<p>ubermensch, I believe you are way off. The report to which you refer is used by no one in the admissions business. It is a biased study that went unnoticed by all in the industry as well as students themselves (I think we can agree that outside of a few people here no one has heard of it).
The Princeton Review (not affiliated with Princeton Univ.) publications are perhaps the most widley used among GCs and high school students. They have more staff and researchers devoted to the valuation of colleges than the small, biased report you refer to. US News also has spent years and more research hours than that study (if we can call it that). The Consus Grp., Boston based Atlantic Monthly, the Prowl'r College Guide are all in agreement that Princeton is the best and Most Selective, non-technical, undergraduate university in America, if not the world.</p>
<p>Even Mr. Avery (the Harvard researcher), in his report and book, The Early Admissions Game, recognized Princeton as having the highest median SAT scores in the country (outside of the technical schools - MIT and CalTech).</p>
<p>Princeton and Harvard are the only 2 schools that routinely show up in the NATIONAL rankings. More often than not Princeton wins out at the undergrad level and Harvard at the Grad level. Yale usually follows both (hence the continual reference to "HYP") and Stanford some distance behind. Regards.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Even Mr. Avery (the Harvard researcher), in his report and book, The Early Admissions Game, recognized Princeton as having the highest median SAT scores in the country (outside of the technical schools - MIT and CalTech).[
[/quote]
Perhaps Prof Avery should have checked the Collge Board web site, which shows that what you say is not true. Moreover, Avery is the co-author of the NBER study, which puts Pton 6th in national rankings. Can u tell me what page of the Early Admissions Game you found this. we have it in our school librray and I will check it.</p>
<p>what about harvey mudd college?</p>
<p>I have heard rumors about the Tufts-Princeton Syndrome as well. Many of the highest ranking students in my high school were accepted to Harvard, Stanford, and MIT but not Princeton. However, 4 people ranked from 25 to 40 were accepted to Princeton but rejected from HYS. </p>
<p>Princeton is for smart (but not superstar) students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Princeton is for smart (but not superstar) students
[/quote]
The difference among the student bodies at HYPS is negligible. In that case, maybe none of them are for "superstars" as you put it.</p>
<p>mensa, Mr. Avery (a Harvard employee) lays out the median SAT scores of all top schools in the appendix of The Early Admissions Game. As I have said, aside from the Tech Schools (MIT and CalTech) Princeton reigns supreme. Princeton edges out H and is significantly ahead of Y and S.
What makes this fact so interesting is that Princeton has a smaller student body which is diluted by a correspondingly higher percentage of athletes, legacies, etc. Even with the higher percentage of such Princeton still manages to come out on top. Amazing stuff.</p>
<p>But as a I said, regardless of the above, Princeton will continue to be #1 because in comparison to its peers (H&Y), it is the only school with a TOTAL Undergraduate focus. This fact is not missed by the GCs at the elite boarding schools (Andover, Exeter, Groton, St. Paul, Milton, Choate, Taft, Loomis, Lawrenceville, Deerfield etc. etc.). Their students are accustomed to quality instructors and lots of teacher access. Among the big 3 (HYP), Princeton best matches that environment.</p>
<p>I think Harvard, Stanford, and Yale are a notch above Princeton. Most high schoolers also feel this sentiment because Princeton's applicant pool has been on a steady decline and their yield has been dropping substanitially. This comes in the face of record applicant pools at Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and MIT. If Princeton was listed on the New York Stock Exchange, analysts would be calling it an underperformer. And indeed it is. </p>
<p>Just look at these links: <a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/02/13/news/9604.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/02/13/news/9604.shtml</a>
"Last November, within months of her appointment as dean, [Princeton] announced that early decision applications dropped by more than 20 percent relative to the previous year, while early applications at Yale and Stanford rose sharply.
Amidst such intense competition and rapid change, Rapelye said, the University operates at a disadvantage compared to its rival institutions in some areas. Noting that there are about 30,000 high schools in the United States, and only 15 staffers in the University admissions office, Rapelye said, "We're lean. We're very lean."</p>
<p>Also take a look at this:
<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/10/07/news/10999.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/10/07/news/10999.shtml</a>
"The University's admissions yield dropped five percentage points from last year, declining to a five-year low"</p>
<p>I think high schoolers know about the Tufts-Princeton Syndrome, and they feel that Princeton doesn't live up to the standards of Stanford, Harvard, MIT, and Yale. Princeton's peers like UPenn and Columbia have also been enjoying record number of applicants.</p>
<p>Collegeperson, You are wrong. Very wrong. You've got to do your due diligence! I am curious, where do you go to school?
"Princeton's apps on a steady decline"- How can you say that? The slight drop they had followed a HUGE increase the year before.</p>
<p>If Princeton were on the stock market it would be the ultimate Blue Chip. It has the best balance sheet in the country (on a per student basis, its endowment is the largest in the country by a long shot). How many companies enjoy that kind of strength?</p>
<p>If you're correct why do all the selectivity rankings continually put Princeton at the top of undergrad programs? Who gets higher undergrad ranking than Princeton? Please answer that one!</p>
<p>You can say that I'm wrong as many times as you want and continue to bury your head in the sand. But I have backed up my arguments with the statements of Princeton's own dean of admission. Where's your evidence? US News rankings? Princeton Review? Please. Those rankings are so easily manipulated that they are considered to be jokes. Especially the Princeton Review. </p>
<p>Yale, Harvard, and Stanford experienced great surges in applications over the years whereas Princeton has suffered great declines. A 20% decline in one year is no laughing matter. If you had invested 100,000 dollars in shares of Princeton stock, you would have lost 20,000 dollars. That's like your father's 401K retirement account after the bubble economy burst. Except in this case Princeton is the only school crying to the bank. </p>
<p>If Princeton is a Blue Chip stock, I'd say it is most similar to a beleaguered blue chip like Worldcom or Sears and Roebuck. The big boys are coming in, and Princeton is just not fit enough to survive. </p>
<p>If Princeton is such an attractive school, why do they admit students who fall just under the threshold for admission into Stanford and Yale? If Princeton is such an attractive school, why do they still cling on to the ED policy like the rest of the Lower Ivies instead of fearlessly adopting EA like Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Caltech, and MIT? Princeton might have been popular a long time ago, but now it is losing many cross-admits to other top schools. In the end, it's just a paper tiger.</p>
<p>Sears and WorldCom were broke. Princeton, on a per student basis, is the richest school in the nation. What business school do you attend?</p>
<p>To be clear, your saying that we should discard all of the independent research done by those organizations who are in the business of doing research, and instead accept your version of the facts? Sorry, I'm putting my money on those companies that have been around awhile and have had some measure of profitability over the years. Because, in your terms, your asking us to compare reputable, stable companies and their performance with what your piggybank?</p>
<p>Look, if HYP were stocks, and H sold for $28 a share, Yale would sell for $27.38 and Pton for $26.08 based on NBER data. So you're fighting over less than two bucks.</p>
<p>Harvard is $28, Yale is $27.38, Stanford is $26.94, Caltech is $26.32, MIT is $26.24, and Princeton is $26.08. </p>
<p>The difference between Princeton and Harvard is more than the difference between Princeton and Brown.</p>
<p>Not quite Menza. If we were stocks no one would accept an evaluation from
NBER because it is biased (authored by a Harvard employed). Thats my point. In business, entities that perform valuations must be unbiased and certainly not affiliated with the entity they are investigating. Thats why I place emphasis on the independent entities I have cited. </p>
<p>When you look at the results of the independent researchers, your stock values come out something like this:</p>
<p>Princeton $29
Harvard $28
Yale $26</p>
<p>Uber, please tell me you don't aspire to be a business major. lol</p>
<p>
[quote]
The difference between Princeton and Harvard is more than the difference between Princeton and Brown.
[/quote]
Interesting, I never looked at it that way. It feels to me like a bigger drop to Brown from PTon than from H to Pton, though I don't dispute your assesment.</p>
<p>alphacdcd, I'm in basic agreement with your positive assesment of Pton -- I love the school -- but I must say that the genius of the NBER study is that it is a mere calculation from survey data, and is about as unbiased as a survey can be. It doesn't really rate quality, it rates what the "market" of students thinks about quality. These are not the same, all the more so when you start getting into personal fit or what you plan to study.</p>
<p>Envy makes for terrible stock picking</p>
<p>Mensa, Studies are only as good as what you put in them. And, in any business, when the report is written by someone who is affiliated with a member of the very group he is studying, then that study is tainted. Don't take my word on it, ask someone in journalism or business.</p>
<p>Why you and Uber cannot accept the findings of multiple, independent researchers amazes me. The study you refer to has been dismissed by all top GCs as Harvard hype. You will not see it in any of the top GC offices or in any of their newsletters. (Hint: Look at the websites of the top NE prep schools and look at what college prep materials they recommend - you will not see your study anywhere). The only person touting it and trying to defend it is a certain H booster whose name starts with B. (lol).</p>
<p>Well if Princeton is as great as you say it is, and if "top" guidance counselors all recommend Princeton, then tell me why less people are applying to Princeton every year? Why is Princeton becoming increasingly unpopular among top students and why is Princeton's yield dropping? Is the market telling you something that you don't know?</p>
<p>By the way, I vehemently disagree with your twisted reasoning that only NE prep school counselors are credible. It's that kind of elitism that turns Princeton off from so many bright kids who are not into that type of superficiality and nauseating snobbery. No wonder the eating clubs are so controversial..........anyone with any sense of dignity would throw up all over the place.</p>