<p>
[quote]
If Adm Fowler can prevent even more more instance like this happening to a Naval Academy graduate or someone he/she supports in the field or at sea with his changes, he needs everyone's support until what he has done proves otherwise.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Stop making sense. You're interrupting the pity party....</p>
<p>^^^ oh my gosh! A blast from the past!!! thought you left us poor folks to party in our pity by ourselves!!!!</p>
<p>what gives???
glad you have returned to your senses and to CC!!!
We were missing your input!</p>
<p>back to the 'Pity party"</p>
<p>....and on that note, will ammend post #78... things are not any better...now they are not getting fed at all....apparently no service to their squad table last night (...[worried mom].... you don't think it's because of my griping, do you??? oh my... :eek: )</p>
<p>Will say 5 more Hail Mary's tonight....</p>
<p>
[quote]
Khaki.</p>
<p>By definition: drab, yellowish-brown, originating from the Persian word khak, which means dust or ashes.</p>
<p>Used predominantly in military uniforms around the world and, more recently, as a color on pants and skirts that can go with pretty much anything, except maybe gray, depending on whom you ask....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>FWIW, my opinions on the Khaki changes...</p>
<p>Even way back in my day, we Mids were complaining that we ALL should be allowed to wear Khakis, at least as a replacement for WUBD (Working Uniform Blue (Delta), since then renamed Summer Working Blue), if not for both WUBD and WUBA (Working Uniform Blue (Alpha), since then renamed Winter Working Blue). </p>
<p>The reason was (and remains) simple: WUBD/SWB is not utilized ANYWHERE in the Fleet, and as such is really a waste of resources. At least WUBA/WWB is utilized in Navy school settings (of which there are PLENTY out in the Fleet). Additionally, we believed that as junior officers we should dress the part.</p>
<p>Now, with all this having been said, I certainly see the logic in the new policy, although I still lean toward having everyone wear Khakis for the reasons given. Oh, well. Some is better than none, I guess.</p>
<p>Oh, and USNA should also do away with the odious "Campus Jacket" (introduced in MY class, I'm sorry to say). The standard-issue "Eisenhower" jacket, in both black and khaki, is the Fleet standard. The Campus Jacket sits unused in the closet after graduation.</p>
<p>And before anyone brings it up, Full Dress Blues don't count. Those uniforms (the ones you see in parades) are THE traditional uniform of USNA as well as of the Fleet of Days Past, and doesn't fall under the "waste of fabric" category I put WUBD and Campus Jackets under.</p>
<p>My opinion, worth precisely what you paid for it. :D</p>
<p>What are the campus jackets?
the seem to have one that is the eisenhower jacket (the one they wear their company patch on) - is there another one?</p>
<p>Now don't go changing all those nice uniforms-
first, I finally figured out which are the working whites, the WUBD's and the WUBA's.... you are gonna mess me all up now!!!!!!!!!!
second- I just love those blue uniforms!!!!!!!!!
third- kacki's look so ordinary....<br>
now if you ask me, I would have them in their choker whites all the time! (my Mid would kill me, but that is my vote! :) )</p>
<p>FYI: My plebe informed us on Friday that they wouldn't be allowed to wear company patches......something about being united.</p>
<p>Not any vocalized complaints regarding lack of food, though, and actually expected things to be much worse than they've been.</p>
<p>^^^^ so does that mean they have to take the company patches off the jackets they use now?</p>
<p>^^^^^And now what happens with the patches that the upperclass already have on jackets - tailor shop going to have to remove all of those too?</p>
<p>Anyone know how much all of these uniform changes are costing our Mids?</p>
<p>
[quote]
What are the campus jackets?
the seem to have one that is the eisenhower jacket (the one they wear their company patch on) - is there another one?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, the Ike jacket is the classic Ike jacket. The Campus jacket was a black zippered jacket with knit cuffs, waist, and neck. In my day, a "USNA" patch was sewn on the left breast over a patch with your Class year. Last time I was on the Yard and jackets were in use, it looked as if the CJ was still in use, only now the Company patch was on the left breast. I would have sworn it had the same knit cuffs and waist. Did I see wrong?</p>
<p>
[quote]
My plebe informed us on Friday that they wouldn't be allowed to wear company patches......something about being united.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Now that, along with the apparent ban on "Beat Army!", is just plain nuts. There is no argument whoever came up with that can mount that will convince me otherwise.</p>
<p>
[quote]
so does that mean they have to take the company patches off the jackets they use now?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Almost assuredly yes. That will leave a nice mark where the patch was, too.</p>
<p>As for the cost? Well, removing them can be done for free. Putting them back on when they change their mind again, however........ well, TOO MUCH if you ask me. This is just plain silly.</p>
<p>ETA: Somewhat along the same lines.... Is there any indication as to whether anything new (be it training or otherwise) will be initiated to take up the time the Mids will now allegedly be saving from these other ECA's, or is the assumption just that they will be "freed up" to study?</p>
<p>Patch removal = great idea.</p>
<p>Now they can actually be used on liberty!</p>
<p>LOL. That's the spirit! ;)</p>
<p>Are these actual Ike jackets, Jad?</p>
<p>Yes, with patches put on....one side has class year, in the front is your last name and company patch/logo.</p>
<p>If they are going to issue us a ike jacket, it might as well be in line with the fleet.</p>
<p>
[quote]
ETA: Somewhat along the same lines.... Is there any indication as to whether anything new (be it training or otherwise) will be initiated to take up the time the Mids will now allegedly be saving from these other ECA's, or is the assumption just that they will be "freed up" to study?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>sure!
Mando meals...
Mando fun....
Mando tailor visits (for all those patch removals....)..</p>
<p>study??? you want them to study????</p>
<p>(sorry... devil made me do it! :o )</p>
<p>Ah, yes. Mando fun. I remember that. Mandatory pep rallies. Muster will be taken. </p>
<p>Yeah. That'll inspire us. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
If they are going to issue us a ike jacket, it might as well be in line with the fleet.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen! If only that had been the case in my day and for years afterwards!</p>
<p>I'm glad to hear they changed it. Along the same lines, you are better off not having any patches on it. Why? Because unless they are now authorized out in the Fleet, the marks remaining after you remove the four-year-old patches will stand out like a sore thumb and tag you as a USNA grad, but not in a good way. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.....</p>
<p>The excuse of "unity", however, is pretty damned lame.</p>
<p>I guess that I am an unfeeling, uncaring mid mom.</p>
<p>I don't believe that the cuts in Habitat for Humanity, Glee Club, and judo are world-ending. I sent my plebe to a military academy, he took an oath of service on I-Day, and he didn't go there expecting to perform in "Penzance" or "Cats" anything of the sort. </p>
<p>We're at war. The Navy is going to be shouldering a larger burden in the future with regards to the Middle East peacekeeping. Somehow I don't see where Glee Club fits into where he'll probably be in 7 or 8 years - stationed aboard a carrier in the Persian Gulf.</p>
<p>Maybe his lack of participation in Orchestra or some such program will make him a 'boring' or 'one-dimensional' officer. I sincerely doubt that. I ask the Academy to train him to be the best Naval Officer he can possibly be - and in a time of war I believe that mission supercedes extracurricular activities. </p>
<p>I'm not a hysterical mom; I read last week about the supply problems and sent off a care package of protein bars, shakes and multivitamins. No big deal. He'll be fine. Always has been, always will be.</p>
<p>welcome Gonavy2011-</p>
<p>hate to disagree with your very first post (please forgive me)....(btw...your gender..."not saying"....think your cover may be blown a bit...you know, unfeeling, uncaring mid mom and all....)</p>
<p>anyway, and with all due respect, even the commander and chief gets some down time now and again. Bet he even gets to attend a football game here and there, thanks to you and me and airforce 1. Crawford, Camp david, AA meetings.... yup, sounds like he gets to keep his ECA's!</p>
<p>don't even get me started.
:mad:</p>
<p>no, it won't kill them.
but it won't replenish their spirit either.
for some, that glee club is where they can find some peace.
or maybe it is with the chaplin groups.
or maybe staring into space with the astronomy club wondering if NASA is something to consider.</p>
<p>Sorry- it's not enough to feed the body and mind.... one has to feed the soul as well.<br>
And a leader without a soul is headed but one place, IMO.</p>
<p>They are still students.
Students training for service and war, I grant you.
But 17, 18 , 19, 20-23 year old students nevertheless.
You can still train, mold, prepare, develop- without having to go cold turkey. (i pomised no more food posts.... I know... I'm sorry! It's that devil on my back) </p>
<p>And if the natives are not getting restless right now, the tigers are sure getting hungry. :eek:</p>
<p>(see... did it again. That darn devil..... :o )</p>
<p><em>shrug</em> - I don't mind disagreement; open discussion is the best route to enlightenment. ((and, BTW, it's Commander-in-Chief, abbreviated CIC, not "and")).</p>
<p>I think that sending USNA glee clubs to 3-day out of state retreats when there are severe funding problems in the Army and Marines and troops are returning for third and fourth tours of duty is, well, ridiculous. And, yes, I certainly realize that the glee club retreat's costs don't add up to much, but it's priorities. And right now I think that the priorities need to be shifted.</p>
<p>It's not Oberlin College, it's not St. John's. It's the military, and it isn't supposed to be soothing or peaceful or reflective. </p>
<p>In the interest of disclosure, we are a military family from way back. One grandpa was USNA 1960 (subs), the other grandpa was a Naval aviator who flew two tours off the Enterprise in Vietnam. The third (stepdad) was a 22-year veteran Army MSgt. I was an Army brat, his dad was a Navy Junior - we have 24 different moves between us.</p>
<p>navy2010 - you crack me up! Thanks for the levity. I appreciate your keeping us from getting too maudlin. </p>
<p>GoNavy2011 - #1 - Thanks for posting, although I don't necessarily agree with you. The point that it most important for me to make is that any one of the "gripes" that we have seen discussed/argued about this past week is not a deal-breaker or worthy of the uproar, but rather the wholesale "hammer" coming down on one and all and in almost all aspects of the Mid's daily lives. </p>
<p>Food - none of them will starve, I know that, you know that and the Mids know that. It may turn out that the 15 mando meals/week will be what it takes to make the difference to a plebe that can't get up the nerve to even have a discussion with an upperclass. The extra time with his squad-mates may be what keeps him in when he doubts if he can make it. Got it....let's give it a try, but anyone can see that there was inadequate preparation, on somebody's part...let the heads roll. No excuses. </p>
<p>Decreased liberty - hard to argue with this one. Too many upperclass coming in drunk, weekends and weekdays. Easy solution, no weekday liberty. I got no problem there. </p>
<p>Mando study hours 8-11pm - now we're getting into more of a "grey area." What is the purpose of mando study hours....was the overall GPA of the academy grads falling? What about the Mids that have good grades and they want to spend the study hour time doing extra work-outs to better their PRT scores? Or to try and qualify for a SEAL spot? Or the Mid that can't swim the best and is working on his 40-year swim? The point here is that at some time we have to let these soon-to-be Navy and Marine Corps officers learn how ot manage their time. If a Firstie is still failing the PRT or has lousy grades, it's too late for mando study hours to help him and he/she should be gone. </p>
<p>ECA's - this is a tough one. Which do you cut/cut-back and which does the Academy support? WP seems to have no problem supporting or at least tolerating multiples of ECA's (the list is incredble) and shoulder the lion's share of the boots on the ground fight in Iraq. I don't know for sure, but I'm betting that the cadets at WP are very much aware that there is a war on even when they're singing in a glee club concert or in a judo competition. And their Moms know that too. No one on this list, or any other I hope, thinks that because their Mid or Cadet participates in Mids for Kids or a production of the Pirates of Penzance that they are exempt from their duty or that they are somehow now unfit or unprepared for that duty. </p>
<p>Don't mistake concern voiced on this list for lack of awareness for the duty that awaits our sons and daughters. </p>
<p>I have had the privilege of being associated with THE Academy for more than 25 years in many capacities. In all that time I have never seen or heard the groundswell of concern that I have heard in the past 10 days. I'm not so gullible that a few grumbles about the lousy food would make me lose any sleep, or even the loss of weekday liberty. It's the big picture that I'm trying to figure out. My Mid will be gone in a year, honestly this really doesn't affect him much. But we'll be going to reunions, events on the Yard for many more years to come and I want the officers that graduate in 2020 to be just as prepared as the ones that graduated in 2007. I have not heard that the last few years has produced lesser-quality officers - has anyone else? Maybe if the fleet is giving feedback that the USNA grads are not able to hold their own against the previous grads or ROTC grads, then that's a different story and I will stand corrected.</p>
<p>And before I get blasted - I'm not saying that everything was sunshine and roses under the previous leadership. The new Supe has the authority and responsibility to make whatever changes necessary to fulfill the mission of the Academy. But was the problem that the old rules were wrong or was it that the old rules were not being uniformly enforced?</p>
<p>Welcome GoNavy2011</p>
<p>Have to also to ask some questions in respose.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I ask the Academy to train him to be the best Naval Officer he can possibly be
[/quote]
Maybe you ask that but what did he want - maybe you didn't ask, maybe he didn't tell. Having just had one finish Plebe year - they need those "distractions" It gives them peace when they have been stressed to the max and are still being stressed by upper class. They are someone when they are in their ECA's - believe it or not one of the few places that a Plebe can find leadership opportunities. </p>
<p>Why did the Academy want to see applicants that were involved in many different activities during high school? Why not just take an athlete who was team captain or limit your appointees to military activities; JROTC or Sea Cadets? Seems they are looking for a certain type of student then but today they are telling those same kids who accepted their offer - turn it off, that is not who we want you to be. We have been at war for the past 6 years. (October 7, 2001 This date marked the beginning of the Bush Administration's War on Terrorism.) Why all of this now? Even Mr. Bush has stated that life must go on as normal. </p>
<p>Do you want you son following and not thinking on his own for 3 years and then suddenly be expected to lead and make decisions when he never had the opportunity before?</p>
<p>BTW much of the funding for ECA's comes from the Alumni Association Foundation Parent Fund - at least I know that was were the funding for the Orchestra came from - also, many of the performance groups receive substantial honorariums for performances out in public.</p>
<p>
[quote]
it isn't supposed to be soothing or peaceful or reflective.
[/quote]
Personally if it is not reflective then we have all lost. To be reflective and turn to ones soul is what makes us human.</p>
<p>I think that the big picture is this:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>We're going to be pulling most (not all) of the U.S. ground troops out of Iraq (and probably Afghanistan) over the next three years. This will be due to both political and practical reasons.</p></li>
<li><p>The ground troops - 145,000+ of them - will be replaced by larger carrier groups in the Persian Gulf. Not the same numbers, but a larger presence than currently stationed there. More Navy, less Army/Marines.</p></li>
<li><p>There have been problems with recent USNA grads and their ability to command. The "five and dive" attitude is prevalent among JOs, and is seen as a direct result of a civilian-type, scholarship mentality. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>An example of the 'civilian mentality': my plebe was told by a 1/C cadre member not to sit near the D&B corps during football games. Why? Because, he said, during the football games other mids throw food and drinks at them... there is a lot of resentment in the Brigade against the D&B because they are excused from so many company duties to perform, rehearse, etc. These duties then fall on their non-D&B squad members.</p>
<ol>
<li>Funding - how can ECAs be justified when combat vets are waiting 6-12 months for basic medical services? How can you rationalize sending the jazz ensemble out of state when veterans are waiting 6 months for a basic leg or arm prosthesis?</li>
</ol>