy is what it is called). After all. Who carries the oil from the middle east over to the US? Who shipps cars from Japan/Germany/Italy over here? Who helps guide ships to port while they are in harbor (tugs/harbor pilots)? Are these fine people in the Navy.... or the maritime industry. </p>

<p>"The United States Navy...
200 Years of Tradition Unimpeded by Progress"
The United States Merchant Marine Academy has tradition as well. During WWII 142 MIDS lost their lives in the service of their nation. We are the only service academy that carries a battle standard. That battle standard also has ribbons hanging from the top that symbolize the campaigns that midshipmen served in.</p>

<p>Now it is impossible to say which academy provides the best leadership training. You have different views of the subject. It is a competition that cannot be won.</p>

<p>All I know is that I originally wanted to go tho the Naval Academy. But after spending a few months here I realize that the Merchant Marine Academy is far better for me.</p>

<p>And to clarify my service intentions: I am going to join the Marine Ops program and upon graduation choose Marine Ground. more specifically, Infantry Officer</p>

<p>Very Respectfully,
Will</p>