<p>I think you have to address the money thing before you go further. Yale, Stanford and Cornell do not offer merit money. If you can afford to pay either through your own income or what you expect to receive in way of need-based aid (or a combination of both), then your daughter's list will be pretty much open ended.</p>
<p>If she will need merit money, then scratch these and build another list.</p>
<p>Although all excellent colleges, Yale, Stanford, Cornell are vastly different in ambience and character. Urban, suburban, rural -- what's her preference?</p>
<p>Two other criteria that many people wind up finding most important are 1) how "quirky" or edgy or alternative you want the population to be. As opposed to how "preppy" or mainstream. 2) How "intellectual" vs. pre-professional.</p>
<p>Someone who is into humanities and wants quirky might start with Yale, move to UChicago or Reed, and then have Cal or say Carleton on the list, depending on the importance of location. Someone who wants science and mainstream might start with Princeton, move to Rice and then on to somewhere that specializes in the area of interest, say maybe New Mexico College of Mines for example....Pre-professional law maybe start with Harvard, then go to Northwestern, then Wake Forest maybe?</p>
<p>It should be used just like the US New rankings - as nothing more than a starting point to be consumed with a rock of salt. I had suggested a lit of about 15 schools for initial consideration to my D based on my own evaluation, and was surprised how pretty much every school showed up in the appropriate category on the Princeton Review web site. YMMV...</p>
<p>If you can't pay full tuition, and will not qualify for need-based aid, there is no point applying to schools like Stanford or the Ivies that don't give merit aid. Getting in and not being able to attend will be heart breaking, especially if you promised that she can "go wherever she wants".</p>
<p>"Choosing the Right College" from ISI. It's put out annually. It gives very in depth information on both elite and lesser known schools, private and state, with great reputations. Each has a handy price index, aver. financial aid, average loan debt for departing students, SAT/ACT scores, etc. In addition to departamental strengths and specifics on curriculum, also discusses dorm life, local community, extra-curriculars, campus traditions. I have the 2006 version. Will get another in a few years for son #2.</p>
<p>I'm not sure if ngmm is correct that you can't do full pay and won't qualify for need-based. If that is the case, the current list doesn't just need match schools. It is fatally flawed. Because, ngmm is right... Stanford and Yale won't work if you can't pay and can't get need aid. Which would mean she is highly likely to end up at her "safety" even if she gets in to those preferred schools. And she doesn't like her safety at all.</p>
<p>So, we need affordable reaches (those top schools which at least do give some merit aid; there is a list somewhere on another thread; I only rmemeber that it includes JHU). Matches which are known for good merit aid. And a safety she LIKES, which is either low cost or gives great merit aid.</p>
<p>I think several which fit this bill have already been mentioned. Other ideas: Lehigh, Tulane, Santa Clara University, UMiami... Not knowing her areas of interest and other criteria, I don't know whether these are on target or wide of the mark.</p>
<p>McGill and the other Canadian universities might be worth consideration. Even with the weaker dollar, they are significantly lower cost than equivalent US universities.</p>
<p>We got the list of 2007 class yesterday. D told me one of them got a full ride from Duke and we saw quite a few got into Vanderbilt. Per our research on the record, we found each year there is always 3 ~5 from this HS went to Vanderbilt. </p>
<p>Also, talked to D about State U as safety. She said she does not mind going there as honor and near full ride. So, the state U is the real safety. As a matter of fact, she got a personal letter inviting her for honor application yesterday (we sent both SAT and ACT scores to them already).</p>
<p>DadII - full rides from Duke are few and far between.</p>
<p>I go back to the money question in order to help narrow advice - will you be looking for merit aid or need-based aid? How much can you contribute?
True full rides are rare, someone gets them, but for planning purposes it is much safer to plan on contributing at least 10K to the child's education. With a cushion of at least a few thousand dollars, private universities with merit aid become much more doable. Don't faint, I consider that 10K to be a true family contribution, including money from summer earnings, loans, and the money you would spend on the child if she still lived at home - what would it cost to feed and clothe her if she went to community college for example?</p>
<p>I deduce that you must be from the South, if 3-5 always go to Vandy. Feel free to pm me if you don't want to share too much information on the public board - there are several other Southerners on this board. The search is a little different here because of more merit, less need-based aid.</p>
<p>There is no merit aid at Yale and Cornell. Duke and WUSTL do have merit aid up to full ride and more, but you can't count on getting it. </p>
<p>So, again, if merit aid is a must for your D to be able to go to private U, you should have several more good schools that give merit aid more liberally...</p>
<p>We did most of our visiting after acceptances, but you might want to visit a few types of campuses now. Say a rural, a suburban and an urban and something very large and something very small. You can look at local colleges for this. That may help you to eliminate some schools ahead of time.</p>
<p>You probably will not get both need-based and merit aid, most schools, not all, but most do one or the other.</p>
<p>A couple of the Ivies, Dartmouth, I know, and Penn or Princeton, has a calculator somewhere on their website that allows you to take you last year's tax return, plug in figures, and get a guesstimate of how much need-based aid you will get from that school. That figure will at least give you an idea if your definition of "need" is the same as theirs.
If you income is anywhere between 60K and 150K, I would highly recommend doing this. If your income is <60K, look into one of the very generous Ivies that provides complete aid to families under this level - Harvard, Princeton.
If you are in that middle group, be absolutely sure you can live with that EFC, because the final number will probably not be less than the calculator.</p>
<p>The honest truth is for most students in the South who come from middle income homes, getting a better financial deal than instate U - UGa, UF, UT, U of A, Auburn - offers them, is very much a crap shoot. You might get a better deal if there is something about you that Vandy really wants. You might get an equal deal from a number of LACs, that is better for the student because s/he needs that small, nurturing environment. I know a few students who actually get paid to go to Al or Auburn - they have enough merit/scholarship money that there is actually money going into the bank (don't get all excited, I'm talking about $100 or so /month) after expenses. I know a bunch of kids whose parents are coming out ahead because after merit money the college expenses are less than private high school tuition was. It is hard to get a private university package that is better than that.</p>
<p>One comment about campus visits. Able to identify with the money & time issue, but we had some colleges tell us that the students that take the time out of their schedules to visit, get looked at more closely & tend to receive more financial aid. In the long run, a tank of gas in exchange for a scholarship pays off. It also really helped my D narrow down what she was really looking for in a college. Good luck in your search. Congrats to your D!!!</p>
<p>DadII-
If Flagship U has rolling admissions, applying early can be a real stress buster, especially if the merit money comes pouring in.</p>
<p>In our experience, the need-based aid varies all over the place! U's supposedly use the same types of formulas, but the aid/EFA offered our son varied considerably. S was accepted to 2 of the schools on your D's list, and the aid he was offered eliminated one from his consideration; the other was surprisingly generous.</p>
<p>perhaps the moral here is to cast a wider net (which we did not do).</p>
<p>For meirt aid purpose, it is important to demonstrate interest. Pick a strong match that is not too far away so you can visit multiple times and meet with the student Dean as well as faculty in your D's field of interest. If there is an on campus interview, make sure that your D mentions merit aid as an attractive point.</p>
<p>^^ nngm, it is because her reading of these postings that make her want to apply for all these schools. She is comparing herself with other kids in her HS too. Everyone is talking about these and she is like " so and so is applying to this, and so and so is applying to that" . "I have better stat than both so and so". she must have forgotten her dad does not have that $1m income.</p>
<p>I did ask her to go talk to GC and college counselor. I am afraid they would encourge her too because she is one the top 5 in this very competitive HS.</p>
<p>I really don't want to break her heart but seeing her remove the safety State U is breaking my heart and will break my wallet just in application fees.</p>
<p>Applying to too many schools is not a problem, if it does not compromise the quality of the applications (which it sometimes does!). There is a price tag to it, but if you compare it to the tuition you'll be soon paying, it is relatively low.</p>
<p>It could be that your D is choosing this kind of list because you've limited the number of schools she can apply to, and she feels that she must maximize her chances to get into one she really wants. Maybe you should let her apply where she wants, but require the state school to be on that list.</p>
<p>I'd exercise parental authority and require her to apply to a couple of safeties in addition to other colleges of her choice. The alternative of not applying and ending up not being accepted anywhere is not a good one. Decisions this important shouldn't me left completely up to a 17y/o inexperienced mind.</p>
<p>The application fees are insignificant in comparison to the overall cost of college so it's not a time to be too frugal in this area. It might end up being significantly offset anyway if merit awards are offered at some of these schools and she ends up going there.</p>