Leadership Training and Commitment

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<p>Please cite sources for this statement. It is totally incorrect. 'Most' means more than half. First off, half the class goes aviation. No aviator gets by with a less than 8 1/2 year or so commitment. Those who reach this stage and resign are normally upholding Darwin's theory. They are the ones who are poor aviatiors and are not receiving good fitreps (they are-in essence- being told to resign and don't have a union to protect them). NFOs are slightly less than the pilot commitment but far beyond the 'five and dive' and again, the ones the Navy wants to retain are usually retained. Not sure what they are but submariners have extended commitments also. Therefore, the 'five and dive' means absolutely nothing to 'most' of those who graduate from USNA. Furthermore, in all communities, fit reps are probably the defining force in resignations. Those who don't break out in the top half see the handwriting on the wall and resign. Again, Darwinism and no unions to protect the below average.</p>

<p>RIFs 15 or so years ago caused several class year retentions to be rather low and has skewed the overall figures, but typically 70% or so of each class reaches retirement.</p>

<p>I would venture a bet that there is a higher percentate of USNA grads who commit to a career in the Navy than USMMA graduates who are still at sea after their 5 year commitment.</p>

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I would venture a bet that there is a higher percentate of USNA grads who commit to a career in the Navy than USMMA graduates who are still at sea after their 5 year commitment.

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<p>But being at sea is not the commitment from KP. I would "venture a bet" that there are more KP grads at 20yrs serving in the maritime industry than there are USNA grads still in the navy (percentage wise).</p>

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<p>Not to train merchant mariners for sea and to maintain a viable current trained sea going force is not the reason that KP exists? That seems to be the vein of all the arguments for it's existance. I would again "venture a bet" that those civilian shore establishment positions would be better served by a good civilian MBA than by a KP degree.</p>

<p>Please agree with me on all of this or I am going to have to compare your example above to all those USNA grads who leave active duty and remain in the 'defense' industry which would be necessary for an apples to apples comparison, given your quite liberal definition of 'service'.</p>

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remain in the 'defense' industry

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<p>I would consider that a good use for an academy grad who has decided not to continue in the military. That would be an interesting comparison to do, I would bet the numbers would be similar.</p>

<p>KP has made some recent changes. Shore-side positions will be a rare thing now.</p>

<p>The Navy retention and rank structure is such that it resembles a pyramid. A whole bunch of Ensigns at the bottom and a very few Admirals at the top. Year Groups go before promotion boards at certain congressionally mandated periods in their service careers. Those who promote, continue in service, the others are forced out under various schedules depending on different factors. In addition to forced resignation, many realize that they will reach an early ceiling and voluntarily resign. </p>

<p>Billets in the Navy support this pyrmaid structure. Undue percentages in retention would skew the pyramid, causing an overabundance of officers at a particular rank. The Navy is an organization where only the best succeed. The Navy therefore determines retention and maintains the pyramid in it's desired dimensions. The fact that a very few Ensigns are USNA grads (someone on this forum incorrectly quoted 16%, I think), and the vast majority of Admirals are USNA grads, with each succeeding rank increasing proportionally, is an indicator that USNA is doing exactly what it was intended to do.</p>

<p>Yes they have, they started that transition with I think the class of 00. Each year has gotten progressively "stingier" with regards to shoreside employment. The interesting thing is going to be if they continue this trend where are all the sea based jobs going to come from. </p>

<p>I think this change is simply a pendulum that will continue this way for a few more years before coming back a little bit. There just won't be enough jobs at sea for everybody if they continue down this path.</p>

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<p>But they can still 'five and dive' ashore.</p>

<p>I dunno. Will have to find out some more about it. From what son told me, they've changed the comittment this year. Serving shore-side doesn't meet the requirements anymore. Where's LFWBDad when ya need him? He'd know. When I find the boy, I'll quiz him on it. I just don't know that much about it yet.</p>

<p>The current USMMA catalog indicates that a graduate has 6 years to complete the 5 year requirement and that if at sea billets are not available, waivers may be obtained such that shore billets are acceptable toward the mandatory minimums. If further states that all grads must maintain their CG license for 6 years and they must serve a minimum of 6 concurrent years in the military reserves or national guard.</p>

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<p>USNA69, you would be so upset if someone wrote something like this about your beloved USNA. This is an example of someone not fully understanding the commitment of a KP graduate.</p>

<p>A graduate does not have 6 years to complete the 5 year requirement. The five year requirement is for five years after graduation, you don't have a free year in there. (THere are 2 yr exemptions availabe, but very hard to get) </p>

<p>The reason for the six year license requirement is because the license is good for five years. By requiring six years they are in essence requiring ten years. The only way someone could get by with less than ten years of a valid license is if they upgraded there license in year two and then they could have it for seven years (the new one being good for five years).</p>

<p>As to the latest requirements I think this is just the continued increasing oversight by the compliance office. They are trying to maintain the 'you can only work shoreside if there is no sea-going job available'. I think what this is going to come down to is most graduates, with few exceptions, will be required to at least apply for a sea going job before they accept some shore based job and to provide proof that they were denied employment by the ship. Just my thoughts here, no official indications yet from MARAD or the Academy.</p>

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<p>No way, Chief, but if I start to I just have to look back at the following..
[ul]
[<em>]winter weather in the North Pacific.
[</em>]the approach to the Shanghai pilot boarding grounds at the mouth of the Yangtse.
[<em>]ISM audits.
[</em>]NS 5[/ul]</p>

<p>For Leadership Training, I'm going to have to say Annapolis takes the cake, while you get it shoved down your throat there, you only take 8 credits worth of Navy classes and 1 credit of Ethics at KP.
You can choose to take more if you want with the Ethics and Leadership Concentration though at KP.</p>

<p>On that note, I'd like to present an analogy that I admit may **** some people (USNA69) off.</p>

<p>In my Profession in Arms in the 18th Century course I am taking for the ELC course, we are discussing the change around that time of militaries changing from mercenary armies to professional militaries, ranging from Gustavus Adolphus to Napolean. Army officers were often considered to be very "professional" (think of officers in Monty Pythons the Meaning of Life). To be selected as an Army officer, one must be a level of aristocrat, and possibly know how to ride a horse a swing a sword. After that, he could focus on tactics and the like. This descended from the Middle Ages idea of chivalry and the like.</p>

<p>Naval Officers on the other hand were required to know much more knowledge about what they did, bracing sails, the orders given, stability, changes in the wind, weather etc. before they became officers. Many officers of the fleet were just merchant officers who had guns in their ships, and while this evolved into a Navy, the fact that Naval Officers were descended from middle class merchants they were looked down upon for the later parts of the 17th Century and the 18th Century. There was also a lack of tactical skill among Naval Officers because of the large amount of knowledge required beforehand, and this was somewhat stifled due to the threat of court-martial if a battle was lost and not fought with line tactics, but does not ignore that fact that Naval Officers were considered less "professional" than Army Officers.</p>

<p>Now to my point... it is widely considered that while the British had superior seamanship skills, and were better sailors, the French officers were more professional and knew more tactically. This was often battled out evenly throughout the 18th Century until about Trafalgar and the Time of Lord Nelson, (and to a lesser extent Quiberon Bay), where British Naval Officers became more "professional".</p>

<p>The short of it is that USNA grads are more like the French of this time and USMMA grads are more like the British.
Take that as you want.</p>

<p>In more modern terms, I consider that KP grads would be better suited as Chiefs and Annapolis grads officers.</p>

<p>In terms of commitment, it seems to me that USNA 69 has a slight beef with the fact that KP grads choose to go into the merchant fleet rather than active, or that people who wanted to go active are lured by the private sector. On the first point, many, if not more than 50%, of KPers choose this school to sail in the merchant marine, and had no want (or even knowledge about the option) to go active. Some of these grads do end up choosing active and contribute to the fleet when they would not have otherwise if they had gone to say, SUNY Maritime. As for the mids who want to go active, they still can, and often do, but while at KP they learn more about how to serve in other ways, be it in the Army as LFWBdad put it, or in the merchant fleet. You also have those who go out on Sea Year on either MSC ships or choose to go on a Navy cruise and see some (pardon the language) idiocy of Naval ships. Many merchant sailors laugh at the excess of everything and lack of logistics on Navy ships. Not to mention some of the messages they send over the VHF (some of those are ridiculous).
I would also like to point out that when KPers and USNA mids are on the same ship for a Navy cruise, the KP mids are often ranked ahead of the USNA mids. </p>

<p>On USNA69s point of KP recruiters at SA things, he should take into account the fact that the recruiter may not have gone to KP for the Navy, and could have been one of those who went in for MM, and thus would talk about his experiances as such. Not everyone is so Hoo-Rah to make money.
I would also like to point out the 5 and fly rate of a lot of SA grads nowadays. Also, that in his interview for West Point, Eisenhower said he only wanted to go there because it was free.</p>

<p>In my own case, I had the option to attend both USNA and KP and choose KP because, while I wanted to serve my country, I was not sure about what I wanted and knew my opinions on what I wanted could change, and thus choose KP over USNA. After having a wonderful sea year experience, traveling to over a dozen countries and getting as much sea time as an O-3, I have still decided I want to go active duty Navy. Between the fact that I could get more port time and I may see more interesting places (I am probably one of the few people who dislike containerization) and the fact that I want to serve my country lead toward this.</p>

<p>I take my opinion from a FADM Nimitz who, before WWII was offered a 6 figure job working in the private sector, but chose to serve his country instead. Money may help with a lot of stuff, but it's not everything.</p>

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<p>One of my students asked me a couple of weeks ago immediately after he had spilled a soft drink all over my desk if I never got pi$$ed off. After a few minutes of reflection, I decided that the last time I was upset enough to classify it as such, was in 1996. I actually enjoy these discussions. I think we are all learning something.</p>

<p>Your ELC observations, I think, are exactly what I have been trying to state for the past couple of weeks. USNA better prepares Naval Officers and USMMA does an excellent job of preparing merchant mariners.</p>

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<p>Not at all. A mix should be expected. Commitment and ‘service’ for those who do so,is a touchy subject but, yes, I think that it is of a higher order for those in the military. They lose more personal freedoms. They no longer have a choice. I spent a year with SpceWarGru One slogging around in the jungles of South Vietnam losing two team mates, I launched at night into North Vietnam to rescue downed Naval Aviators, I was involved in the evacuation of Cyprus in 1975, I have been involved in several ‘black’ ops inside hostile territory. At no time in my 24 year career did I have the opportunity to say ‘no’ to any of the missions or assignments to which I was assigned. My son has enough ‘hairy’ sea stories to last a couple of lifetimes. He and I did nothing that is out of the ordinary for what will be expected of any of the young men and women on these forums who are contemplating attending any of our major three service academies. Please tell me why you feel that you have submitted to the same commitment and why your service should be respected as much as theirs? </p>

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<p>I don’t know who you have been listening to but a SWO Navy Lieutenant (LT is a rank, 0-3 is simply a pay grade designation) will probably have a minimum of more than 4 years underway. My son, an airdale, has over three years of actual underway time as a LT alone.</p>

<p>Please tell me why you feel that you have submitted to the same commitment and why your service should be respected as much as theirs?</p>

<p>I do not disagree that active duty is considered a "higher-order" of service than a merchant officer. Nowadays anyway (we can have a different discussion of WWII). Although I don't see a big difference between a Guardsman over in Iraq and an active Army soldier.
Still... imagine the difference between all Military officers going on strike and all Merchant Officers going on strike...
Both are necessary in different ways</p>

<p>As for the 5 and fly comment, I'm only using 2nd hand sources so I'll trust you on the fact that my facts may be off</p>

<p>And as for the pi**ed off comment, that was for calling Annapolis grads frogs... ;)</p>

<p>Didn't even catch the 'frog' analogy. ha ha (how's that, Luugi?)</p>

<p>The merchant mariners of WW II were truly a brave lot and certainly have not received the respect which they deserved. Actually as a youngster, reading the exploits of the Liberty Ship sailors (unfortunately mostly in comic books) was what initially drew me to the Navy. However, you guys cannot live on those two years forever. It was a juxtaposition of events which will never happen again. A President who wanted to support an ally against the wishes of the public. A President whose hands were tied by the same public against any type of Naval buildup. These merchant mariners initially sailed with no protection, then with lend lease obsolute destroyers, and finally with the full capability of the American war machine. It was during this last phase that their casulties dropped substantially, more in line with every other branch of the service that was engaged.</p>

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<p>K314sig09, I can see you are going to be a real hit over there at “gray stack” line..
Make sure point out some of that “idiocy” when you get there. I’m also sure your comments and suggestions for improvement will be warmly welcomed! :)</p>

<p>The United States Navy...</p>

<p>200 Years of Tradition Unimpeded by Progress</p>

<p>Come on now, be realistic. They have found alternate ways to stay the masts on those square rigger wooden aircraft carriers in order to clear the flight deck to launch aircraft while on a starboard tack.</p>

<p>Or hasn't your ELC course gotten that far yet?</p>

<p>Luigi, no smileys intended.</p>

<p>As I said most bail after their 5 years, almost 70% by their LCDR boards (10 years). Avaitors may be the only exception. This is for the classes of 1980-85 and doubt the numbers are any better for recent classes. USNA69 you can prove otherwise.</p>

<p>See page 76 (95 adobe) for the table in the following report:
“The Effect of a Military Family Background on Midshipman Performance at USNA and USNA Graduate Performance in the Fleet”, James Michael, 1999, Naval Postgraduate School</p>

<p><a href="http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA362515&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA362515&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And there’s more out there in the world wide web.</p>