Let the game begin!

Parents Forum
101

<p>One important item regarding merit aid ... Unless a student is able to earn 100% of the COA via merit aid, his or her family will still need to pay the EFC. While schools will typically allow for merit aid to reduce self-help and loans, a strong line will be drawn when it comes to the EFC. </p>

<p>In many cases, merit aid offered directly by schools does NOT change much or even none of the net costs after need based financial aid is calculated. A school offering 1/2 tuition to a low or average EFC student may look good on paper, but means nothing in dad's and mom's wallet!</p>

<p>Again, that is why it is important to KNOW one's Federal EFC as soon as possible.</p>

102

<p>O.K. How about this list?</p>

<p>Harvard, Yale, Duke, Cornell, Wash U, U. of Virginia, U. of Michigan, Vanderbilt, and State U. </p>

<p>We search the past admission results from D's HS. Other than H and Y, everyone who had equal stat as D's got in from Duke, Cornell, Wash U, U. of Virginia, U. of Michigan, and Vanderbilt. Is this good?</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
The #1 problem is time, D is so busy with her Key club and other HS stuffs.

[/quote]

It seems that visiting a few colleges to get a feel for them would be worth missing a key club event or two. You're talking about a typical college investment from tens of thousands to possibly hundreds of thousands depending on your circumstances and the next 4-5 years of her life. Isn't that worth missing a HS club meeting or two?</p>

104

<p>Dad II, how far back do those results go? Admit stats from even five years ago are not going to reflect what's happening in admissions offices these days.</p>

105

<p>Your new list looks better (especially with the State U on it...)</p>

<p>Maybe she should also consider Rice. It is excellent, relatively cheap, and generous with merit aid...</p>

106

<p>
[quote]
Maybe she should also consider Rice. It is excellent, relatively cheap, and generous with merit aid...

[/quote]

Same goes for Emory.</p>

107

<p>While this may be a more reasonable list, it is quite clear to me that aside from the state U, your list is built on your desire for brand names rather than informed choice. While I am tempted to reason with you important considerations other than expanding the range of USNews college rankings, I recognize the likely futility of such efforts and will therefore keep my opinion to myself. I do widh you and your D a happy and successful year.</p>

108

<p>Me and wife have pushed both Emory and Rice very hard but going not where. LAC is certainly out.</p>

<p>It looks like D's is among a pack of good friends who are applying together. So the list have not gotten agreement from the "others" yet. D's used to have a couple of LAC in mind but has changed lately. </p>

<p>"a promise given is a debt unpaid" D said last night, refering to my "promise" of paying any school she got in. She even bring our S into the situation - "You are going to state U , right". A it getting clear day by day that there is a driving force I don't know yet or a seed I planed so deep, that D is going high with confidence. </p>

<p>me and my big mouth.</p>

109

<p>
[quote]
D's is among a pack of good friends who are applying together.

[/quote]

This is often inevitable, but certainly is not a good "strategy", as they will be competing against each other... </p>

<p>She is OK with Vanderbilt, but not with Rice? That is totally irrational...</p>

<p>If you are looking for merit aid, you need more schools that give it.</p>

110

<p>Dad II, the "driving force" you speak of is a combination of immaturity and arrogance. Personally, I do not think it would be a tragedy if she finds it necessary to take a gap year. She needs to distance herself from that "pack of good friends" she allows to make her life decisions for her.</p>

<p>Just my opinion, speaking as the parent of one child who loves his friends but is unafraid to ignore their opinions and one who pays way too much attention to what her friends think. My independent one has an easier road in front of him, I think.</p>

111

<p>I agree with midmo. I also think that if you now realize that finances are a concern when it comes to her applications, her criticial thinking skills could use some improvement (as is the case with virtually all h.s. seniors, no matter how intelligent, due to their brain development) if she's trying to hold you to a promise you made before knowing all the facts about college costs. </p>

<p>My impression from reading your posts, however, is that you're very proud of your D's confidence and her achievements, and you'd be happy to delay getting a BMW and going to Europe in order to pay for her to attend a place like Harvard or Princeton. If that's the case, you're not complaining, but actually are proudly posting about your D's plans and reactions. If so, my advice is she should apply to some top school ED to up her chances of admission, and you should hold to your original promise and stop burdening your D with unnecessary worries. If you want to save a few bucks, just have her apply for some local merit-based aid. If she's as outstanding as you say, she'll get some.</p>

112

<p>I think you are being a little too hard on this girl.</p>

<p>Given Dad II's description of his D's achievements in No. 78, she is obviously doing GREAT. My kids should do so well. So she wants to apply to Vanderbilt and WashU but not Rice and Emory, so what? At the margins, all of these application decisions are essentially irrational (or perhaps arational), and often based on the flavor du jour among a child's friends.. It is not as if there is any more real likelihood that she will be happy at one highly selective medium-sized school rather than another.</p>

<p>Of course, the financial issues are another thing entirely. I have no real idea whether she would qualify for merit aid at WashU, for example, and the terms and conditions of her being allowed to attend need to be clearly set out to her. Dad II seems to have gotten himself into something of a bind on this point. I have my own private opinions on how this situation should be handled, given his earlier representations, but I would not want to cast aspersions on those who take a different view, so I'll just keep quiet on this point.</p>

113

<p>DadII, this is tough one. Your daughter sounds like a great student who is 16-17-18 years old who comes with some of the baggage that many kids that age carry.</p>

<p>Personally, I'm not a big fan of special handling during college hunts/applications because this is such an important decision ... in fact, I think this is prime time for a kid to take responsibility for their actions and to deal with an adult decision making decision situation (deal with the true facts)</p>

<p>How does all that involve your daughter? I only have the info I've read in this string and am making assumptions based on this string. Your daughter sounds like a great student but is behaving somewhat immaturely at this time ... nothing unusual for her age but not helping the situation much.</p>

<p>If it were my daughter I would do three things</p>

<p>1) Figure out how much makes sense for the family to pay. Each family needs to decide for itself what it wants to pay. If you want her to focus on getting merit aid (or whatever the plan is) ... say it and stick to your guns. You are all learning about the process and you know more than you did when you made your first statements. Personally having this position evolve is probably pretty common and not problematic as long as you set your position in time for her to apply to schools. Changing your position after applications have been submitted would be unfair to your daughter in my opinion</p>

<p>If your daughter argues you once said you would pay for any school and you shouldn't change your mind ... I would ask her to explain how her college list evolving is different than your position on paying evolving? She's going to have a hard time providing a logical argument of why they are different ... or at least you can state your reality; we both made statements given the info we had at the time and then as we gathered more info our positions changed. I doubt she'll respond well to being pinned but it is the reality of adult life ... as we gain more info we update our mental model (and this is an important life skill ... total rathole coming ... although it seems you can become President without possesing this skill at all).</p>

<p>2) As a parent if I am going to pay bucks above our local State U I need to be given a coherent argument of why this school is better than the local State U. (FYI - I'm in the camp of we'll pay for any school ... but to go above the State U you need to describe specific reasons it's better fit). </p>

<p>Her lists includes schools with top student but otherwise I can't see the pattern ... medium, big, and huge schools ... city, suburb, and rural ... northeast, mid-atlantic, south, and mid-west ... very differing approaches to student living arrangements ... and we have no idea of her acaemic interests. From the outside it looks like an ecclectic list of schools with tough admissions ... with no coherent underlying desire for the school.</p>

<p>One suggestion ... have her go to the Princeton Review web site and play with the feature that allows you to see "Students who applied to X also tend to apply to Y" ... if she does this she won't get lists anything like her current list.</p>

<p>Again, in my family since I'm paying I'd make my kid go through this exersize if their list made little sense to me.</p>

<p>3) Finally, if you don't really make head way let her apply where she wants and let her deal with the consequences (including your sticking to your guns about finances). If she gets into terrific schools and she can't afford it it will be frustrating but a lesson learned. If she only has one merit offer because of limited applications to merit schools that also will be frustrating but a lesson learned.</p>

<p>Personally, I do not have a big problem with gap years ... especially for kid who really want to (and can make a case for) going to schools with low admission odds. If you hold the line and your daughter choses not to listen she may work herself into a gap year ... for me in our family we will give our kids the rope to hang themselves and deal with the consequences; we believe it is the best way or them to learn ... and from the limited info we have from this string if this were my daughter I'd force her to gather the right information (school attributes and our financial plan) and let her decide what she wanted to do and let her live with the consequences. I never want my kids coming back to me about a major life decision and saying we forced them into a decision other than their own.</p>

114

<p>EMM1, my harsh words about Dad II's daughter were elicited by his story in post 108. Any young woman who demands that her parents be held to an unwise promise made when the situation was different (tuition has increased far faster than the rate of inflation over the last 5 or 6 years, and the acceptance rate at top schools has plummeted) sounds spoiled, demanding and immature.</p>

<p>As for her college choices as set out in post 102, she now has 9 schools ranging from ultra-selective (and impossible to predict) to complete safety, with a couple of 'fairly likely with small possibility of merit aid' thrown in. She can probably stop here, but if she and Dad really want merit aid, it would be wise to include more schools that offer it.</p>

<p>As for her qualifications set out in post 78, there are thousands of kids with those numbers and national/regional/state awards. My son and half a dozen of his friends were among them. Some had good results (my son is attending one of the schools listed in post 112 on a full tuition/fees merit award) but some with records that seemed better than his were not accepted at any of the top schools on their lists. </p>

<p>It is easy for parents and students to overestimate their chances at both acceptances and merit awards. Unless there is more to Dad's daughter's record than has been indicated, I do not think it is reasonable to expect a large merit award from the schools on her list. If Dad's EFC is really only 10K, as indicated elsewhere, then it really doesn't matter that much, as long as work study and loans are OK.</p>

115

<p>She said to her brother, "You are going to State U, right?"</p>

<p>Meaning, since his education would be cheap then she was entitled to what you promised her? </p>

<p>Frankly, I would guess that your daughter has a very good shot at the schools she wants to apply to and as long as she would be actually happy at the state school (which is what BTW?) this list is perfectly fine - assuming you will pay of course. If you will not or cannot pay then all the caveats here are important.</p>

<p>However, unless I am missing context I don't get the scenario in which a sister turns to her little brother and makes that kind of statement. How old is he? How can he know? Can she really think that she should get a paid tuition only by making him promise not to cost much?</p>

<p>I must be missing something.</p>

116

<p>DadII, IF your daughter is interested in engineering (which may or may not be the case), you might want her to look at RPI, which offers excellent merit aid (especially to women) AND is in the top 50. </p>

<p>I see from subsequent discussion that your D seems to be interested in the high-prestige Ivies. Is she interested in MIT and likely to major in one of the high-revenue fields, like economics or engineering or math? If so, she would probably have no difficulty paying back those loans.</p>

117

<p>Past results from this HS (# of applied/#of accepted, sorry about format). Since D is one of the top 5 in this HS, she should stand a good chance of getting into these U. </p>

<p>YEAR WashU Virginia Michigan Vanderbilt
2007 16/5 9/5 10/4 18/10
2006 16/5 5/1 06/3 15/06
2005 12/2 9/3 09/3 12/02
2004 07/4 5/3 05/3 11/06
2003 08/4 2/0 14/9 14/08
2002 14/5 7/3 14/5 11/03</p>

<p>BTW, Bio/Bio med are where her heart is.</p>

118

<p>It's good she has some more match schools on her list. But getting accepted is only the first step in the whole process. </p>

<p>Would your daughter be happy to actually attend any of those schools?
Would you be happy to pay for them? Would you be able to pay for them? What are her chances of merit/need based aid if you can't/won't pay?</p>

119

<p>JHU is very good for Bio/Bio med, gives merit aid and has the name recognition you are looking for.</p>

120

<p>DADII, since your D expressed an interest in WashU and Vanderbilt, have her discuss this with her GC and ASK if the GC did not receive special applications for scholarships at these two schools. Some school scholarships require the nomination by the high school/guidance counselor. </p>

<p>The same applies to some national scholarships such as the Toyota. On the other hand, many are open to anyone. Of course, this results in tens of thousands of applications. For instance the very popular Coca Cola Scholarship reports between 80 and 100,000 applications per year. </p>

<p>Your D should also inquire about her school relation with the Morehead Cain and Robertson scholarships (UNC-Chapel Hill and Duke) </p>

<p><a href="http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=11%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=11&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.moreheadfoundation.org/about/nomination/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.moreheadfoundation.org/about/nomination/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Another great program is the Bellingrath Scholarship at Rhodes. Check
<a href="http://www.rhodes.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.rhodes.edu&lt;/a>. </p>

<p>All of the three scholarships mentioned above have been won by children of current CC posters. At least two of them did forgo an acceptance at Yale to take advantage of the programs offered to them at UNC and Rhodes. Please read the stories reported by Eadad and Curmudgeon to understand that the decision was far from being solely based on finances. </p>

<p>Dad II, speaking about Rhodes (the other one!) and since you have "some" interest in prestige, you may be interested in reading the story of Rachel Mazyck. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/nov04/rhodes112104.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/nov04/rhodes112104.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There are numerous similar stories that could demonstrate that many alternative paths to the "known" names DO work wonders, including on your wallet. However, finding the right paths does require dropping the blinders that focus too intensily on highly ranked schools in the USNews magazine. It seems that the pack of friends your D hangs out with should heed that advice!</p>