Let's be honest about Honors Colleges and In-State schools

College Search & Selection
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<p>There have been a number of threads here comparing Honors Colleges and specific programs, usually within a large in-state university, to more selective colleges. Can we be honest that -- removing the financial issues -- this is an unfair comparison?</p>

<p>For a highly motivated student, who could get into a more selective college, to choose to attend an in-state school is a perfectly rational decision. Especially if that is what the family is able to afford. This is more and more the case, I suspect. But to say that -- financial considerations aside -- that program offers the same value to, say, an Ivy seems a huge stretch. It is akin to comparing the Honda I can afford and which suits my needs, to a BMW I'd love to have but cannot afford. This is a non-decision; I buy the Honda because I can afford it. If I could afford the BMW and wanted that, then I would buy that.</p>

<p>I am sure that Honors colleges offer the advantages of small classes and more serious students than would otherwise be the case at the larger university. And, getting in-state tuition -- or the Hope Scholarship in the case of UGA -- is compelling. However, I'd like to hear some opinions whether people believe that programs such as UGA's Honors College offer the education experience and post-grad advantages (recruiting, network, rep, etc.) that one might get at an Ivy or more selective school? Or, should we be candid and say that these programs are only attractive when money is a factor?</p>

<p>Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts.</p>

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<p>Your question is basically analogous to questions like: ‘ignoring health issues is there any reason to see a doctor?’ Yep, if you are rich and don’t want to stay that way paying little attention to value is a great idea. </p>

<p>But why limit the discussion to in-state schools? Many state university recruit students from all 50 states and internationally and many are geographically blind when considering merit scholarships. So, if you receive a full scholarship into the honors program at UMASS Amherst you could be from Tulane and still be taking courses at Amherst, Mt. Holyoke, Smith and Hampshire colleges. </p>

<p>If you wish to believe that your Johnny won’t be getting into a great grad program because they didn’t go to an Ivy, there are many people here that will tell you that their son or daughter did just that AND did it debt free. </p>

<p>If you wish to believe that teachers at Ivy schools have improved ways of teaching philosophy or German Lit. unknown to the rest of the teaching world, that’s your choice. If you wish to believe that great research institution are only nestled in the campuses of the Ivy League, I doubt you spent any time at Georgia Tech. </p>

<p>But you asked for honesty. Brutal honesty is that an Ivy school offers a terrific environment and a very talented group of students and an established network of success. Brutal honesty is that many top state universities offer that and about 200,000+ reasons more to attend.</p>

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Especially since we know Ivy PhDs would never, ever stoop to teaching at public colleges…</p>

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<p>Quite true and goodness knows Ivies would never hire a non-Ivy PhD to teach there.</p>

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<p>CT,</p>

<p>Thank you for your note. I knew this topic would hit a nerve with some, but I appreciated your viewpoint.</p>

<p>Some comments back to you…</p>

<p>-I disagree with your analogy regarding health issues. The analogy would be if you had a health issue and needed a doctor, would you prefer one doctor (private) over another (free clinic). And, of course, money factors in there too.
-Scholarships are a compelling factor in deciding where to attend, we agree.
-My argument was never that a solid undergrad education at any school would prevent someone from getting into a good grad school. Would you, however, say that the strength (not size) of the alumni network from UMass/Amherst will be as valuable in one’s career as, for instance, Amherst’s?
-Not sure whether there is any difference in teaching quality between a public or private. Not even sure how to measure that, but it’s probably not based purely on research. Like you, I doubt it.</p>

<p>My point in this post is not to dump on public schools, or to say that private schools > publics. But, to the posters who want to compare UCSD to Stanford, or BC Honors to Harvard, if $ is not a factor (and this may be the case fo those who have saved for their kids’ education) these seem like easy decisions. If $ is a factor, it is either a very tough (weighing the impact of debt) or very easy (we can’t afford it) decision.</p>

<p>This is not a social commentary.</p>

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The posters did not compare UCSD/BC Honors to Stanford or Harvard, they compared the future of an Ivy level student who has a choice to attend either of those universities. And the point is that the future of that Ivy-level student might well be just as bright (and debt-free) after an In-state school’s Honors college as it would be after Harvard. Quite a number of researches point to exactly this conclusion.</p>

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<p>I also appreciate your viewpoint, but (partly) it is a social viewpoint. You can’t raise points about a BMW versus a Honda without making that clear. It’s not a matter of dollars as much as it is value and if you build a discussion around value not being front and center, you have a value-less discussion. </p>

<p>When I play at my golf club, I park my 10 year-old Acura TL next to my buddy who drives his Aston Martin. As he works in NYC and takes the train I needle him about how often he gets to use his car and how much his car costs him per hour when it sits in his garage or how when we’re both sitting in local traffic, I notice that I’m happier … that kind of stuff. </p>

<p>I worked for a drinks company. Our marketing plan was simple, convince people that drinking whiskey would make them happier and drinking more expensive whiskey would make them even happier. They would become more popular and be surrounded by better looking women.</p>

<p>Same goes with schools, there is a difference between perception and reality. And to some degree I’ll admit sometimes perception is reality. To your question about the value of a Amherst alumni network. I don’t know. I’ve been in the corporate world for many years and have never met an Amherst grad. Then again, after someone’s first job, who gives a hoot where they went undergrad? I’ve heard that Amherst alums were big in book publishing, but would kindly suggest that book editing jobs and such is not what it once was. So you tell me, what is the value of an Amherst alumni network?</p>

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<p>^ But how do you measure “brightness”? How do you now that Student A who attended State U Honors did just as well as if Student A (the SAME student) had attended Elite Private U? It’s impossible to know, of course. So many individual, seemingly insignificant decisions and experiences affect one’s future life profoundly. For instance, when my father was applying to Ph.D. programs from China, he received two offers: one in Canada and one in Singapore. He chose Canada because of its liberal immigration policies–but if I had grown up in Singapore instead of Canada/US, I think I would be a rather different person.</p>

<p>What is the value-added of an OVERALL academically-stronger peer group? It isn’t quantifiable, so each student needs to decide for him/herself. College is also about more than just networking and “brightness”; I’m a huge believer in fit. The atmosphere and experience has a great impact on what a student will get out of a school, no matter how good/bad the academics and opportunities are.</p>

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<p>I’ll probably be attending the University of Colorado at Boulder Honors Program, and I think the value is quite similar to that of an Ivy caliber school. The reason I say that is because it is cheaper, I’ll be taking smaller classes with highly respected professors, and I’ll be in a community of high-achieving students. To get into CU-Boulder Honors, you have to be in the top 10% of incoming students (calculated by GPA and SAT/ACT)… so while I think the top 10% of incoming students at CU-Boulder is not quite as high as that of an Ivy league school, it’s pretty close. I’ll be taking small classes with great professors among great students, all within a major research university. That’s why I think the value is similar.</p>

<p>The prestige, on the other hand, is not. If I tell someone that I went to the CU-Boulder Honors program, they may think I’m at least somewhat intelligent… but if I went to Harvard, the perception of that person isn’t even comparable. Granted, I didn’t apply to any Ivy caliber schools (even though I’m regretting it now). </p>

<p>So to summarize my opinion… If I had the choice between a respected state university honors program and, say, Cornell, I would chose Cornell simply because of the reputation and quality. But the quality and value of a state honors program is pretty dang good as well, so I’m not too disappointed with my options.</p>

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<p>Uh, yes, I have seen several posts that make similar, if not these exact, comaprisons. And they are not hypothetical. You mention the research; please send links or information. I’m interested to learn more about this. Thank you.</p>

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<p>Keilexandra,</p>

<p>Thank you for your post. Yes, I agree. When my D decided to attend a private high school, it was a difficult decision. But, the biggest driver for us was that “all boats rise” there. As expected, she has upped her game immeasurably along with this new group around her. And she has enjoyed the whole process. Of course, had she gone to the public school choice, I am sure she would have done fine. The experiences are very different.</p>

<p>AT9,</p>

<p>Your decision to attend CU’s Honors program sounds like a good one, and I am sure that will be a great experience for you. There can always be a regret factor in wondering if you could have done something, but it sounds like quite an accomplishment to be accepted into that program. </p>

<p>Back to Keilexandra’s comments, and my own knowledge of UGA’s Honors College…within that program students probably have an academic experience on par with a more selective college. And, I’d bet the bonds formed among the students will create a strong alum network over time. I just wonder how much it bugs a serious student to be around the other students – the vast majority – who may be more interested in the sports versus the academic programs the school offers. And whether the rep the larger school has helps or hurts as you navigate the real world.</p>

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<p>Whenever threads like this pop up, I am interested to see how many assumptions and biases posters bring to their arguments (self included). All of our straw men really need to be knocked down, because for each and every student and family, this is a deeply personal decision, and emerges from each family’s circumstances, attitudes, philosophies and values. </p>

<p>I am struck by a comment in one of mikey175’s earlier posts, he said </p>

<p>“if $ is not a factor (and this may be the case fro those who have saved for their kids’ education) these seem like easy decisions.“</p>

<p>I would maintain that in fact if $ is not a factor the decision might actually be more difficult in our brand-name-obsessed culture – if the decision is the counter-intuitive choice to walk away from the top brand for what might seem to be the “lesser” school. </p>

<p>We had the money, sent our D to private schools for 14 years, and could have sent D to either of the two Ivies that accepted her. She chose an Honors Program at an in-state public U. It was the right choice FOR HER, based on what she determined to be her goals and her value criteria.</p>

<p>There are plenty of people who can afford a BMW but who CHOOSE to drive a Honda. They are very likely making a value decision – but not all value decisions are about financial value. </p>

<p>Not all smart, serious students are “bugged” by being among a community of students that may include <em>gasp</em> sports fans or even average people. Some actually seek out a broader, more intellectually diverse community precisely because they don’t wish to spend four years in a bubble. </p>

<p>Not every student who chooses one path is going to regret the road not taken. Others will. But that will be a function of temperament, personality and experience. Someone who chooses the “better” school is just as likely to wonder “what if” they’d made a different choice as the kid who chooses the “lesser” option – depends on the kid and the circumstances.</p>

<p>Not all students who have access to a great alumni network will take advantage of it, or need it. Some will create a meaningful network of useful contacts and friends in a different way. </p>

<p>Not all employers assess applicants based on the name or rep of the undergraduate school – even for that first job in many cases. </p>

<p>And let’s remember, name recognition will bring with it a boat-load of assumptions on the part of that employer (and other people in general) – and depending on the circumstances or the individual, the gold-plated “name” may or may not be an asset, the “inferior” name may or may not be a liability.</p>

<p>In the final analysis, all any of us can do is make one choice, and hopefully it is the best choice for our family, our child, our circumstances. If the choice is made thoughtfully, sincerely, and after due diligence there should be no need to second-guess ourselves, or hold ourselves up to anyone else’s standards or yardstick.</p>

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<p>I admire anyone trying to step up their game. But the reality is that education is not like the tide, not all students rise. We live in a town where people move to because of the quality of our town’s school system. True we pay more in town taxes for that, but sometimes you get what you pay for. Several of my younger son’s friends left for private schools their freshman year. I think they were all ‘one and done.’ Now, some of it was that they missed their friends, some of it was that they didn’t like being away and some of it was they didn’t get what they thought they were getting (a better education). Another kid’s parents had their public high school sophomore repeat sophomore year at a private school. So, not only are they paying town taxes for the privilege of funding other kids to go to school, they are paying $28,000 for their son to repeat a grade. Then, when they were unhappy with his progress they found they couldn’t transfer him back (because of state required courses for graduation) without him having to repeat his Senior year. He’s a great kid but is currently counting the days before he can get out of a school that has cost $84,000. He will be going to a good private college, say a Syracuse level school for discussion purposes. So, getting him through college will cost his parents about $300,000 give or take a laptop computer. </p>

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<p>I completely understand. It would have been sweet just for the self-knowledge that you could have been admitted to an Ivy. But this too shall pass. When you are out and about the conversation will have shifted to what you are doing. I would be lying through my teeth if I said it wasn’t pretty sweet to go back to my high school reunion. I’ve noticed that the guy who went to Dartmouth (and stuck up his nose about it) has never made a reunion. He makes and sells crafts at those craft fairs. Does that make my life and better? Nope. But I’d be lying through my teeth if I said it didn’t make me smile when I heard about it.</p>

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<p>orchestramom,</p>

<p>Thanks for what has to be one of the most well thought out posts I have seen on CC. I definitely have my own biases, and these are becoming more apparent to me as this thread progresses. Among the excellent points you make are that choosing the in-state program may be the best fit for a student, regardless of financial resources. That goes back to Keilexandra’s earlier point. Agreed. You make a fair point that many students (mine included) want to be around people of all different ability levels. In other words, you are accusing me of being an academic snob. I need to think about that one. Re: sports fans, that’s not my issue. More the focus that some large campuses have on their sports teams over academics. In all, I appreciated your point of view.</p>

<p>I hope others will share theirs as well.</p>

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<p>ctyankee,</p>

<p>I agree…going to the “best” school a student can get into is a foolish strategy. Goes back to fit and the environment in which the student will best thrive.</p>

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<p>“Quite true and goodness knows Ivies would never hire a non-Ivy PhD to teach there.”</p>

<p>My d. is a grad student at Princeton. In her department (which is one of the top 5 in the country), only one of the 14 professors has an Ivy undergraduate degree. (University of Missouri-Kansas City, Brooklyn College, and University of Reading are represented). Among her classmates, not one has an Ivy undergraduate degree. </p>

<p>In both cases, they’ve had plenty apply. Somehow, for some reason, they just don’t measure up.</p>

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<p>Gosh, mini, I hope that when your daughter completes her studies she isn’t penalized for having that inferior Ivy PhD ;)</p>