Liberal Arts College or University - self-discovery

Parents Social Lounge
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<p>I acquired my degrees from very large public universities. I sat through my fair share of 200-500 student intro classes, and smaller seminars 'pawned off' to grad students. </p>

<p>I'm not necessarily averse to that model, but my suspicion is that a liberal arts college might offer a better route for self-discovery -- particularly for my very young, uncertain but fiercely intelligent senior who
i) has demonstrated interest and ability in ostensibly disparate areas (e.g. - Environmental Science, International Relations), but
ii) isn't the best student. At least, not yet.</p>

<p>I'd welcome hearing from folks who can speak knowledgeably, pro or con, about the LAC model.</p>

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<p>If those subjects are less common ones, then the student needs to check carefully that the schools (whether LACs or universities) have good offerings in the subjects in question (as opposed to just a few courses for students taking them as breadth courses).</p>

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<p>Reread the original post. A parent looking for a college for the HS senior, right? You need to figure the purpose of attending college. The primary purpose is to get an indepth knowledge of one, sometimes two, fields- the major. Most entering college students either don’t know or will change their major after the experiences in college courses. A “fiercely” intelligent student will have demonstrated their intellectual capacity by performing well or at least testing highly. If exceptional test scores without matching grades the student needs to learn how to study or will fail at any college.</p>

<p>Self discovery is something that can happen anywhere, in college or not. Perhaps you mean figuring out who one is and what path to take. Some HS students have the maturity to be self directed. Some may want/need more nurturing in college than others. </p>

<p>I think you need a reality check. It does not sound like you have a gifted child. Parents often consider their child special when they in reality are one of many with similar ability. By now the schools would have noticed any exceptional ability and you could discuss potential colleges with them. Most kids will have well rounded abilities in many areas. </p>

<p>The bottom line. Your child needs a school that offers majors that he will consider potential careers. ucb… said it- look for schools that offer the desired subjects. Size of school may matter more than LAC or U setting. Many public Us are smaller than the state flagship and offer an LAC like setting. Some LACs are large institutions.</p>

<p>What does the student want? Is he ready to settle down and study, even things he dislikes? It won’t matter where he goes unless he is willing to do the work.</p>

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<p>OP, I think you were looking for a more generalized discussion of LAC vs. U, knowing that there are pros and cons to both models. </p>

<p>I attended a very small LAC, only 500 students. Professors knew me by name, counseled me personally with academic issues, sat with college students in the dining hall for meals, attended the plays, concerts, etc. at the college. There was mutual respect between students, faculty and staff. Overall it was a genuinely great place to learn, both academically and introspectively. </p>

<p>I tell my children that I learned as much from my college experiences outside the classroom as I did in each class. I was intelligent, motivated to learn since I was paying my own way through school (back in the dark ages when that was still possible), but the whole life thing of living 6 hours from home, attending a school where I walked in not knowing a single person, figuring out all the responsibilities of being an adult (like not blowing your paycheck on fun when you know you need to pay tuition instead) that was all powerful stuff. </p>

<p>Fast forward xx number of years, and my DD starts looking at schools. I took her to both large U and small LACs to let her start getting a feel for what type of campus she was looking for. She hated the thought of a large U. “They have their own city buses!” she exclaimed in dismay. " I want to go to a COLLEGE, not a CITY" was her discovery. </p>

<p>She thought about going to Ga Tech, but decided the LAC model was more her style, and ended up not even applying to Ga Tech.</p>

<p>She is happy with her choice, her school has 2000 students, beautiful campus and her major is well supported with new facilities and labs and outstanding faculty. She already has a lab position and will be promoted to more detailed work and will definitely get a research position in sophomore year.</p>

<p>I have learned that there are so many great schools out there, with unique characteristics, traditions, learning models, etc. I encourage you to get your child to step foot on different kinds of schools to see what interests him/her. </p>

<p>I know there are many who enjoy large U, there are many great opportunities at large U, and it is really up to the student to figure out what type of learning environment works best for them.</p>

<p>Enjoy this journey with your child. It was a special time for DD and I to drive around our region and get to talk about all kinds of things along the way. Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>Thanks, powercropper, for sharing your insight (and answering the question asked).</p>

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<p>One kid attended a lac, the other, a mid size u.
They both are doing well & I think the schools could have been reversed with similar results, although the mid size U does have more classes ( & profs to choose from) available in area of interest.
At an LAC, even a popular major like biology, may have fewer than ten profs.
If one goes on sabbatical or doesn’t get tenure and loses their work permit (which happened with my Ds advisor, he had to go back to Canada) it can throw a monkey wrench into their plans.</p>

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<p>OP, my schooling was just like yours – my U had a lecture hall that seated 800 :eek:. OTOH, my D just graduated from an LAC. From what you’ve said about your son, I think he’d do well at an LAC.</p>

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<p>LACs are terrific for “explorers.” Because of the small size, and because LACs often somehow seem to embody a common culture or value system, there is inevitable cross-pollination among disciplines. Also because of the small size, and the personal touch that goes with that, it’s easier for a student to talk with a professor in a different discipline and perhaps get a feel for what it would be like, or even do a little exploring without having to make an official change. </p>

<p>Also, I don’t know about you, but I met my advisor exactly once, when I had to get his signature on my major declaration form. At an LAC, advisors can actually play an important part in the student’s education. D spent lots of time with hers, exploring possibilities, getting ideas and feedback. That experience was very valuable for her, and it was the kind of relationship that’s much harder to get at a U. </p>

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<p>Here again, the small personal environment would work in his favor. Professors actually get to know individual undergrads, and in a class of 10, your son will not be able to fly under the radar. There were several times when my D was called out by a prof who found her work to be acceptable, but knew she could do better – and insisted on it. The individual attention helps students to get the most they can out of their education.</p>

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<p>Hi Expat - both my boys are attending small LACS and are very happy at their chosen schools. My older son is a theater major and his largest class has been about 20. He is very fortunate to be at a LAC that’s part of the 5 College Consortium in Amherst/Northampton/Holyoke Mass so for him, it’s best for both worlds. One of his thesis advisors is a faculty member at Amherst College, the other two at his own college. The Amherst College prof even meets him for coffee now and again. He’s loved the intimate atmosphere.</p>

<p>My younger son is at a small-ish LAC in Maine (yes, he’s the king of LL Bean gear now!). Right now, he’s a pre-med track - probably a chemistry major. His largest class his first semester had 40. He’s gotten to know faculty for all four courses and has thrived there. </p>

<p>For both boys, all their classes have been taught by faculty. Both colleges encourage their students to take different classes to explore possibilities rather than lock into a major from the beginning. As LasMa said above, given the small size of classes, they can’t fly under the radar which both guys appreciate. </p>

<p>My older son does really well in classes he <em>wants</em> to do well in (he’d live happily ever after not taking another science class) so was far from a stellar student, although extremely gifted in the arts. My younger son is a good all-round student who does well. He’s smart - not brilliant - but works very hard. </p>

<p>I’d love to hear where your son ends up!</p>

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<p>Your son sounds like he is intellectually curious. The atmosphere and opportunities in many LAC’s begin the moment they enter as a freshman. My children’s LAC has a required program for 3 weeks in August called Autumn term. They take a class every morning; afternoon and evenings are spent with team building activities, social events, community service events, dorm competitions, drug and alcohol education, etc. The freshman and student facilitators are the only students on campus during this time. The class that they choose to take is taught by their mentor for the 3 weeks, this mentor will also teach a required global perspectives class during fall and spring semester and will remain their mentor for the year. They get to know eachother very well. The professors in this college are required to involved their students in research, beginning as freshman. There are also a number of required college sponsored events that must be attended in freshman and sophomore year. These range from music, theater, art, history, guest speakers, movies, etc. There are usually several offered per week. This helps to expose them to different viewpoints. The clubs, including budgets are run by the students. Career services starts programs and meetings with the students as freshman and offer services to them as alum. The personal touch, opportunities to develop your own projects and courses, plan and lead spring break community service projects, the relationships with mentors are things that both my children say they love the most.</p>

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<p>I too went to a large school. I had a class with 1300 in the lectures. When I took my son to the accepted students day at his first choice LAC, I still wasn’t convinced. They had all the departments set up in the large gym. As we walked over to the department for his major, the head of the department took one look at his name tag and exclaimed his name, “I was just talking about you with coach!” After a long discussion with the professor, my son and I continued on. I looked at him and said “At my college I was 577261.” It took me years to get to know my professors. My son is on first name basis with that professor and others in his department.</p>

<p>That is what small LAC’s have to offer.</p>

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<p>But medium to big colleges can offer these experience to students who make an effort. I took 4 classes freshman year. One freshman seminar with big name professor, one language course with someone who also taught lit classes, one lecture course with a fabulous lecturer (did meet the professor and argue with him about the merits of The French Lieutenant’s Woman at a dinner in our dorm), one other lecture course - intro to comp sci, that had extremely entertaining lectures by the professor followed up with pretty good sections taught by grad students. The next year, I was in a small major related to the freshman seminar and my largest class was a lecture of about 40.</p>

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<p>OP, I wanted to give you a flavor for the kind of attention that students can get at an LAC. (This took place at Earlham College, but it could have happened at a lot of LACs.) See the last paragraph of post #13. This is a parent of an HS senior who’d been admitted, but not yet enrolled. Note how professors and a college student got involved with a student who wasn’t even “theirs” yet. This tells you why bright kids who are “not quite” great students yet, can thrive at an LAC. </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/earlham-college/1555055-class-2018-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/earlham-college/1555055-class-2018-a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Within the classification of LACs can be schools of 1,000 students or 5,000 or 6,000.
The smaller schools seem claustrophobic to me, but I don’t disagree that some students will enjoy that environment, especially if they felt lost in a large high school.</p>

<p>A Lac of 1,500 may seem stifling by jr yr if it is isolated but an urban lac wont seem to be so much of a bubble to many students.</p>

<p>Mid size schools of 8,000 - 15,000, can seem to have the best of both worlds. Small classes, no TA’s, but enough of a cohort to get special interest groups going.
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Specialized majors such as astrobiology, may be impossible at a tiny school where depts by necessity are more general.
Small to mid size universities, may also have separate colleges for students who wish to focus on engineering, business, or environmental science for example.</p>

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<p>At the open house of one LAC we visited [at</a> the end of August](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/class-20xx-community/1469626-parents-hs-class-2014-3-0-3-3-gpa-post16351539.html#post16351539"]at”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/class-20xx-community/1469626-parents-hs-class-2014-3-0-3-3-gpa-post16351539.html#post16351539), my son spent lunch chatting with the head of the Environmental Science program. That’s when
I decided a LAC might be a fine idea.</p>

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<p>A LAC with a convenient cross registration agreement with a large university may be another way to get a “best of both worlds” situation (i.e. smaller frosh/soph classes, but ability to take more unusual advanced courses that can be absent at smaller schools). However, care in researching cross registration situations needs to be taken, since there can be commuting hassles, misaligned academic calendars and final exam schedules, or limitations on cross registration imposed by one or both schools.</p>

<p>Barnard (with Columbia) is perhaps the most convenient example, but Barnard is a women-only school.</p>

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<p>UCB, my older son has that arrangement with the five college consortium in Amherst as mentioned previously and loves it. It’s definitely the best of both worlds. Public transportation between the five is very good and the academic calendars are more or less in sync - it’s worked nicely for him.</p>

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<p>Learning a lot outside the classroom applies to ALL schools, big and small. Large U’s have many more opportunities to explore diverse fields- they offer so many more subjects than (especially small) LACs. More than the standard European languages, different cultures’ literature and so many majors not available at LACs. Art types can be roommates with engineers… It doesn’t matter if a lecture is 50 or 500 students- it is the small discussion sessions that matter. And grad students can be excellent sources of interpreting a professor’s lectures or helping with problem solving by giving a second viewpoint.</p>

<p>Different personalities fit different environments. SO glad I had the big U opportunities- including research labs.</p>

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<p>At most quality liberal arts colleges (steer clear of those which heavily rely on adjunct labor), students are forced to interact with a much greater variety of people than they would at a large, multi-faceted research university. When I attended my LAC, I had friends from a variety of different interests ranging from someone who was on a full tuition scholarship for her writing to a guy who poured over economics journals and often wrote econ arguments on his mirror for his roommate to respond to. At my current university, despite the fact only 14% of students major in a non biological STEM field, only two of my friends come from outside these disciplines. Part of that may be due to my status as a transfer and my involvement in a STEM sorority, but even those who started as a freshman in a STEM field report similar disparities in who they spend time with. </p>

<p>That being said, if a student develops an intense interest in a less common subject at a LAC, he or she may find fewer people who share that interest. In my case, I was one of three environmental science majors also interested in geology, one of whom I couldn’t stand. Transferring to a school with a 15 story building devoted to the geosciences and finding people who were excited to spend four hours in a lab examining minerals was and still is exhilarating. The opportunities that the department, which happily admits B students, affords are almost unparalleled at all but a few extremely selective LACs. However, if the student is not proactive about these things, he or she will not get the opportunity to participate.</p>

<p>Since your student sounds as though he’s interested in a broad range of subjects, I’ll argue that LACs often promote closer interdepartmental interaction by necessity. At smaller schools, it seems that the professors are almost forced to interact with those in diametrically opposite disciplines since there may be only 6 faculty in a department whereas the same department at a state flagship might have 22 faculty, 45 grad students, all in its own building in an area of campus primarily occupied by those of similar disciplines (UCLA is a great example of this). For instance, last spring I took an English course and my professor asked to speak with me after class. Rather than critiquing my analysis or a paper, as she was apt to do, she told me that the geology professor talked to her about how I asked him for some clarification about the poles after I read a book devoted to the subject. Well her daughter was interested in earth science, so could she borrow the book for a few weeks? I’ve never seen or heard of anything like that happening at a large university, but it often happens at smaller schools, particularly LACs. </p>

<p>As it stands, the choice is not between only mega sized state flagships/ larger provincial schools and small, isolated liberal arts colleges. One of the best parts about the American system of higher education is the immensity of quality choices that exist (unfortunately one of the worst is the exorbitant costs of many of these choices!). As a shameless plug, I’ll encourage you to check out Oxford College of Emory. Even if your son is done with his college app process, the school is unique in that it’s both a LAC and research university and might help you and him decide which environment is better for a B student with some academic promise.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it may also have to do with the fact that you are a more advanced student now, taking a higher percentage of courses with mainly other people in your major than as a frosh in courses with students in several (intended) majors.</p>

<p>Also, frosh at many residential schools are more likely to live in campus dorms, which increases interaction with students in other majors; students at higher class levels are more likely to live off campus, reducing the “major-random mixing”.</p>

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I took around 50% of my courses this semester in STEM disciplines. The other three courses were in fields ranging from sexuality to international relations. I also live in the dorms, and for most of first semester lived with a communications major. Again, I said that those in the same field as myself but who started out as freshmen seem to primarily hang out with others in their field or closely related ones. This may just be due to a limited sample size, or lack of close observation on my part, but that’s what I’ve noticed. </p>

<p>At most residential LACs, students are forced to interact with people from other disciplines even if they don’t have any courses together after the first two years. Much of that is due to the small size of the campus.</p>